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surely there not all myths about high fats

douglas99 said:
That's always the case with the internet.
For every claim, there's always a counter claim, both with indisputable proof.
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Yes very true Douglas, I've used fish oil supplements for years, originally took them in capsule form and for the last few years in liquid form, I'm a firm believer in the health benefits of CLO and don't have any plans to stop taking it any-time soon.
 
noblehead said:
Yes very true Douglas, I've used fish oil supplements for years, originally took them in capsule form and for the last few years in liquid form, I'm a firm believer in the health benefits of CLO and don't have any plans to stop taking it any-time soon.
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Yes, I decided a while ago the only person who really knew what effect my diet was having on me was me.
If it works, no amount of internet studies will show me it won't, and if it doesn't, no internet study will show me it will.

I'm happy with my BG, my HbA1C, my cholesterol, my weight and fitness, so is my doctor, so I must be doing something right!
 
phoenix said:
High protein/fat?
It depends upon how high a fat intake you actually have, unless it's very high fat , if its also low carb then it will necessarily be quite high protein.
The French had a detailed investigation into a wide variety of various diets a couple of years ago.
The highest fat diet they considered was first stage Atkins* (and the Cohen diet )
First stage Atkins was 59% fat content with 35% from protein . This is slightly less fat than the PRCM document linked to by Izzzi but the protein is still considered high.
For women they suggested that it amounted to more than 2g/kg of weight (ie normal weight) They term the regime as High fat, high protein, low carbohydrate. ( the French home grown low carb diet, Dukan is much higher in Protein at 53% for women in stage 1, they really don't like that one ) The French nutritional guideline say 0.83g/kg .for protein
I won't go into the whole paper it's very long and detailed and evaluates many weight reduction diets, mostly unfavourably.

In the summary report there are two tables, one for women, one for men that are probably easy enough to understand. They include info on the vitamin and mineral contents . Atkins covers the first three lines of the grid. If someone is eating this type of pattern then it might be worth looking at where there may be too little (or too much) and look for foods that can 'plug' the gap.
The pink highlight is for deficiencies and the yellow one for where there is a higher than the normally recommended amount. Red writing for sodium stands for more than 5g
Inca is what French population actually eat according to national surveys
ANC are French guideline amounts
BMN are average nutritional requirements
(so French women on average eat 39% fat and the guidelines say 35-40% )
http://www.afssa.fr/Documents/NUT2009sa0099.pdf
*This is the paper from which the French derived the proportions and nutrients of the Atkins diet . It has a couple of sample menus that presumably they used for analysis.
http://www.colorado.edu/intphys/Class/IPHY3700_Greene/pdfs/atkins/freedman.pdf


If you do read French or want to use Google translate their is a section in the full report specifically on low carb diets P 52. with lots of references to studies , mostly in English.
There are also lots of graphs and diagrams comparing the various diets visually. This is a very long PDF.
http://www.afssa.fr/Documents/NUT2009sa0099.pdf
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do the french guidelines have a 35-40% fat recommendation? that is higher than what the english speaking world has, 20-30%
40% was the fat intake in the 50's before this fat is bad stuff started and the 30% usa gov recommendation of the 70's, that UK aus and ca followed
 
noblehead said:
Yes very true Douglas, I've used fish oil supplements for years, originally took them in capsule form and for the last few years in liquid form, I'm a firm believer in the health benefits of CLO and don't have any plans to stop taking it any-time soon.
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I knew you were a rebel :)

American diabetic association ( http://www.professional.diabetes.org/)
http://www.professional.diabetes.org/admin/UserFiles/0 - Sean/dc132042 FINAL.pdf
Omega-3 fatty acids: Evidence does not support recommending omega-3 (EPA and DHA) supplements for people with diabetes for the prevention or treatment of cardiovascular events.

As recommended for the general public, an increase in foods containing long-chain omega-3
fatty acids (EPA and DHA) (from fatty fish) and omega-3 linolenic acid (ALA) is recommended for individuals with diabetes because of their beneficial effects on lipoproteins, prevention of heart disease, and associations with positive health outcomes in observational studies.

The recommendation for the general public to eat fish (particularly fatty fish) at least two times (two servings) per week is also appropriate for people with diabetes
 
Then you get the 'don't eat too many fish and shellfoods, because of PCB's, lead, mercury, and other contaminations.
Particularly in America!
 
@jack412
Yes, it was raised in 2010 from 30-35% to 35-40%. The advice is quite detailed about the proportions of types of fat that should be eaten . It's yes to monounsaturated oils, some omega 6, omega 3 and DHA/EPA from fatty fish. It limits myristic, palmitic and lauric acid (3 saturated fatty acids so definitely no coconut oil )
The table is towards the end. https://www.anses.fr/fr/content/les-lipides
This is their summary just put through google translate
Total lipid recommendations
"As with any nutrient, excessive intakes of fat can be harmful to health. The recommended proportion of lipids in energy intake is 35 to 40%. This range ensures coverage requirements for essential and indispensable fatty acids and takes into account the prevention of diseases. The upper limit of this range is exceeded in France by about 43% of adults and 34% of children.

It is also important to focus on the quality of the fatty acids provided by food because all are not equivalent. Thus, the ANC have been proposed for the essential fatty acids (LA, ALA, DHA), EPA, the three saturated fat atherogenic in case of excess, and oleic acid. A recommendation was also made for all saturated fatty acids, although they did not all the same physiological effects"

The practical advice hasn't really changed since I first saw the dietitian 10 years ago.

"Limit fats hidden in industrial products, including palm oil , hydrogenated vegetable fats or partially hydrogenated fats contained in biscuits, pastries, pasta, pies, quiches, and ready meals.
- Eat at least 2 tablespoons daily of nut oils or rapeseed oil (or margarines prepared from these oils "rich in omega-3");
- Complete the intake of vegetable fats with olive oil, nuts, hazelnuts, almonds, pistachios, flax seed ...;
- Reserve butter for use uncooked in sandwiches (or on vegetables alternately with oil);
- Alternate full fat cheese with semi-skimmed milk products;
- Alternate meat with poultry and fish. Eat fatty fish, naturally rich in omega 3 , twice per week(herring, mackerel, sardines, salmon, tuna)."
I
 
phoenix said:
@jack412
Yes, it was raised in 2010 from 30-35% to 35-40%. The advice is quite detailed about the proportions of types of fat that should be eaten . It's yes to monounsaturated oils, some omega 6, omega 3 and DHA/EPA from fatty fish. It limits myristic, palmitic and lauric acid (3 saturated fatty acids so definitely no coconut oil )
The table is towards the end. https://www.anses.fr/fr/content/les-lipides
This is their summary just put through google translate
Total lipid recommendations
"As with any nutrient, excessive intakes of fat can be harmful to health. The recommended proportion of lipids in energy intake is 35 to 40%. This range ensures coverage requirements for essential and indispensable fatty acids and takes into account the prevention of diseases. The upper limit of this range is exceeded in France by about 43% of adults and 34% of children.

It is also important to focus on the quality of the fatty acids provided by food because all are not equivalent. Thus, the ANC have been proposed for the essential fatty acids (LA, ALA, DHA), EPA, the three saturated fat atherogenic in case of excess, and oleic acid. A recommendation was also made for all saturated fatty acids, although they did not all the same physiological effects"

The practical advice hasn't really changed since I first saw the dietitian 10 years ago.

"Limit fats hidden in industrial products, including palm oil , hydrogenated vegetable fats or partially hydrogenated fats contained in biscuits, pastries, pasta, pies, quiches, and ready meals.
- Eat at least 2 tablespoons daily of nut oils or rapeseed oil (or margarines prepared from these oils "rich in omega-3");
- Complete the intake of vegetable fats with olive oil, nuts, hazelnuts, almonds, pistachios, flax seed ...;
- Reserve butter for use uncooked in sandwiches (or on vegetables alternately with oil);
- Alternate full fat cheese with semi-skimmed milk products;
- Alternate meat with poultry and fish. Eat fatty fish, naturally rich in omega 3 , twice per week(herring, mackerel, sardines, salmon, tuna)."
I
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I haven't an issue with the french recommendations..I think 40% fat is very civilised :) and we shouldn't have shifted our intake from the 50's
"The upper limit of this range is exceeded in France by about 43% of adults and 34% of children." is maybe even more civilised :)
although limited which is fair enough, lauric acid is in coconut oil [olive oil is the only one i don't limit, the rest I try to balance with the olive intake]
http://www.naturalnews.com/026819_lauric_acid_coconut_oil_infections.html
 
@jack,
I doubt that the most people in other countries stick to the guidelines that well either. Quite often you just get given average figures and If you look at French averages they are just within it . Also the calories recommended are lower with 1800 rather than 2000 recommended for women 20-40, it's lower if you are older. Carbs are 50-55% ( should be eaten as part of a meal, in solid rather than liquid form, favouring high fibre and complex carbs rather than simple sugars), protein 0.83g/kg . They are in the middle of a revision of advice on carbs and protein (supposed to report this year)

I think that the 'food environment ' is very different here. Food and food quality rather than quantity is important.. There is still far less dependence on industrially produced foods .
I would really find it quite hard to buy a weeks worth of different ready meals in my local supermarket , but it would be easy in the UK. but people eat their main meal at midday, and get two hours for it.
I would think that the most common products of industry sold in the supermarkets are, biscottes (horrible hard rusks eaten for breakfast) , pizza , charcuterie (processed meats) and sadly milk .(mostly longlife,) Unfortunately the range of breakfast cereals has also risen in the last 10 years and most are horribly sweet and aimed at children.
 
phoenix said:
@jack,
I doubt that the most people in other countries stick to the guidelines that well either. Quite often you just get given average figures and If you look at French averages they are just within it . Also the calories recommended are lower with 1800 rather than 2000 recommended for women 20-40, it's lower if you are older. Carbs are 50-55% ( should be eaten as part of a meal, in solid rather than liquid form, favouring high fibre and complex carbs rather than simple sugars), protein 0.83g/kg . They are in the middle of a revision of advice on carbs and protein (supposed to report this year)

I think that the 'food environment ' is very different here. Food and food quality rather than quantity is important.. There is still far less dependence on industrially produced foods .
I would really find it quite hard to buy a weeks worth of different ready meals in my local supermarket , but it would be easy in the UK. but people eat their main meal at midday, and get two hours for it.
I would think that the most common products of industry sold in the supermarkets are, biscottes (horrible hard rusks eaten for breakfast) , pizza , charcuterie (processed meats) and sadly milk .(mostly longlife,) Unfortunately the range of breakfast cereals has also risen in the last 10 years and most are horribly sweet and aimed at children.
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I think it's an interesting comment you have made about the french supermarkets, as, while I don't live there, I do spend a lot of time holidaying there, or shopping there. (I even have an Auchan loyalty card, and get the mailing list of offers)

I find the freezers are full of much the same as the british ones, Frozen chips, potato balls, bags of processed frozen foods, shelves of tinned ready meals, croissants made with margarine rather than butter, a lot of processed meats, and the syrupy drinks are beyond any comparable in the uk.
The most common high street shop that eveyone thinks of immediately is the bakers, again, a lot of white bread, and sugar coated cakes.

I'm not saying I don't like it, I do, but it's a high carb, no added fat culture, with little dairy, apart from butter and cheese.
 
After uni. I lived in Paris for 3 years...I was the lowest weight I've ever been in my life. Yes cheese is eaten a lot. But most people eat by cooking fresh every day..I saw yes the consumption of pastries ect. But in moderation and still most of my friends are still slim..its a different culture where quality of say a small amount of beautiful chocolate suffices....moderation in wine too. I wish I still lived there...we used to shop in the market every day and cook fresh..bread yes but small amounts that one savoured. Not mindless spongy white bread people buy mostly here...
 
I don't know where you go to in France @douglas99 , but when my son was living in Brittany for a year, his experience of French supermarkets was much the same as @phoenix . When we visited him we noticed they cooked fresh food in the Sunday markets, rather than sell chilled ready meals. Although there were some ready meals available there wasn't a lot of choice. I didn't notice many obese people there either.
 
I think that's a difference between towns, (particularly Paris), and the county.
In the UK, we're rural, much the same as in france. Similar types of food. My nearest market is a 20 mile round trip.


But if I'm in the UK, in a town, (Nottingham, London, recently) there is a wealth of sunday markets, fish stalls, meat, freshly cooked foods, (but equally cakes, sweets).

The same in Malta this summer, towns, excellent markets, excellent food, rural, nothing but an Aldi.
 
He was in Brest for most of the time, so that's where I visited him. He wasn't catering for himself much for the first month so I don't really know about the first, smaller town he lived in - so what you say about the differences makes sense. :).
 
,Sorry Douglas I disagree but then I live fairly traditional area where you only get non French visitors for a very few weeks at the height of August .
We don't have an Auchan closer than about 200km away. (looking at the map the shops are concentrated in the North) . In fact our biggest local supermarket is a hyper U and I didn't realise until recently it's actually a franchise so caters for the demands of the local population.
This week I'm sure people would be surprised to hear we have a Foire au Gras(fat fair) in both the local supermarkets (they compete) . That actually means lots of duck, breasts, legs and fat for confit, carcasses to make fritons, gesiers (gizzards), necks for stuffing, skin to crisp and of course foie gras. Nothing is wasted and none of it has any more processing than plucking cutting up and packing. At other times we have foires au Porc, with huge legs and bags of salt to make your own hams . All the fresh food departments are large, the frozen section is quite small and apart from pizzas and yes frozen chips is mostly vegetables( wide variety, yet strangely peas are hard to get) A very big fish section with large packets of unprocessed fish and shellfish and a small section with ice cream/frozen desserts.
We have a huge market on Thursdays and smaller ones during the rest of the week , even on Sunday. Yes, you can certainly buy white baguette but what really sells in quantity is pain de campagne, a sourdough made from a mix of white and rye flour and baked in a wood oven. There is a lot of France like that .
Here's my take on the French paradox with some photos, it's a few years old now but things haven't changed that much.
http://typeonepointfive.blogspot.fr/2009/08/french-paradox.html
edit to add this is in the local town , we have to drive there. There is only one bread shop (which doesn't sell baguette!) in the centre of the commune which is about 3km away
 
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jack412 said:
I knew you were a rebel :)
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I don't know about being a rebel Jack :)

I initially started taking Cod Liver Oil after breaking my ankle badly in my 20's, the ankle was also dislocated and they set it in A & E and I was in plaster for several weeks after, on removal of the plaster I had an X Ray and it was found that the bone hadn't knitted together correctly, they were slightly offset, the orthopaedic surgeon said he could break the bone again to reset it or leave it as it was, he said it would be fine although I may get Arthritis in the joint by the time I was 30.

The Surgeon suggested I start taking CLO to help prevent the arthritis as he was a firm believer in the benefits of a daily supplement , he took one himself and said it helped with his own arthritis, so from that day on I took a One-a-Day CLO capsule and never did get arthritis in the ankle joint, although I accept that I may never have got arthritis in the joint even if I'd never taken CLO.

Around 4-5 years ago I started to exercise a lot more by doing more walking and cycling, on two occasions I felt a tear in the ligaments or tendons just above my knee, my gp said it was more than likely it was because I was pushing myself too hard and was nothing to worry about, he then asked if I took a daily fish oil supplement, I said I did and took it in capsule form, he said to buy the liquid form and to make sure it was a high-strength CLO, he (like the surgeon I'd seen 20+years earlier) was a firm believer in the benefits of CLO and so I started to buy it in a liquid form rather than capsules.

I've not had problems with the tearing of my ligaments or tendons again, but again it may just be coincidental and there's nothing to suggest that it's all down to CLO, but I do sometimes think you know when something is good for you so you stick with it, sorry for the long explanation but just thought I'd explain why I started taking CLO.
 
Hyper U is probably more like the Waitrose of UK supermarkets, but usually in semi rural medium to large sized villages/towns, and with a population large enough to support that sort of event, and as you say, no competition, as I find the prices are also Waitrose as opposed to Tesco.
I guess you're in a reasonably sized population area.

But you're right about the brand, and I like shopping there as well.
Oddly enough, it used to be their brand of croissants, picked up the night before, that used to make my breakfast.
 
@phoenix you have just helped me decide where we are going on holiday. We have driven through France yet never stayed there.
So we will make France our destination early next year.
 
izzzi said:
@phoenix you have just helped me decide where we are going on holiday. We have driven through France yet never stayed there.
So we will make France our destination early next year.
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A wonderful place.
The problem is there is so much of it to see, it's nearly impossible to decide where to go.
 
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