Statins and HBA1C levels

[Lou_c]

IHi,

I thought I would finally post here rather then just read. I will try not to make this a rant about my surgery

I was diagnosed in May of 2015 with type 2 based on a HBA1C of 49 since then with the advice of this forum on purchasing a meter which I purchased in October of 2015 on the type 2 testing regime. I managed to drop my HBA1C first to 48 and then to 45 (April 2016) My weight at this point was around 87.5 to 88.5 Kilos (I am 6 foot tall) about 3/4 kilos overweight or half a stone in old money based on BMI etc. I have also had high cholesterol for quite some time which has been attributed to it possibly being linked to genetics as I have had periods where I have lost a stone in weight and my cholesterol has actually gone up.

Around September of 2016 after a long argument on not wanting to take statins I started taking 20mg of Atorvastatin. After a few weeks on checking my glucose I noticed it had started to go up. I saw the doctor again in October and mentioned this. He straight away went on the defensive and stated that because I was diabetic it was even more important that I took statins. I had been worn down and I accepted that I would start taking them again along with Amilodipine 5mg for elevated blood pressure. He also advised me to stop testing my sugar levels as maybe I was doing it too often. Not that I had told him how often I was testing.

The first problem that started was that the Amilodipine (BP Tablets) appeared to be affecting my gums. The reason I am certain on this is because I have been having intensive gum treatment at Guys hospital in London and my gums felt good. Suddenly they started to bleed in certain places and I started to notice gum growth between some teeth. I stopped taking the tablets about three weeks ago and have not been able to discuss this with the doctor over the phone as he just talks via the receptionist and basically does not believe that the drugs have caused this. A search online seems to suggest otherwise (though it is rare). Three weeks on my gums have stopped bleeding though the gum growth is still there. I also noticed that my glucose levels were even higher though as advised (big mistake) I was hardly testing at all. I predicted based on these few readings a HBA1C of around the mid 50's. Sure enough last Thursday I had blood tests which showed my Cholesterol had gone down from 7.3 to 5.7 Ratio 6.1 down to 5.2 Triglycerides also down. But HBA1C 56!!!! and on the day glucose test 7.5 (I finally managed to compare my meter which read 8.2) (My weight is exactly the same as it was in April). Liver results all normal. The response from the surgery is that I don't need to do anything as all the figures are fine. I was convinced that a HBA1C figure of 56 would mean medication but apparently according to the guard dog on reception who seemed to think that they have a monopoly on my blood results it is okay as long as it is below 59. I have never heard this. I can't get to see a doctor before 17th February which is normal for my surgery so am not on any medication at the moment as I have run out and I am not forking out on a prescription if I can't discuss it first.

So to put it in a nutshell. I have much better cholesterol levels... that thing that MAY contribute to a heart attack/stroke. But much worse diabetes which will DEFINITELY increase my risk of heart attack/stroke amongst a myriad of other complaints that will probably affect me well before that.

Sorry for the rant.

All comments welcome.

Lou

 

[Bluetit1802]

I know nothing of blood pressure medication, but it is accepted common knowledge that statins increase blood glucose. It says so on the label. I guess if you do have familial hypercholesterolaemia (genetic associations) you may well need a bit of help so it a matter of frying pan or fire on your part, and your choice.

I wonder if you can get your HbA1c down again, with or without statins, by tweaking your diet some more. Less carbs should do it, and should also help your cholesterol levels. The triglycerides are the real baddies.

I cannot believe you had a telephone consultation with your doctor via your receptionist! So she heard everything that was said?

 

[Lou_c]

It was not a conversation with the doctor just him having relayed his thoughts to the receptionist and then on to me. I had asked to speak to him directly hopefully saving them an appointment slot. I was hoping that stopping the statins, which I did about two weeks ago, may have started to drop the levels but it does not seem to be happening.

Yes it is a difficult one. Trying to weigh up which one is likely to cause issues first. My gut feeling is that Diabetes complications will kick in first if the levels keep rising. I may lay off the statins for a bit and try to get another blood test in three months time to see what the results are. Yes I agree with the Triglycerides being the bad ones not that the doctor discusses that. He always looks at the overall cholesterol level and that's it. I had managed to get my Triglyceride levels down on my own not quite sure how but it may have been my weight reduction that did that though it did not affect the other results. The statins have brought it down even more.

I'm interested in your comment about it being common knowledge that statins increase blood glucose levels as I keep reading that the profession refuses to accept it and my GP did not seem to accept it. Do you know if it is all statins or just certain types?

Thanks for the response.

 

[Bluetit1802]

This is from the NHS. Increased blood sugar levels is listed as a common side effect. I believe it is all brands/types.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Cholesterol-lowering-medicines-statins/Pages/Side-effects.aspx

 

[Freema]

apple cider vinegar should also be able to lower cholesterol a bit, and eating lots of garlics daily, and eating Psyllium Husks in ones yoghurt or in low carb breads home baked...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Buy-Whole-Foods-Psyllium-Husks/dp/B004E2XQ88

if you go very low carb but focus on a higher protein intake it seems to clear the liver from being a fatty liver, and then you could focus on fats like olive oils and avocado and coconut-oil/fats or fresh coconut . And try not to eat too many eggs, I myself only eat eggs like once or twice a week, and my cholesterol which used long ago to be at the same level as yours about 7.0 and now is inthe 4.3 area..

I am also on a low calorie diet, but you don´t weigh as much too much as me, but if you could do that also for a few month, you would maybe get a much lowered cholesterol.
My GP was angry when I didnt want to take statins but lost the argument when I in just 3 month has lovered my cholesterol from 5.7 to 4.3 so now I don´t have to discuss that all the time... She was so sure that my high cholesterol was inherited and that it was impossible to get down at all without statins and she even did check my daugthers cholesterol when she had an allegic reaction to something, to win the argument , when cholesterol has hardly anything to do with allergy... but my daugther turned out to be like 3.0 in cholesterol haha to my amusement...

 

[Bluetit1802]

@Freema

Why don't you eat eggs very often?

 

[Freema]

@Freema

Why don't you eat eggs very often?

I know food doesn´t seem to highten ones cholesterol usually that is, but if my cholesterol has a tendency to get very high from inherited reasons, then I think I´d better avoid eating loads of eggs as it is the kind of food with the most cholesterol if eating the egg yolk...
as you maybe know I am still on a continuingly very low calorie diet , and that can be the reason why my cholesterol has lowered so much, but when I some day in a not so distant future will have to eat much more to not get too thin, then I´ll have to eat much more fats and I wan´t not to get the very high cholesterol ever again...

http://www.everydayhealth.com/colum...-lower-my-cholesterol-with-a-vegetarian-diet/

 

[Bluetit1802]

I know food doesn´t seem to highten ones cholesterol usually that is, but if my cholesterol has a tendency to get very high from inherited reasons, then I think I´d better avoid eating loads of eggs as it is the kind of food with the most cholesterol if eating the egg yolk...
as you maybe know I am still on a continuingly very low calorie diet , and that can be the reason why my cholesterol has lowered so much, but when I some day in a not so distant future will have to eat much more to not get too thin, then I´ll have to eat much more fats and I wan´t not to get the very high cholesterol ever again...

http://www.everydayhealth.com/colum...-lower-my-cholesterol-with-a-vegetarian-diet/

I was under the impression it is CARBS that cause raised cholesterol, and as you have reduced your carbs by a lot, this is most likely the reason your cholesterol has improved. Nothing to do with eggs, I'm sure.

 

[Freema]

I think the reducing of high spiking carbs also has had the main part in my reducing cholesterol, but I guess Lou already avoids high carb eating, and I do also think that me avoiding the animal fats most days is also contributing to a much lower cholesterol than I did have before, and of cause my very heavy excercising... but I also think there must be a reason that vegetarians in general has a much lower cholesterol..

my personal idea is that cholesterol pictures how much repair is going on in the body both types, and that the higher ones cholesterol usually the higher the need for repair in the bodies internal tissue... but that is just my theory... on how all works in a holistic perspective... I am not sure any of the cholesterols types are really a bad kind or a better kind. something is different in people with inherited high cholesterol and they even seem to be able to change other fats into cholesterol in a much higer level than do people without this inherited phenomenon... and also seem to get Alzheimers much more often

about 14% of th population has this gene... my own father did get Alzheimers at a very early age before 50 years old... so... well I have my reasons and by the way he ate animal fat cheese and cream like hardly anyone else...
he could drink cream right out of the bottle

 

[Daibell]

Hi. An HBA1C of 56 mmol is 7.3% which is too high and needs medication together with the usual low-carb diet. The receptionist was talking rubbish. Have a look at the NICE Diabetes Guidelines on the web and perhaps show the receptionist a copy. It has a flow-chart showing the action/medication needed at each level of HBa1C. Yes, statins do increase blood sugar so should only be taken at the minimal level dose needed to get the LDL/HDL/Trig ratios right.

 

[Brunneria]

Yes, an HbA1c of 56 is far too high and should be brought down to reduce the risk of your diabetes progressing.

Some time ago I read a doc suggesting that doctors start to medicate their patients if the HbA1c rises above 53.
This NICE doc (dated Dec 2015) suggests starting patients on Metformin, if their HbA1c rises to 48 mmol/l and if it rises to 58 the recommendation is to add in a second drug.
https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng...apy-in-adults-with-type-2-diabetes-2185604173

Can I ask what lifestyle and dietary measures you are using to control your blood glucose? Consensus on the forum shows that diet and exercise are much more effective for Type 2s than most of the drugs.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I agree with @Daibell and @Brunneria about diabetes medication. Your HbA1c has increased by quite a lot, and your glucose test was also high. The doctor should be concerned about the increase and should be offering Metformin simply because of the increase as much as the level.

 

[Lou_c]

Thanks for the replies. I was also certain that a figure of 53 meant medication. I am not sure what the receptionist was going on about but she was reading this from the lab result... apparently. I won't be able to check any of this until my appointment which is not until the 17th of February I tried to get the printout made available for me to collect but for some reason got some resistance and I am past arguing with them these days. I have looked at the NICE guidelines and yes the figure of 56 requires medication. There is a possibility that my glucose levels are now dropping (Have not been testing being that I was so high) as one thing that usually alerts me to high levels is that the saliva glands below my tongue on either side tend to react in the same way they would if you had sucked on a Lemon Sherbet (Not that I do this now but as a kid I remember the feeling) I suppose they get over stimulated. Most times I felt this and then tested, the level had been high. I had this for about 6 weeks up until last week. Now it appears to have stopped. Also I don't know at what HBA1C level you start going to the loo more but I have never really suffered from this symptom anyway apart from again maybe a week ago for about 2 weeks prior to that, again seems to have stopped. I will definitely not go back on the statins until I see my meter levels dropping to an acceptable level. I was being careful with my carbs as I had already realised that this was the problem for me. In fact eating sweet stuff did not necessarily raise my levels which at first seemed strange to me but then I was going by what my surgery kept saying to me, cut out chocolate etc etc. no mention of carbs. Not the culprit for me I'm afraid it's definitely the carbs. I definitely had it under control so I will go back to what I was doing (meaning no statins) and hope I will get back to the pre-diabetic levels I was on. I will keep you posted on my appointment in fact I may ring them and mention what I have read on the NICE guidelines. I would not put it past them to not have realised that I am not on any medication for my diabetes.

Bye for now.

 

[Lou_c]

Just an update. Never got past the reception desk, am at work so can't get into a protracted argument. Apparently she will check with the doctor tomorrow (about me being diet controlled only) and give me a call back.

 

[Freema]

Thanks for the replies. I was also certain that a figure of 53 meant medication. I am not sure what the receptionist was going on about but she was reading this from the lab result... apparently. I won't be able to check any of this until my appointment which is not until the 17th of February I tried to get the printout made available for me to collect but for some reason got some resistance and I am past arguing with them these days. I have looked at the NICE guidelines and yes the figure of 56 requires medication. There is a possibility that my glucose levels are now dropping (Have not been testing being that I was so high) as one thing that usually alerts me to high levels is that the saliva glands below my tongue on either side tend to react in the same way they would if you had sucked on a Lemon Sherbet (Not that I do this now but as a kid I remember the feeling) I suppose they get over stimulated. Most times I felt this and then tested, the level had been high. I had this for about 6 weeks up until last week. Now it appears to have stopped. Also I don't know at what HBA1C level you start going to the loo more but I have never really suffered from this symptom anyway apart from again maybe a week ago for about 2 weeks prior to that, again seems to have stopped. I will definitely not go back on the statins until I see my meter levels dropping to an acceptable level. I was being careful with my carbs as I had already realised that this was the problem for me. In fact eating sweet stuff did not necessarily raise my levels which at first seemed strange to me but then I was going by what my surgery kept saying to me, cut out chocolate etc etc. no mention of carbs. Not the culprit for me I'm afraid it's definitely the carbs. I definitely had it under control so I will go back to what I was doing (meaning no statins) and hope I will get back to the pre-diabetic levels I was on. I will keep you posted on my appointment in fact I may ring them and mention what I have read on the NICE guidelines. I would not put it past them to not have realised that I am not on any medication for my diabetes.

Bye for now.

most type 2 diabetics has to eat less than 80 grams of carbs in total in a days food, of cause shared out on the meals of the day, and the least amount of carbs in breakfast where most are more insuline resistant..

many do actually have to go as low as 20 grams of carbs a day and even lower to get control of their blood glucose and get it to a level like non-diabetics Thus stopping the progression of complications...

you could try a few days of only 50 grams of carbs for a day and measure your morning numbers the following days to see if it is low enough to get your numbers down to normal levels...

 

[Lou_c]

mot type 2 diabetics has to eat less than 80 grams of carbs in total in a days food , of cause shared out on the meals of the day, and the least amount of carbs in breakfast where most are more insuline resistant..

many do actually have to go as low as 20 grams of carbs a day and even lower to get control of their blood glucose and get it to a level like non-diabetics Thus stopping the progression of complications...

you could try a few days of only 50 grams of carbs for a day and measure your morning numbers the following days to see if it is low enough to get your numbers down to normal levels...

Oh yes the dreaded breakfast. I learnt that the hard way. I suffer from the so called dawn Phenomenon where my levels on waking up can be high. I tried various things to bring that down, have something small to eat just before going to bed. That did not seem to work. Take some alcohol just before going to bed, varying success on that one but as I did not want that to become a normal way of life there was no way I was going to pursue that regime. I then found my after breakfast figures were not ideal and found that the culprit was Banana. I thought I had read that they were okay but must have dreamt it as it now seems they are not and definitely hike my levels up more then expected so for breakfast they are out. Assuming that the statins have not caused a permanent hike I am confident I will get back down to a HBA1C of around 45, then I will work on getting it further down. Which is what I was doing but had not had a test to confirm and then I went on to the statins.

 

[Bluetit1802]

One way of stopping the dawn phenomenon from continuing throughout the morning (ie a continual rise from getting up or not coming down much during the morning) is to have fat for breakfast with maybe some protein. No carbs. The fat could be a simple decaf coffee with generous slurps of double cream. The protein could be a soft boiled egg. (no soldiers!) The egg is optional.

I can't comment on raised fasting levels because I never had that fortunately, but I have had the morning rises starting minutes after getting up and continuing. (I first noticed that when I started to use a Libre sensor, which has been invaluable). I have tried everything under the sun, eventually having zero carbs and a lot of fat for breakfast fairly quickly after getting up. That seems to work.

 

[Dillinger]

So to put it in a nutshell. I have much better cholesterol levels... that thing that MAY contribute to a heart attack/stroke. But much worse diabetes which will DEFINITELY increase my risk of heart attack/stroke amongst a myriad of other complaints that will probably affect me well before that.

Lou

Hi, total cholesterol levels are meaningless with regard to CVD/CHD (familial hypercholesterolemia aside).

Statins won't make you live a single day longer if you are a woman (I'm making that assumption based on your name, so forgive me if you not!).

Elevated HbA1c over time directly correlates with all complications in diabetes.

If you want to make changes to your diet it is the carbohydrates that you should be looking at with suspicion

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20089734

Best

Dillinger

 

[Daphne917]

IHi,

I thought I would finally post here rather then just read. I will try not to make this a rant about my surgery

I was diagnosed in May of 2015 with type 2 based on a HBA1C of 49 since then with the advice of this forum on purchasing a meter which I purchased in October of 2015 on the type 2 testing regime. I managed to drop my HBA1C first to 48 and then to 45 (April 2016) My weight at this point was around 87.5 to 88.5 Kilos (I am 6 foot tall) about 3/4 kilos overweight or half a stone in old money based on BMI etc. I have also had high cholesterol for quite some time which has been attributed to it possibly being linked to genetics as I have had periods where I have lost a stone in weight and my cholesterol has actually gone up.

Around September of 2016 after a long argument on not wanting to take statins I started taking 20mg of Atorvastatin. After a few weeks on checking my glucose I noticed it had started to go up. I saw the doctor again in October and mentioned this. He straight away went on the defensive and stated that because I was diabetic it was even more important that I took statins. I had been worn down and I accepted that I would start taking them again along with Amilodipine 5mg for elevated blood pressure. He also advised me to stop testing my sugar levels as maybe I was doing it too often. Not that I had told him how often I was testing.

The first problem that started was that the Amilodipine (BP Tablets) appeared to be affecting my gums. The reason I am certain on this is because I have been having intensive gum treatment at Guys hospital in London and my gums felt good. Suddenly they started to bleed in certain places and I started to notice gum growth between some teeth. I stopped taking the tablets about three weeks ago and have not been able to discuss this with the doctor over the phone as he just talks via the receptionist and basically does not believe that the drugs have caused this. A search online seems to suggest otherwise (though it is rare). Three weeks on my gums have stopped bleeding though the gum growth is still there. I also noticed that my glucose levels were even higher though as advised (big mistake) I was hardly testing at all. I predicted based on these few readings a HBA1C of around the mid 50's. Sure enough last Thursday I had blood tests which showed my Cholesterol had gone down from 7.3 to 5.7 Ratio 6.1 down to 5.2 Triglycerides also down. But HBA1C 56!!!! and on the day glucose test 7.5 (I finally managed to compare my meter which read 8.2) (My weight is exactly the same as it was in April). Liver results all normal. The response from the surgery is that I don't need to do anything as all the figures are fine. I was convinced that a HBA1C figure of 56 would mean medication but apparently according to the guard dog on reception who seemed to think that they have a monopoly on my blood results it is okay as long as it is below 59. I have never heard this. I can't get to see a doctor before 17th February which is normal for my surgery so am not on any medication at the moment as I have run out and I am not forking out on a prescription if I can't discuss it first.

So to put it in a nutshell. I have much better cholesterol levels... that thing that MAY contribute to a heart attack/stroke. But much worse diabetes which will DEFINITELY increase my risk of heart attack/stroke amongst a myriad of other complaints that will probably affect me well before that.

Sorry for the rant.

All comments welcome.

Lou

The same happened to me - I was diagnosed with an hba1c of 48, started taking statins and my hba1c went up to 54. When I told my DN that there was a known correlation between statins and diabetes I was told not to believe everything I read in the papers - her face was a picture when I told her that it came from the drug companies own website! I was initially prescribed Sitaglipin to counteract the effects of the statins which did bring my BS down then, when I stopped taking the statins due to other side effects, I was able to come off the sitagliptin (different DN) because my hba1c dropped to 40 and has stayed between 36 and 38 for the last 3 years with no medication. I still have the 'statins conversation' with my DN at every review and I always decline her offer!

If you need to take medication to bring it down it doesn't have to be permanent but may help in the short term

 

[les74]

I am equally concerned at the side effects of statins which seemed to be routinely prescribed to T2 patients irrespective of the clinical needs of individual patients. I was recently informed that a recent blood test had revealed I had a low platelet level. I wondered if it was a side effect of the statins. The GP didn't know but looked it up and confirmed to his surprise that it was. However as the reduced platelet levels were not considered significant he advised me to stay on the statins. He was also unaware of the link between raised bg levels and statins. It's quite worrying this irrational love affair that medics have with statins!