Statins after stroke recovery?

[madusmacus]

Hi All,
Been a while chatting since i got my BS under control a year ago
Saddly i was told i had a stroke december 2020 and i have recovered from that well (touch wood)
Problem is i have been put on life long statiins again with no discussion about this
Atorvastatin hurt me so was replaced with Pravastatin but...
over the last year my HbA1c has rockedted from 5.4 to 6.3 and my body tells me its the statins as my diet is stable
I take as instructed the statin at night
My morning fasting glucose is 7.8mmol and weird toe feelings are back again (started B12 seems a bit better)

My question is - does anyone have any 100% reason for using statins after a stroke?

Seems to make sense but I dont know and to be honest im scared to stop and im scared to continue
Happy new thingy to all :¬)

 

[NicoleC1971]

You could ask how many people with known cvd (i.e. you) does it take to benefit from taking a statin? The Number Needed to Treat in other words.
Another good one is how much longer will I live if I take this statin for 5 years? The Mortality benefit. I believe this is 4 days. You may just be changing the cause of death but possibly not the date of that event and there are downsides if you do not tolerate sstatins well.
The fact that you've had a stroke indicates you could have clots elsewhere in your arteries which a statin may help to prevent breaking loose possibly because they help calm inflammatory processes but I think you should ask the questions I mention to find out before balancing up the risk and benefits.
If you do decide to take them then I'd advise you to supplement with Co Q10 or ubiquinol as the statin will strip you of this important micronutrient as well as your LDL C.
Dr Malcolm McKendrick has written a very readable book on what really causes CV disease - in his opinion its not ldl cholesterol. IT is called The Clot Thickens.
Finally keeping blood sugars well controlled mainly via diet is the best way to avoid damage to your arteries as well as not smoking, avoiding air pollution and cocaine!

 

[madusmacus]

@NicoleC1971, thank you for replying :¬) all very good points
i have taken coq10 all the time i was taking the statins
i am seeing my geriactric doctor next wedness day i will ask how much benifit would i get from contnuing statins compared to all the things happening to me
given all the discussioins about ldl hdl etc nowdays im confused
my stroke was defined as cryptogenic bilatteral cereulum (meaning we dont have a clue)
i have pulled my CTA data apart and found stenosed vertebral artery origins but thats another story
many thanks again have a nice weekend :¬) if poss :¬)

 

[Alexandra100]

to be honest im scared to stop and im scared to continue

Hello @madusmacus, I really sympathise. From time to time I also struggle with this decision, whenever my GP tries to persuade me to take a statin. In your position I would do a lot of Googling before my next consultation, trying to pick out reputable sites and avoiding internet crazies. Could you consider further lowering your carbs and increasing you exercise, in the hope of counter-acting the effect of your statin on your bg?

 

[madusmacus]

@Alexandra100, thanks for reply yep im going to have to discus this more and in the mean time ill have to do more walking
i stopped walking due to leg acheing again and weird toes - toes seem a bit better now after one week of b12 (who knows)
through away low carb things going back to <20/30 carbs a day now - maybe xmas didnt help there was cheating :¬)
but fasting 7.7mmol makes me sad

 

[Alexandra100]

fasting 7.7mmol makes me sad

Me too!!!

 

[Alexandra100]

going back to <20/30 carbs a day now

Sounds a good plan, though not easy, as I know myself from following it (more or less) for 3-4 years. You might find encouragement in Dr Richard K Bernstein's book, much of it freely available online:
http://www.diabetes-book.com/normal-blood-sugars/
Dr B says:
"DIABETIC NEUROPATHIES
Diabetic neuropathies seem to improve in two phases—a rapid partial improvement that may occur within weeks, followed by sustained very slow improvement that goes on for years if blood sugars continue to remain normal. This is most apparent with numbness or pain in the toes. Some people will even comment,“ I know right away if my blood sugar is high, because my toes feel numb again.” On the other hand, several patients with total numbness of their feet have complained of severe pain after several months of near-normal blood sugars. This continues for a number of months and eventually resolves as sensation returns. It is as if nerves generate pain signals while they heal or “sprout.” The experience may be very frightening and distressing if you haven’t been warned that it might occur."
Good luck!

 

[madusmacus]

@Alexandra100 thanks again,
ill downlaod that link now and read
i started spacing out my 500mg berberine to morning and noon (1 gram total)
i think it was causing to much drop to take this at night with my statins
this morning my fasting was 7.0mmol not great but early days
no magic bullet :¬)

 

[Daphne917]

Hi All,
Been a while chatting since i got my BS under control a year ago
Saddly i was told i had a stroke december 2020 and i have recovered from that well (touch wood)
Problem is i have been put on life long statiins again with no discussion about this
Atorvastatin hurt me so was replaced with Pravastatin but...
over the last year my HbA1c has rockedted from 5.4 to 6.3 and my body tells me its the statins as my diet is stable
I take as instructed the statin at night
My morning fasting glucose is 7.8mmol and weird toe feelings are back again (started B12 seems a bit better)

My question is - does anyone have any 100% reason for using statins after a stroke?

Seems to make sense but I dont know and to be honest im scared to stop and im scared to continue
Happy new thingy to all :¬)

I was prescribed Pravastatin and my hba1c went from 48 to 54 within 6 months. I came off them due to other side effects and my hba1c soon reduced to non diabetic levels where it has remained for approx 9 years.

 

[madusmacus]

@Daphne917, thanks
especialy about the reduction when stopped
i dont even know why they put me on statins after a stroke
quote "stroke ptients do better on statins" so take them stupid man and shutup (my take on it)
they didnt even bother to check any lipids let alone vLDL
and i paid private
seems i need to get off statins its hurting me
ill talk to geriactric doctor about this important thing wednessday (private again but little hope of anything usefull)

 

[Alexandra100]

private again but little hope of anything usefull

Would it be worth abandoning this unsatisfactory doctor and finding a better? In your position, I would take positive pleasure in cancelling him. Private consultations don't come cheap. IMO you should be getting a better experience in return for the fees you are paying.
Here is another link. By co-incidence this thoughtful article about deciding for or against possible treatments, statins in particular, arrived today in my inbox:
https://johnmandrola.substack.com/?r=ism9x&utm_campaign=pub&utm_medium=web
It's such a hard decision. I hope this helps a bit.

 

[madusmacus]

So I saw the geriatric doctor

he spent enough time on my documentation to have read all my concerns
he is going to get someone to recheck my 75% occluded artery (blelive this when i see it)
I belive this is where my stroke came from but UK dont do nothing till your dieing/acute even my private docs

He basicaly discounted every thing i documented and all i got was "you seem to be in great shape"
If thats not an alarm to change again i dont know what is
(Sadly there is more wrong with me, than just glucose)

Anyways, he agreed to me stopping 20mg prava statins for a month due to i get bad statin leg weakness
he was not interested in statin insulin suppresion/sensitivity though

I have reduced the dose to 10mg pravastatin (instead of stoping) for last 3 days and
i can feel the difference in my legs my toes might feel a bit better too
Probily is a placebo though although I have been taking B12 etc
Anyways I am going to do 10mg for a week checking Blood sugars

So to check glucose i bought some more "Freetyle libre 2" sensors
(In the UK we dont get libre 3 and i get told "we dont supply and we wont tell you if or when") Nice!

Interesting after 3 days lowering statins i get much better glucose readings (<30g carbs again now)
strange nocturnal 3 mmol drop at 4:30am (see image if interested hehe)
I belive this is true dip as i was carefull about where i put the sensor as not to get sleep ompression lows
who knows saddly i ran out of finger prick test til tomorrow

The uptake on all this is...

If I can get statins down to a point where i can use my legs and
they dont interfear with my Insulin response, I will be happy. Including stopping them if i have to but
I belive they have some use in Post Stroke thats is not all about this ridiculouse loweing of total chloresterol
Doctor said it was all observational that they help no hard data, supposd to help clear plaque etc

Thanks for ideas help and reading all my text - this forum always helps me to focus :¬):¬)
i will STFU now and read other people threads heheh

 

[Alexandra100]

If I can get statins down to a point where i can use my legs and
they dont interfear with my Insulin response, I will be happy. Including stopping them if i have to but
I belive they have some use in Post Stroke thats is not all about this ridiculouse loweing of total chloresterol

@madusmacus I do think you are approaching this difficult decision very wisely. John Mandrola (link above) mentions that statins do improve mortality in people who have already had a cardiac event, but speculates that this may not be because they lower cholesterol but because they lower inflammation. I am sometimes tempted to give in to statins myself, but I am already taking 4 different meds, as well as numerous vitamins & minerals, so taking a statin would tip me over into polypharmacy (defined as taking 5 different meds and greatly increasing the chance of interactions and side effects). ALSO, even with v. low carb and maximum dose Glucophage I can't get my bg as low as I would like, so the idea of taking something that raised my bg even a little is very unwelcome.
Btw, when my GP complained about my total cholesterol, I pointed out that my reasonably high HDL (supposedly a good thing) necessarily bumped up my high total score. This seemed to come as a completely new idea to him.
Do keep on posting the latest developments.

 

[AndBreathe]

So I saw the geriatric doctor

he spent enough time on my documentation to have read all my concerns
he is going to get someone to recheck my 75% occluded artery (blelive this when i see it)
I belive this is where my stroke came from but UK dont do nothing till your dieing/acute even my private docs

He basicaly discounted every thing i documented and all i got was "you seem to be in great shape"
If thats not an alarm to change again i dont know what is
(Sadly there is more wrong with me, than just glucose)

Anyways, he agreed to me stopping 20mg prava statins for a month due to i get bad statin leg weakness
he was not interested in statin insulin suppresion/sensitivity though

I have reduced the dose to 10mg pravastatin (instead of stoping) for last 3 days and
i can feel the difference in my legs my toes might feel a bit better too
Probily is a placebo though although I have been taking B12 etc
Anyways I am going to do 10mg for a week checking Blood sugars

So to check glucose i bought some more "Freetyle libre 2" sensors
(In the UK we dont get libre 3 and i get told "we dont supply and we wont tell you if or when") Nice!

Interesting after 3 days lowering statins i get much better glucose readings (<30g carbs again now)
strange nocturnal 3 mmol drop at 4:30am (see image if interested hehe)
I belive this is true dip as i was carefull about where i put the sensor as not to get sleep ompression lows
who knows saddly i ran out of finger prick test til tomorrow

The uptake on all this is...

If I can get statins down to a point where i can use my legs and
they dont interfear with my Insulin response, I will be happy. Including stopping them if i have to but
I belive they have some use in Post Stroke thats is not all about this ridiculouse loweing of total chloresterol
Doctor said it was all observational that they help no hard data, supposd to help clear plaque etc

Thanks for ideas help and reading all my text - this forum always helps me to focus :¬):¬)
i will STFU now and read other people threads heheh

madusmacus, if you consider you might be having compression lows at any time, it could be worth considering your sensor placement.

I have experienced serial lows, as low as "lo" using Libre. Whilst I run low, it's very unlikely I go under 2.2, bearing in mind I am unmedicate.

I found I didn't go quite so low if I wear the sensors on my torso - placed in one of the red dot zones on the image. I do prefer the upper chest area, near my armpit, due to the risk to the sensor lower down when rushing to disrobe in the loo, or whatever. (OK. Too much info!)

Seriously though, it can be tough trying to work things out ourselves when the reality is we should be marvelling at the allegedly clever folks, with fancy titles, who should be working it out for us.

 

[madusmacus]

thanks all appreciate the info

 

[JohnEGreen]

I am wearing my sensor on my chest at this moment I do not get compression lows but be aware that Abbotts will not replace a faulty sensor that has been worn anywhere other than the position they specify that is if you tell em.

 

[madusmacus]

Its been a week on 10mg Pravastatin Test (down from 20mg)
Shock horror my weak legs are alot better - about 50% better - hmmmm
My Blood sugars are lot better now too (dunno how this can be but it is what it is)
Back on LCHF i guess has stableised me again or lowerd dose

Seems I dont get "dawn spikes" i get - "Geting out of bed spikes"
Activity spikes might be the libre thing it likes to do
These spikes are minimal and are only 6-7 mmol, so lower than before
Checked with glucose meter (slightly higher)

Freestyle Libre 2 started off lumpy with low spikes but
The reported "24 hour data" graph seems to get smothed out by day 11
So im doing ok for now :¬)

Seems my glucose is optimal on this diet - if i can belive abbott libre 2
"Daily Trends" graph below seems ok

I dont know what to make of all this but I was asked to post results

Mac :¬)

P.S.
I found that
Mepore 99XX0097 Dressing, 6cm x 7cm, Pack of 60 -£9.94 (£0.17£0.17 / count)
from amazon is a good cheep way to cover the sensor without sticking to it or blocking the hole