Submission on fats and carbs to Which? and Diabetes UK?

graj0 · Aug 28, 2014

donnellysdogs said:
Think I'm getting to be a bit of a rebel in my 5th decade!!!

The great news is that you can be an even bigger, better rebel in your 60s. Everyone then at least just puts it down to you being an irascible old git, just like what I is. LOL

LittleGreyCat · Aug 28, 2014

douglas99 said:
No, it was serious question.
If you did manage to substantially reduce the amount of cereal eaten, what would you feed people instead?

There are two separate issues,I think.

Cereals and other starches are valuable subsistence foods is areas of food shortage.
They are also very suitable for long term storage - foods like pasta are dried starch which will store long term much better than the raw grain.
So for certain areas of the world (Third World?) these are essential for the survival of the population.
We are not considering removing a staple food from the (genuinely) hungry and starving.

If we consider ourselves to be in the First World, we have a completely different problem.
We have a massive surplus of food and our bodies are just not designed to cope with this constant surplus.
Under these circumstances we should look at the food balance and try to make it more healthy.
This is, of course, what the Lo Fat movement were trying to do.
Unfortunately it looks as though they have taken a wrong approach with the best of intentions.

If I remember correctly it took a lot of campaigning by consumer groups to get 'healthy options' on the supermarket shelves so campaigning and consumer pressure does work.
Worked for organic food as well.
The sadly logical move is to tax carbohydrates to put economic pressure on the consumer - but I really hate this approach.

So we have options;

ship our grain surplus to countries with famines (although this risks undermining their local food economy)
re-purpose our agriculture to increase production of beans, pulses, green vegetables, fruit
expand the dairy farming
use more of the starch based foods for animal feeds
grow more rape seed to produce Extra Virgin oil
pigs are wonderful - they are easy to keep, eat almost anything, and you can eat everything but the oink
everyone should keep a few chickens - mainly for the eggs unless you are used to eating family pets

Mainly we have to re-educate the consumer to demand the correct food.
Which is why Which? is a good starting point, plus DUK as the go to reference for diabetics.

To the barricades, mes enfants!!

LGC

douglas99 · Aug 28, 2014

If you were one of the 20 to 30% in the UK, living below the poverty line, you may not see the First World side.

Andy12345 · Aug 28, 2014

antagonist
Line breaks: an|tag¦on|ist
Pronunciation: /anˈtaɡ(ə)nɪst /
NOUN
1A person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary:

LittleGreyCat · Aug 28, 2014

douglas99 said:
If you were one of the 20 to 30% in the UK, living below the poverty line, you may not see the First World side.

We are a first world country and the majority of our population has a degree of affluence which would make us look enormously rich to our ancestors.

Again, not the main issue we are discussing.
There is a massive food surplus in the UK.
If this is not being distributed fairly then supplying cheap carbs is not necessarily the best way to solve this.

I would be interested to know how many of the people who live below the defined poverty line are under weight - and how many are obese.
I would especially be interested to know how many were both obese and malnourished.
For instance http://www.abdn.ac.uk/news/6187/

Being thin used to be linked with poverty while obesity was associated with affluence but now that has turned on its head, according to a University of Aberdeen study.

Nowadays poverty is more associated with obesity, whilst childhood obesity rates are falling among the more affluent communities, according to University analysis of childhood data spanning 35 years.

To look at it another way, the poor and disadvantaged need decent food, not cheap **** which damages their health.

If you can afford to eat enough to become obese, then you are not truly poor - although you may be viewed by your contemporaries as poor and you may well be malnourished.

True poverty is the homeless starving to death or freezing to death.
True poverty is the lack of essential health care due to lack of money.
All else is just statistics.

Cheers

LGC

satindoll · Aug 28, 2014

Leave it to Brussels, if they can regulate on the wattage of your new vacuum cleaner, down from 2000 watts to 1200 and lower soon, square tomatoes and straight bananas and cucumber, surely they can sort out our diabetic needs.

noblehead · Aug 28, 2014

Hooked said:
Off you go then!

Count me out Hooked

douglas99 · Aug 28, 2014

LittleGreyCat said:
We are a first world country and the majority of our population has a degree of affluence which would make us look enormously rich to our ancestors.

Again, not the main issue we are discussing.
There is a massive food surplus in the UK.
If this is not being distributed fairly then supplying cheap carbs is not necessarily the best way to solve this.

I would be interested to know how many of the people who live below the defined poverty line are under weight - and how many are obese.
I would especially be interested to know how many were both obese and malnourished.
For instance http://www.abdn.ac.uk/news/6187/

Being thin used to be linked with poverty while obesity was associated with affluence but now that has turned on its head, according to a University of Aberdeen study.

Nowadays poverty is more associated with obesity, whilst childhood obesity rates are falling among the more affluent communities, according to University analysis of childhood data spanning 35 years.

To look at it another way, the poor and disadvantaged need decent food, not cheap **** which damages their health.

If you can afford to eat enough to become obese, then you are not truly poor - although you may be viewed by your contemporaries as poor and you may well be malnourished.

True poverty is the homeless starving to death or freezing to death.
True poverty is the lack of essential health care due to lack of money.
All else is just statistics.

Cheers

LGC

It's an interesting point.
It's not as simple as they're not poor because they can afford to eat too much food and become obese.
There are a lot of others reasons for obesity, apart from simply eating too much.
Carbs make you obese.
If you're poor, you can only afford the cheap ****, - produced in volume, stored cheaply, distributed cheaply, you would expect the poor to be obese?
So they need decent food that is still affordable?

Lamont D · Aug 28, 2014

LittleGreyCat said:
We are a first world country and the majority of our population has a degree of affluence which would make us look enormously rich to our ancestors.

Again, not the main issue we are discussing.
There is a massive food surplus in the UK.
If this is not being distributed fairly then supplying cheap carbs is not necessarily the best way to solve this.

I would be interested to know how many of the people who live below the defined poverty line are under weight - and how many are obese.
I would especially be interested to know how many were both obese and malnourished.
For instance http://www.abdn.ac.uk/news/6187/

Being thin used to be linked with poverty while obesity was associated with affluence but now that has turned on its head, according to a University of Aberdeen study.

Nowadays poverty is more associated with obesity, whilst childhood obesity rates are falling among the more affluent communities, according to University analysis of childhood data spanning 35 years.

To look at it another way, the poor and disadvantaged need decent food, not cheap **** which damages their health.

If you can afford to eat enough to become obese, then you are not truly poor - although you may be viewed by your contemporaries as poor and you may well be malnourished.

True poverty is the homeless starving to death or freezing to death.
True poverty is the lack of essential health care due to lack of money.
All else is just statistics.

Cheers

LGC

Do you know what it's like to go without food and basic needs? Have you ever felt cold and Hungary. When you can't sleep because the cupboard is empty and you can't put the fire on because the electric meter has run out and the only decent meal you get is at school or from a relative or good neighbour? Has your family suffered unemployment and begged at the social security and got nowhere? Your parents crying cos they don't know what to do. And they haven't eaten for days cos they have given the kids what food there is!
Mass unemployment in your city, no prospects of work, so no pride, you are an underclass.
There are adults on Merseyside who have never worked. It is not their fault they don't know how and company's just will not take them on if they have been out of work for more than two years!
The poverty I was describing was in the seventies and eighties! The underclass still exists!
Statistics are the truth. But they don't tell you the hardship and the pain and the emotional harm that is does to the population of an area as it did under the thatcher government! It happened to my family! I had to help my brothers who never did get over the mass unemployment. Both were time served city and guild qualified electricians and they were very easy to make unemployed! My and my wife's family have never been comfortable. We have a big family and things come hard. Luckily my kids and grandkids are faring better than we ever did!
This is why our country will never be great again because it is governed by people who have too much money and too much self interest. The politicians are privileged. They kowtow to the super rich and the multi- nationals.

Just a rant on statistics!

LittleGreyCat · Aug 28, 2014

nosher8355 said:
Do you know what it's like to go without food and basic needs? Have you ever felt cold and Hungary. When you can't sleep because the cupboard is empty and you can't put the fire on because the electric meter has run out and the only decent meal you get is at school or from a relative or good neighbour? Has your family suffered unemployment and begged at the social security and got nowhere? Your parents crying cos they don't know what to do. And they haven't eaten for days cos they have given the kids what food there is!
Mass unemployment in your city, no prospects of work, so no pride, you are an underclass.
There are adults on Merseyside who have never worked. It is not their fault they don't know how and company's just will not take them on if they have been out of work for more than two years!
The poverty I was describing was in the seventies and eighties! The underclass still exists!
Statistics are the truth. But they don't tell you the hardship and the pain and the emotional harm that is does to the population of an area as it did under the thatcher government! It happened to my family! I had to help my brothers who never did get over the mass unemployment. Both were time served city and guild qualified electricians and they were very easy to make unemployed! My and my wife's family have never been comfortable. We have a big family and things come hard. Luckily my kids and grandkids are faring better than we ever did!
This is why our country will never be great again because it is governed by people who have too much money and too much self interest. The politicians are privileged. They kowtow to the super rich and the multi- nationals.

Just a rant on statistics!

Well, yes, but.........

O.K.
I was born in Liverpool, and went to University in Liverpool.
My family is from Manchester.
I have never been poor (in the true sense) nor have I been hungry for more than the odd day.
I have always had the back stop of my extended family.

However this is not about poverty.
It is about the correct food to eat for long term health.
If the measure of poverty is the supermarket basket filled with pizza, pasta, white sliced bread, fizzy pop, and processed food then this is the wrong target.

Traditional Northern poverty food of bread and dripping is actually quite good for you if you have a lot of dripping on the bread.
Lancashire hot pot - cheap fatty cuts of meat stretched with loads of vegetables - is also a good meal.
'Soul food' or 'peasant food' is generally a good way of feeding a family on a budget.
I grew up with this kind of food.
And look at me now!

So the issue is the recommendations that we eat high carbohydrate and low fat to be healthy.
Studies are indicating that people on low budgets are eating enough food to become obese, but are malnourished.
The whole structure of diet recommendations needs to be turned on its head.
We should firstly make sure that the recommendation for a healthy diet does in fact recommend a healthy diet.
As a separate issue we should address food poverty in our enormously affluent nation.
Diet recommendations is something we can address directly by approaching key influencers and attempting to get them on our side.

Social inequality is a matter for the ballot box should you be lucky enough to find a political party which is not heavily invested in big industry and the status quo.

Cheers

LGC

phoenix · Aug 28, 2014

I kept out of this at the beginning, it is one thing to suggest alternative advice but now you are talking of a food manifesto .

So we have options;

ship our grain surplus to countries with famines (although this risks undermining their local food economy)

re-purpose our agriculture to increase production of beans, pulses, green vegetables, fruit

expand the dairy farming

use more of the starch based foods for animal feeds

grow more rape seed to produce Extra Virgin oil

pigs are wonderful - they are easy to keep, eat almost anything, and you can eat everything but the oink

everyone should keep a few chickens - mainly for the eggs unless you are used to eating family pets

Mainly we have to re-educate the consumer to demand the correct food.
Which is why Which? is a good starting point, plus DUK as the go to reference for diabetics.

To the barricades, mes enfants!!

Sorry, I think they would throw you off them here, they had a revolution here over the price of bread

What about us who consider they eat extremely healthily, and to quote Pollan ' eat food (ie real food), not too much, and mostly plants'? I eat rwhole grains, fruit , veg , some meat, fish and dairy. I don't use seed oils but do use olive oil This is not necessarily a cheap way to eat .
Apart from having T1, I think I'm healthy. I've just had my family here so three generations have been able to partake in activities like cycling, rock climbing , canoeing and swimming. I don't think the younger generations eat too differently from us bu I admit that tthey have a reasonable income.(certainly more than us!)

Re your points
I eat meat but would prefer that we continue to use mainly fodder for feeding and not mainly grain feed as in the US. I think that purely grass fed is too expensive on land and doesn't really increase nutrition over mixed feeding but I think that lot feeding is not good from either an animal welfare or nutritional point of view
Expand dairy; as above I would prefer cattle were raised on pasture, where is the land?
? virgin rapeseed oil very expensive to produce.
Yes keep chickens but for goodness sake if you keep them, then kill them, pluck and prepare them and eat them when they are surplus to requirements. (I've been there and as my astonished neighbours said 'you eat meat don't you? Yes, I do so I learnt to do it)
Yes,pigs work fine if you can keep them yourself but feeding them everything is not a good idea and the feeding of meat and bonemeal to them is now banned. Most cheap pork you get will come from an industrial, intensive unit. Otherwise if you do it yourself you will have to take the pig to the local abattoir.(or as they do at one of my neighbours , kill it yourself and butcher it on a table in the garden( I doubt that it's any more legal here in France than the UK either but they have been doing it for centuries. )

What is your definition of cheap carbs? ie are you talking about industrial, highly refined foods, pastries, pies, pizzas, cakes, biscuits (often high in both refined carbs and fat, just work out the relative proportions of calories from each)

What about unprocessed potatoes and other root veg which are cheap, seasonal fruits, oatmeal (the staple of the Scots for years, myth, I don't know ) and wheat which has certainly been a staple for centuries (historically just as in France high wheat prices lead to political unrest )
Barley is now less cheap nowadays but was once also a staple. Pulses, yes we probably don't eat as many beans as in past eras.

JTL · Aug 28, 2014

douglas99 said:
How would you feed the worlds population without cereal?

The affluent west could and should be reducated to stop consuming and wasting so much for starters.
This three meals a day mlarky ... where did that com from and who where etc.
The healthiest generation ever in this country was after the world war part two and before the seventies when the consume it society got going.
The people of the affluent west need to be made to feel some guilt for making rubbish mountains out of food while so many go hungry.

Lamont D · Aug 28, 2014

LittleGreyCat said:
Well, yes, but.........

O.K.
I was born in Liverpool, and went to University in Liverpool.
My family is from Manchester.
I have never been poor (in the true sense) nor have I been hungry for more than the odd day.
I have always had the back stop of my extended family.

However this is not about poverty.
It is about the correct food to eat for long term health.
If the measure of poverty is the supermarket basket filled with pizza, pasta, white sliced bread, fizzy pop, and processed food then this is the wrong target.

Traditional Northern poverty food of bread and dripping is actually quite good for you if you have a lot of dripping on the bread.
Lancashire hot pot - cheap fatty cuts of meat stretched with loads of vegetables - is also a good meal.
'Soul food' or 'peasant food' is generally a good way of feeding a family on a budget.
I grew up with this kind of food.
And look at me now!

So the issue is the recommendations that we eat high carbohydrate and low fat to be healthy.
Studies are indicating that people on low budgets are eating enough food to become obese, but are malnourished.
The whole structure of diet recommendations needs to be turned on its head.
We should firstly make sure that the recommendation for a healthy diet does in fact recommend a healthy diet.
As a separate issue we should address food poverty in our enormously affluent nation.
Diet recommendations is something we can address directly by approaching key influencers and attempting to get them on our side.

Social inequality is a matter for the ballot box should you be lucky enough to find a political party which is not heavily invested in big industry and the status quo.

Cheers

LGC

Do you know what scouse is? And lob scouse?
You are on a mission and are very dismissive of the basics that the majority of the populations diet!
The biggest threat to our health system is the stuff we put into our mouths!
Yet you haven't mentioned education.
The knowledge is out there but what is taught advertised and recommended is propaganda towards the so called 'healthy diet'!
The modern society is 'too busy' to cook. So fast food is the only alternative.
If you have seen some of what top chefs like Jamie Oliver has tried to do and change in schools and hospitals, then the crusade you are undertaking is a lot bigger than you realise!

JTL · Aug 28, 2014

If we all went vegetarian tomorrow the environment would collapse within a very very short space of time.

Brunneria · Aug 28, 2014

I'm sorry your thread has gone so off course @LittleGreyCat

LittleGreyCat · Aug 28, 2014

My main concern is the highly processed and cheap carbohydrates.

I am not maintaining that carbohydrates per se are unhealthy.
As I have already said they form the basis of sustainable food for those struggling to get enough to eat.
Where people eat staples to survive, they do not tend to become obese.
If you look back to the two World Wars people were on restricted diets and in general they were not overweight and probably healthier than we are now.

In my personal view one of the big problems today is not that potatoes and wholemeal bread are dangerous in themselves.
The surplus of these items is the danger.
Over consumption is made possible by abundance, and encouraged by marketing.

Let us step back for a moment.

The current NICE advice advocates making carbohydrates a major part of every meal.
The increase in obesity can be tracked against the rise in high carbohydrate low fat eating.
Correlation does not imply causation but it can give very big hints.
Many posters on this forum have found that avoiding carbohydrates and eating mainly protein and fat has resulted in loss of weight and improvement in BG control.
This (along with current studies) suggests that the NICE guidelines may well be wrong.
Therefore I am advocating that Which? and DUK are approached with these points and supporting evidence and that they are asked to objectively review the NICE guidelines against the current evidence and then act appropriately.

Does this seem like a sensible approach?

Cheers

LGC

LittleGreyCat · Aug 28, 2014

Brunneria said:
I'm sorry your thread has gone so off course @LittleGreyCat

Actually, this is enormously useful.
Presenting this topic to the forum is a great rehearsal for presenting it to sceptics outside.

Cheers

LGC

LittleGreyCat · Aug 28, 2014

phoenix said:
I kept out of this at the beginning, it is one thing to suggest alternative advice but now you are talking of a food manifesto .

Sorry, I think they would throw you off them here, they had a revolution here over the price of bread

<massive snip>.

Are you sure it wasn't the "Let them eat cake!" bit?

Cake?
Have you seen the sugars and carbs in that?
Foreign ***** is trying to kill us!!!!
To the guillotine with her, mes braves.

Andy12345 · Aug 28, 2014

Andy12345 said:
nice idea heres a brick wall, hit your head at will

lol

phoenix · Aug 28, 2014

Let them eat cake.
"Qu'ils mangent de la brioche'

brioche ie bread dough enriched with butter and eggs !
(thus high fat and high carb ) Probably kill off the peasants, if they could afford it.
After the interlude I would get back to your original intention.

Submission on fats and carbs to Which? and Diabetes UK?

graj0

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