Symptom effects versus treatment effects

[increasingly cynical]

Hi,

I was reading a couple of really interesting threads on here, one re the 'oldest type 1' , another re problems with Lantus ..

It occurred to me.. do people have a feel (is there any actual information?) for which short or long term problems are the outcome of the symptom of high blood glucose and which are actually the result of the 'treatment'?

Virtually no-one on this forum seems to be free of chemical treatment, but maybe people have some experiences they could report ?

:?:

 

[cugila]

Hi IC.

I don't think that the treatment is the cause of the problems that Diabetics have. There may be the odd side effect which is usually remedied by changes in medication. We also have a lot of diet only Diabetics on here too. I understand your reluctance to take 'chemicals' but if it means I stay alive longer and I am healthier........?

If you have a read here it is apparent that the problems all stem from poorly controlled Bg levels, something we should all be concerned about. Tight control should be our aim.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/health_advic ... dsugar.htm

This is a small extract from the article:
When very high levels of blood glucose are present for years, it leads to damage of the small blood vessels.
This in turn increases your risk of developing late-stage diabetes complications including:

retinopathy (eye disease)
nephropathy (kidney disease)
neuropathy (nerve disease)
cardiovascular disease, such as heart attack, hypertension, heart failure, stroke and problems caused by poor circulation, eg gangrene in the worst cases.

There is much evidence to back this up.

Ken.

 

[m_cooper]

i am on diet only,and it is **** watching what you eat no cakes or chocolate no eating snacks between meals.anyway i have gone back to my eating what i want when i want;i am not interested in taking any meds as that would be worse as i would have to monitor my bg all the time;i would rather have not been diagnosed as i felt ok and did not ask to be tested anyway

 

[cugila]

Sorry you feel that way mc.

You are obviously able to do what you like. Trouble is it's not a wise move. 11 years ago I did just that. To cut a long story short, I got progressively worse and ended up with a major heart op. Then I got even worse after that. More complications.
I'm 60 now and it has taken me till now to turn my life around and 'get a life'. I wish I could have had that time back again - it would all be so different. I certainly wouldn't have ignored my Diabetes, not knowing what I know now.

Even people on diet only benefit from some daily testing. They know what certain foods do to them and what effect it has on your Bg levels. As for your comment that you can now eat what you like ? Well, I have never eaten better in my life than I do now after listening to the advice gleaned here. There are very few foods which I am unable to eat and my diet is very varied. My Bg levels are well controlled and my health and fitness levels are so much better.

Hope you will reconsider ?

Ken.

 

[janabelle]

Hi Increasingly cynical,
I totally believe that the problems many type-1s are having with BS control could be directly linked to synthetic insulins being unsuitable for some patients. I also feel that doctors' tunnel vision as far as treatment for type-1s goes,is a concern.
There's a young lady on this forum recently diagnosed with kidney probs, in her 30s and on synthetic insulin. The story of Monica Winn, the 90 year old type-1 who's been on animal insulin since 1927 shows that it is poss to live to a ripe old age with no complications if you're on the right treatment. There's also a lady on this forum who's been on animal insulin for 43 years with no complications.
I got chatting to a sales assistant in matalan a couple of months ago, who told me her type-1 duaghter was having awful probs with control and was feeling ill on analogue insulin. I told her about my experience, and that it was prob worth her daughter discussing it with her GP. I went to matalan yest, and saw the same woman, and asked how her daughter was. She told me that she'd seen her doc, got switched to animal insulin, and her control and health are much better. Many people report similar changes in health following changing insulins, including myself, and I have been PMd by many forum members with the same issues. I wish I'd been offered animal insulin years ago, and it angers me that it is considered obselete and old fashioned by some doctors, when it clearly is the answer to many many patients problems.
While I was having very erratic control,BS varying daily between 2-16 and sometimes higher, my HBA1c was still within the acceptable range, so I was considered by my doctor, to be well controlled, and therefore my concerns were ignored. If my blood sugars had continued any longer like this, its obvious that I would be heading for serious complications-despite an 'acceptable' HBA1c! When considering making a complaint to my consultant about the way my erratic BS, and other problems were ignored, I realised it would be pointless, as they'll have the HBA1c 'get out clause'-their proof that I WAS well controlled! :evil:
Jus

 

[increasingly cynical]

Interesting comments and also an interesting disparity of opinion! Cugila, whilst I am very sure that high BGs are almost certainly on their way to causing me significant harm, it is not the case that this is 'known' through the research evidence. In fact, there is only ONE existing trial which bothered to look at the outcomes of high BG (all other trials simply focus on the ability of a given medication to reduce BGs with the ASSUMPTION that this will impact on later health outcomes). Similarly, NO study that I am aware of has as yet attempted to look at advesre outcomes of medication (one study of tight control with anologue insulins had to be halted because of increased deaths due to tight control with artificial insulin... no reported damage due to weaker control).

There is research evidence supporting the anecdotal claims of less BG control and more pain and other side effects of analogue insulin vs 'natural' insulin but this is being ignored because the drug companies only get a profit out of the analogues... my problem is that as a vegetarian I won't consider animal insulins and the 'human' insulin which used to be produced via escherichia coli just isn't on the market anymore... from the data I've seen on analogues I wouldn't see the point in touching them (unless as a Type I you were about to die and I haven't yet seen any very convincing evidence that over the longer term they are likely to stop even that event). Anyone got any research evidence to the contrary?

 

[dipsticky]

increasinglycynical. apt name.
You are getting research and trials mixed up. They are two different things. There are hundreds and hundreds of reports (research) which back up the evidence that high Bg's can and do cause significant harm. You posed a question, then just because you think you know better because of some 'loose' research you try to discredit the real research which is out there around the world.
If you want to disregard proper research then go ahead, just don't complain when your feet drop off and your eyesight goes together with all the other rotten things that can happen to you.
Any newly diagnosed person reading your post would think you don't have to do anything about BG's because there isn't the research to back it up.
That's just rubbish. Do proper searches and look at the scientific data not just a Google search. You have to dig deep for proper research results.

D.

 

[MaryChristine]

i am on diet only,and it is **** watching what you eat no cakes or chocolate no eating snacks between meals.anyway i have gone back to my eating what i want when i want;i am not interested in taking any meds as that would be worse as i would have to monitor my bg all the time;i would rather have not been diagnosed as i felt ok and did not ask to be tested anyway

I just want to say I absolutely agree with Ken's post and to add, firstly, that you probably can eat what you want though probably not as often as you want nor as much as you want. Some foods have to become occasional treats and personally I find them all the more enjoyable because of that.

Secondly, if you can't eat the food you love, you may even come to prefer, or even love, the food you can eat. I've found that I do, much to my surprise.

Thirdly, watching what you eat and trying to be active is not some horrible punishment inflicted upon you because you have diabetes - it is what everyone needs to do for best possible health. It is how the human body has evolved to function best. There are rewards!

Best wishes

MaryChristine.

 

[phoenix]

A well known problem with some young type 1s (often women) is a failure to take sufficient insulin... often restricting it for weight reduction. I have read far too many personal accounts of the consequences, sometimes just a few years later, not be convinced that it causes harm .Here is a piece of research to demonstrate it.
http://www.healthandage.com/public/...le/3314/Insulin-restriction-may-be-fatal.html
Someone with LADA,is perhaps in a similar position to type 1s restricting insulin, they have some but not enough to keep BD in a safe range.
I know I'm repeating myself but I ignored LADA for a while (through ignorance) and ended up having no option, actually the hospital didn't even ask they just started insulin treatment, the alternative was diabetic coma.I now have an excellent quality of life.
Incidently there is some evidence that insulin can help preserve the life of beta cells in LADA.
http://www.ki.se/org/5thIDS/LADASymposium.htm (Tokyo study)

 

[increasingly cynical]

Hi Dipsticky,

I am always willing to be educated ... please give me the citations for the research studies which have directly established a link between high blood glucose and complications (randomised controlled trials , controlled trials and similarly robust evidence only please not 'internet trawl' :wink: ) many thanks..

 

[dipsticky]

Hey cynical.

You want me to do your work for you ? You are the one wants the research, go look for it. I 'aint a servant. Some of the stuff you want is only accessible with registration and passwords. As for internet trawl, if you are only searching with Google no wonder you can't find anything. Look in the research labs and the hospitals. There are shedloads of information which can take hours to hunt through. That's where your answers are.

You don't get nothing for free !!

D.

 

[janabelle]

Someone got out the wrong side of the bed this morning.
You can access summarys of reasearch through Pubmed without the need for passwords.
How valuable will info from 'research labs and hospitals'.be anyway Dipstick, expecially if it's collated from patients records? My experience of diabetes hospital consultants, (I've seen 4 over the past 5 years) is that they ignored my fluctuating BS, and based their judgement that I was well controlled on an HBA1c that was within the normal range. I had no quality of life, debilitating exhaustion,constant pain and other symptoms while on a particular insulin. None of these doctors paid any heed whatsoever, and I was also left with an unmanged condition and daily BS fluctuations of 2 - 15mmol/ml. Myrecords will only show an acceptable HBA1c result, and I know that my doctor did not report any of my ailments in my notes, as I looked at them on my last appt.
You made a good point, increasingly cynical, about the drug companies, and I too am becoming increasingly cynical!

Jus