T1 and surgery

Nomi

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151
hi guys,

I have to have an operation on my knee (keyhoe surgery) in a couple of weeks and have been told it will be done under general anaesthetic :? . They also said that this could have serious side affects to my blood sugar levels, has anyone been through this before and have some advice?
Also, they have told me that I cannot eat or drink after 6am even thought my operation isn't until the afternoon. Their advice is to only take half my usual insulin dose with breakfast, but I am worried that I will either hypo and thus have to drink lucozade (depending on the time it might affect whether i can have surgery) or that my bg will be high and i'll be really thirsty all day!
they didnt mention anything about adjusting my background dose, should i do anything with that one(usually take it about 10.30pm)?

any help/ advice would be very appreciated! :D
 

iHs

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4,595
Hi Nomi

On the morning or the evening before you have the surgery just take your background insulin and don't eat any carb or do a bolus in the morning. The background will help to control your sugar levels. Ideally if you are not already doing so, split your basal into 2 injections and start to do that now so that you can re adjust your bolus injections. So inject your normal basal at 10.30pm and then in the morning inject half the amount of basal and then start monitoring your bg levels. Once you start splitting you will probably be ok to use your normal bolus for breakfast on the first day but by lunchtime you will find your bg levels a bit lower so you can then start to reduce your lunchtime bolus as the morning basal will start to have an effect..... Testing your bg levels frequently will reveal all ..........

If you dont want to alter your basal and just do one injection..... you will find that your bg levels may start to elevate because youve got no bolus also helping to keep bg ok so you may have to give yourself a small correction by lunchtime until you have your surgery done. Dont worry too much though as using bolus/basal is easier to correct high bg so once the anaesthetic wears off you and you feel ok you'll be fine again....

Hope the op goes ok for you and you'll be able to report back on how good the hospital food was :lol: .

Big tip from me is that you take your own bg meter with teststrips into hospital and do your own tests and do your own injections. Also, take some sort of hypo stuff in with you and have a pack of biscuits in your locker just in case you find your bg level lower and need to eat something.
 

CarbsRok

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Hi Nomi,
have some liquid glucose or hypo stop at the ready to treat a hypo if needed. This wont make you sick or cause choking from the GA.
As IHS says skip breakfast so you do not have to worry about insulin solves that problem.
If there is any concern what so ever about your blood sugars you will be put on a sliding scale. Please don't worry you will be fine.
 

Nomi

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151
I used to split my background but have found that i need to take it in one go as i get a spike in the morning if i don't. i have tried adjusting each split dose but nothing works so i just tsick to one big dose in the evening which lasts well intot he following evening.
If i skip breakfast then surely that will make me more likely to hypo as i wont have had anything to eat? I know if i skip breakfast, by noon my blood sugar is beginning to hit the 4's and i need to eat.

confused!

I am planning on taking some packing up so that when i get out i can eat!! I tend to eat little and often so going all day without anything is going to be a challenge!
 

copepod

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Best to speak with knee surgery staff at pre op clinic - and ensure that thye have communicated with your diabetes clinic. It's surprising that you've been listed for afternoon, as usually people on insulin are operated on in morning, to make insulin / food / blood glucose management easier.

I had a knee arthroscopy a couple of weeks ago, on on morning day case list, so I had evening basal dose as normal, ate at last possible time and had a glass of water beside bed so I could drink if I woke up, no food or drink on waking at 6am, got taxi to hospital for 7am (partner doesn't drive and I wouldn't be able to drive home; not very confident that buses would run on time), when anaesthetist came round, he suggested that I had half my normal morning basal dose, to keep insulin doses as near normal as possible. Then, after operation, had a couple of cups of tea, then sandwich with normal bolus insulin, saw physio and orthopaedic specialist nurse, went home with partner in taxi. All very easy and well organised! :)
 

Cheryl

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180
My experience is that the hospitals are hopeless & don't undertsand what no insulin does to a diabetic. I had keyhole surgery on my shuolder three years ago. I was told that I'd be first on the list for the day as they wouldn't want to keep me hanging around with no insulin/food. I was told to have nothing to eat or drink after 22:00 and no insulin in the morning (at that time I was on a morning/evening levemir along with my rapid acting humalog at mealtimes). I also suffered from serious dawn phenomenom so always woke up in double figures and used my breakfast bolus dose to bring my BG down.

I tested before I went to the hospital my BG was about 11 (normal on waking for those days). I was admitted & then left to my own devices for hours, having been told that I was second on the list after all. At 10:30 I tested again & was at 18 and rising!! I went to the nurses station & asked what was going on, told them that my BG was getting silly high & something needed to be done. Only then did they go into a major panic & hook me up to an insulin drip. All because no one really knew what to do with a diabetic patient!! My op was cancelled that day & I had to go through it again two weeks later, but at least the second time I was first in so my BGs didn't have the chance to get to silly levels.

I think that if your op isn't until the afternoon and if you only take one basal insulin in the evening, you should be OK with this dose the night before (I assume that you're on Lantus?). The hospital didn't take my insulin pens from me when I was admitted (and I didn't offer them up either!), so I was able to have my injections as normal once I'd come around. I'd do the same if I was you.

If you're having knee surgery, I assume that you'll be on an orthapedic ward so assume that the nurses have no knowledge of diabetes (except maybe type 2s as my ward was full of pensioners having hip replacements). You'll need to keep control of your own diabetes & don't be afraid to make a noise if they ignore you when you're 'nil by mouth', do your own tests if they don't bother & tell the sister if your BGs are rising. Take glucose/hypo remedy with you so you don't have to ask for it if needs be.

If you eat before 06:00 and have your normal short-acting bolus insulin, this will have passed out of your system long before you go off to the hospital. there's no way you'll be hypo if you bolus half your dose then eat. Were you thinking of bolusing half your dose & not eating? That sounds risky. I'd just get up early and eat/bolus as normal before the cut off time (though the odd half hour won't hurt if you eat at 06:00 or 06:15.)

After my op (I was in surgery about 90 mins I think) I was hooked up to an insulin drip for a couple of hours until I was awake and drinking normally. They tested my blood sugar every two hours all day after the op, so things were better then.

I am vegetarian & all they could offer me to eat for lunch, then dinner & the following lunch was jacket potatoes!! This was despite me telling them before I came in & being assured that there'd be something suitable on the trolley. Again, the ignorance was surprising, they just didn't realise that jacket potatoes are not a good food for a diabetic, neither did they seem to care. Eventually it was the cleaner who went down to the canteen & obtained a proper meal for me after she heard me tell the food trolley person that I did not want to eat a jacket potato for the third time and that they should have something else for me by now.

Good luck. I was amazed how good keyhole surgery is, I was moving my arm after three days & the scars are almost invisible after three years.
 

iHs

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Nomi said:
I used to split my background but have found that i need to take it in one go as i get a spike in the morning if i don't. i have tried adjusting each split dose but nothing works so i just tsick to one big dose in the evening which lasts well intot he following evening.
If i skip breakfast then surely that will make me more likely to hypo as i wont have had anything to eat? I know if i skip breakfast, by noon my blood sugar is beginning to hit the 4's and i need to eat.

confused!

I am planning on taking some packing up so that when i get out i can eat!! I tend to eat little and often so going all day without anything is going to be a challenge!

Hi Nomi

I used to inject just one dose of Lantus about 10.30pm every night and regularly woke up in the morning 7am to a lowish bg level and needed to have some sugar in my first morning cuppa. But I have had surgery done on my shoulder using Lantus and found that without any bolus, my bg levels started to elevate even though I had started the day with a really low bg. What I did on the morning because I couldnt eat any food was swallow one glucose tablet to take me up to a bg level of 4mmol. While I waited in the hospital for the surgery to be done I found that my bg levels went from 4mmol right up to 12mmol. I wasn't unduly worried, just bored with the waiting..... The op went ok though and I quickly gave myself a correction bolus when I was able to.

What I suggest you do is go without yr morning bolus and breakfast for a day or so before the surgery is done and then you'll be able to see how active Lantus really is. You can if you want reduce the eve basal but by doing so, yr morning bg will be higher and the Lantus wont be so active so you might need to do some bolus corrections. Its up to you really....... by all means do what you are comfortable with.

The surgeons telling you that your bg levels will go higher will be because of the surgery on your knee and a steroid injection being put in to kill any pain. Once the steroid loses its effect which it will do after a while, your bg levels will then start falling back to normal levels so you can then re adjust your bolus or maybe the basal. I'm sure a dsn will advise you.
 

Nomi

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151
thanks for the advice guys.
My background is levemir not lantus but i assume they're similar. I was planning on eating breakfast just before 6am and taking half the bolus dose for it and keeping my background the same the night before.
I only asked because the nurse at the pre assesment place didnt really know what to do and gave me a leaflet that they give to all diabetic patients, and told to ring the diabetes centre for advice( going to do tomorrow). I have been told to take my own lucozade etc so i can treat a hypo if required.I have even been told to take my own pen to fill out the menu!

I have had steroid tablets before and they made my bg crazy so i hope they dont last long! after the last experience i think i would prefer the pain!
I asked to have an earlier op but its an afternoon list and they said the best that they could do was to get me in near the beginning. I have heard some horrible stories about being diabetic in hospital so i intend to keep a close eye on my own blood sugar and not let the nurses interfere!

I was also told at the pre assesment to let everyone i speak to know i was diabetic. I appreciate they deal with a lot of people but it doesnt inspire much confidence if they dont know. I was also told i wasnt allowed to wear my medical alert bracelet in hospital, until i argued about it (surely if i have to tell them i'm diabetic then a medicalert is a good idea!) and now they have said i can wear it on the ward but not in theatre, which i was happy with. its amazing that people are allowed to work with diabetics and not know anything about the condition!
 

hanadr

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2 more questions
1 Does your Hospital subscrib to the *Think Glucose* initiative?
2 Have they said they'll put you on glucose and insulin infusions? This is often their strategy.
It should be possible to do the surgery on a sedative and a spinal block, which wouldn't mess up your regime so much.
Hana
 

noblehead

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copepod said:
Best to speak with knee surgery staff at pre op clinic - and ensure that thye have communicated with your diabetes clinic. It's surprising that you've been listed for afternoon, as usually people on insulin are operated on in morning, to make insulin / food / blood glucose management easier.


Copepod is right, I've had surgery twice and both times they operated in the morning due to being insulin dependant.
 

CarbsRok

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noblehead said:
copepod said:
Best to speak with knee surgery staff at pre op clinic - and ensure that thye have communicated with your diabetes clinic. It's surprising that you've been listed for afternoon, as usually people on insulin are operated on in morning, to make insulin / food / blood glucose management easier.


Copepod is right, I've had surgery twice and both times they operated in the morning due to being insulin dependant.
The consultant's list is afternoon as already stated by Nomi.
In this day and age it should not cause any problems at all :)
 

wiflib

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And talk to the anesthetist about the necessity for a GA. I had something called a Tibial Tubercle Transfer done under a spinal (lots of drilling and three screws in my shin) over ten years ago. I quite enjoyed chatting to everybody and even freaked the anesthetist out by having a bit of a doze.

wiflib
 

Nomi

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151
hanadr- I don't think they are part of that initiative but they did say they would put me on a glucose/insulin drip.

I'll ask about having a local anaesthetic instead if a general but I got the feeling that general is my only option. I'm not sure I would want to watch them doing it anyway!! Lol
I'm sure it'll all go ok just a bit nervous!

Thanks for all the advice:)

Nomi
 

Elc1112

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709
Hi Nomi,

Firstly, good luck with the surgery! Hope it goes well. I've actually got an op myself next week. I've been told to go into hospital the night before. They are going to put me on a drip and constanty monitor my levels. They've decided to do this as it's a five hour op so it's safer this way. Have you has your pre op yet? Discuss it with the hospital then - it put a lot of my concerns to rest. They'll be able to give you the best advice :)

Best of luck

Em x
 

Nomi

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Messages
151
Hi guys,
Had my op, all went well. Lowered my background the night before and slighty adjusted my dose with breakfast and all worked out fine:)
Question now is my knee is still swollen and I have stitches meaning I can't really move around much. I have slightly increased my levemir but my blood sugar keeps hanging around the 15-20 mark which is not good!! Any ideas behind the cause?

Thanks

X
 

Elc1112

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709
Hi Nomi,

Really glad the op went well. I had mine on Friday and got back from hospital yesterday. The first couple of days after surgery I could barely eat. Now I am eaton I find that even a small amount of food is having a huge impact on my sugars so I'm having to be really careful. Having spoken to the doctor he thinks it's a combination of antibiotics and the stress of the op. Keep an ye on it for the next few days and fingers crossed it will get better. As you get more mobile thugs should improve. Take it easy!

Emma
 

copepod

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Answer to swollen knee is elevation (keep you leg up when seated), compression bandage (Tubigrip, of right size, applied double, with open end nearest your body and fold nearest your foot, means you can take it off for shower / bath and reapply, whereas it's virtually impossible to apply a crepe bandage properly to yourself) exercises when seated and moving when not sitting. Didn't the surgical team tell you that before you came home?!?

As you can't be as active, go for a walk etc, you'll have to adjust your insulin doses until you can walk etc more.
 

CarbsRok

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Nomi said:
Hi guys,
Had my op, all went well. Lowered my background the night before and slighty adjusted my dose with breakfast and all worked out fine:)
Question now is my knee is still swollen and I have stitches meaning I can't really move around much. I have slightly increased my levemir but my blood sugar keeps hanging around the 15-20 mark which is not good!! Any ideas behind the cause?

Thanks

X
Hi Nomi,
glad to hear all went well with your op.
As to the blood sugars being so high there's a number of options in that dept. The op caused your body stress = higher blood sugars. Lack of exercise will raise blood sugars . Finally but not least did the surgeon by any chance inject a local aneasthetic plus a steroid in the knee? If so then you will pos need double insulin for about 10 days :(