T2 or NAFLD? ...or, a funny thing happened on the way to the surgery

Bcgirl

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Excellent reports! so glad your appointment went well and I am truly impressed with your numbers!

I heard through the grapevine that there is new research coming out with regards to the LMHR model. Basically new data will be released soon and those with high LDL will be very happy….guess we will have to wait and see.

My numbers are similar to yours (but I still run high fasting sugar and A1C in prediabetic territory) and fit into the LMHR model. Refuse statins every year and my doctor does not push them.
 
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Chris24Main

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@Chris24Main thank you so much for this. I'm still waiting for most of this year's results but oddly the nurse this year decided to add in a full blood count and white cell breakdown - not usually included and hadn't had this test for about 10 years! Interestingly just like you a high count of eosinophils has emerged of 1.3 so not in reference range! I wondered what it meant as I have never had asthma, had a recent low CRP and not feeling under the weather. So it was good to hear your theory about them being repurposed. Like you I have high LDL but decline statins as when I took them they made me ill. We already had the cholesterol discussion yesterday as it's been high for 9 years now so know it will be high again this year it's just how high! Interestingly I participated in a cardiovascular study three years ago as a person in remission from type two diabetes looking at cardiovascular risk. I had a day of lots of heart health tests including MRI and a Calcium score scan. My results looked promising including a CAC score of zero. this has helped me to make decisions about statins but nurse couldn't resist saying yesterday that I didn't know what it would be like three years on with another three years of high cholesterol!
Thanks for the input - and the insight. Cards on the table, I couldn't have told you what an eosinophil was a fortnight ago.

Bear in mind that this isn't my theory, only that this is what I think may be happening with me. I'll probably get my blood taken for the CRP test tomorrow, so if that also comes back low, as yours did, that further backs things up.

Almost a better way of contextualising is that in a person who is burning a lot of fat (on the basis that most people are burning mostly glucose) may simply need more ways of "letting off steam" ... almost literally - the ketones in my breath that I measure are totally non-functional, in the sense that they are forms of energy that I'm simply breathing out - wasting energy: so it kind of makes sense that a cell that is nearly universally seen as associated with bad things could be put to use wasting more energy by having fat storage cells generate heat.

On the long term view - that is one that is often brought up, and my gut reaction is that, well, we seemed to manage ok for the vast majority of time humans have existed leaving our bodies to determine the correct amount of cholesterol - it would be great if we had some of that sense of reservation about what long-term usage of huge amounts of seed oils, or out-of-season fruit in abundance, or any number of things that we take for granted, but are very new, evolutionary speaking.

But - just to say - I'm not for denigrating anyone's personal choices, and I do think there is a place for Statins, and they are effective for what they are supposed to do; I just don't see a compelling reason that this (impairing my ability to create certain lipoproteins) is a good enough, or well proven benefit compared to the mechanistic, negative effects it would have on my brain, liver and mitochondria.

I also do not want to sound like I dismiss heart health - particularly for us as a population; there should be nothing more important, in terms at least of not dying prematurely... I simply believe that the best thing I can do to reduce my own risk of CVD is to keep blood glucose and insulin down, and keep working on my blood pressure.

One interesting fact I discovered recently - the composition of arterial plaque: there is some cholesterol in there - that isn't in question; it was the discovery of cholesterol in the plaque of people who had died of heart attacks that started this all off. But, did you know how much?

There is about 1% of an arterial plaque consisting of cholesterol, the rest is mainly scar tissue, which is - biologically speaking - collagen.

Now, compare to the composition of the endothelium - that critical cell-wide lining of the arteries and veins, how much of that is cholesterol, given cholesterol's role in forming the structure of cell linings? -

- about 45%

I'll let that settle ...
 
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Chris24Main

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@Bcgirl - that grapevine wouldn't be talking about the work coming out of Dave Feldman's group, the citizen scientists? They have a documentary out that I haven't yet been able to get hold of, but I haven't given up on. "The Cholesterol Code" - (sadly, I wrote that from memory, just checked to make sure it was correct).

But yes, the lipid energy hypothesis and lean mass hyper responders. Fascinating.

I was initially quite confused by the term, but when you realise that 'hyper' just means high, not anything extreme or dare I say, hyperbolic... it makes a little more sense - a population of people who are not obese, but have higher than average LDL in response to a low-carb regime and don't seem to be having any issues with the level of heart problems that should be happening if LDL-C is really the biggest game in town.

Some of this is still controversial at worst, and if not controversial, then challenging. My recent appointments have given me a great boost in terms of where the medical establishment at least locally to me, is going with this, and as per my previous post, nobody should be making light of heart health, or dismissing anything out of hand. Statins can be beneficial for some. So is half an aspirin.

My hope for the like of this documentary is that it will open up the discussion a bit - the simple view of fat "clogging up your arteries" is hugely powerful, but really unhelpful and about as much use as chasing after a dog with rabies to grab a handful of its fur after it bit you. But - people did that... and probably longer that there have been statins.

Even if you feel that statins are not for you, LDL; as with almost any topic, is more complicated the more you look. It's simply that what is thought of as "normal" is based on a set of assumptions, and what is "desirable" is also based on a set of assumptions. These assumptions are then fairly regularly "proven" using methods that sound quite convincing, until they become "facts" that "we know" - like, "we know that saturated fat in the diet leads to higher risk of heart disease". I don't know how many times I've been told that as a given truth, but I've never been able to go back to actual data that verifies it - I can see plenty of confirmation of assumptions, and plenty of excuse-making when the opposite seems to be mathematically the case, and I can see plenty of misrepresentation of statistics. (the quote about lies, da*ned lies and statistics was coined long before the use of relative risk, which may be the most egregious misuse of statistics).

And again - all the data is from men (except for the Women's Health Initiative, which would not fill me with confidence if I was a woman)

LDL and HDL and LP(a) and all the other lipoproteins play a role in the damage and repair cycle of the arterial lining that can become built up and constructed of loose plaques, but so do red blood cells, macrophages, free radicals, platelet activation enzymes, and the quantity of oxidising or glycating molecules in the blood (not to mention the pressure that blood is under), plus the general health of the glycocalyx - a barrier on top of the endothelium that wasn't even known about when the initial heart-health hypothesis was being firmed up into "what we know".

And of course, smoke particles from cigarettes, wood burners, cars.. and increasingly plastic particles.
And stress hormones.

Lipid dysregulation (a state of being where the balance of the types of fat around your body, and in the particles designed to transport them) may or may not be a direct cause of CVD; but it's extremely likely to point to something being wrong in the balance of systems which are supposed to keep you healthy, and you really want those systems to be given as much time and energy as possible to do that job for you.

It does seem to me that a high level of triglycerides in your transport particles has always been a much better predictor of risk, simply because it's a better measure of the balance being out of whack.
Even the charity "Heart UK" which calls itself "the cholesterol charity" - acknowledges the risk of elevated triglycerides, particularly for someone with T2DM:


<I did read most of the article, it seemed fairly balanced and quite correct; I managed not to make too much of the way they describe the liver creating it's own lipoproteins in the form of VLDL (what are they made from again, oh yes, excess sugars mainly, and what do they become when they offload their triglycerides, oh yes, LDL - the very thing you go on to describe as "bad cholesterol" later) - but I had to stop as soon as the dreaded "clogging up the arteries" phrase was deployed - oh well>
 
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agwagw

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Just a quick reply to agree with you about Metformin. It is an extremely cheap drug and the NHS hands it out as the first treatment and it is very difficult in some cases for them to stop and think about more appropriate treatment regimes, they just keep upping the dose even when it isn't improving anything and the side effects of gut pain and vague nausea are so debilitating.
 

Chris24Main

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Metformin is a complex medication that affects us in lots of different ways. I was at a point where I was stopping one thing and being asked to switch to another, and figured that now was as good a time as any to try to manage without any meds. That worked for me, but it's not going to be the right choice for everyone, and there are plenty of people on this forum who have a generally good experience with Metformin; I'm not going to get between anyone and any medication. Or any choice of anything, really.

Funnily enough though, I just got done watching an interview with a practicing doctor (who for full disclosure does prescribe statins, but in low dose for it's anti-inflammatory effect) who talked about a study that showed Metformin to be thirty percent as effective as even mild lifestyle changes. I didn't keep or look up the reference, so tag that as 'interesting but not possible to verify' - it's horses for courses. It's also hugely difficult where you have (as you are @agwagw ) a population of patients who simply must take a med to replace something no longer there, and a population who may or may not need some meds for a period of time, and then increasingly there are complex interactions with meds for other conditions, or steroids. We're so conditioned to accept the med, but that's a two way street - and I know I've been totally guilty of going to a doctor and expecting a snappy diagnosis and a prescription. There is so much more that we can do for ourselves, but that doesn't need a doctor to tell us...

Given the chances of having serious downsides are relatively small (particularly with the slow release metformin) it's easy to see why it's prescribed so readily though.

Recently - I went to an appointment with a 'health and wellness' specialist - and was amazed to hear him say that intermittent fasting should be offered as a first stage intervention (for T2DM) for most people prior to any meds.

I - of course - think that the science backs that up, but I wonder how that would go down - even how I would have reacted initially, when I thought I was perfectly healthy, how would I have reacted if someone had "offered" that I should begin a regime that involved not eating on a random basis.

I probably needed to go through some pain first before I was willing to hear that, if I'm totally honest. And it made a difference to me that it was a plan I had come up with - someone telling you that you should eat in a different way is challenging to hear...
 
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Bcgirl

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@Bcgirl - that grapevine wouldn't be talking about the work coming out of Dave Feldman's group, the citizen scientists? They have a documentary out that I haven't yet been able to get hold of, but I haven't given up on. "The Cholesterol Code" - (sadly, I wrote that from memory, just checked to make sure it was correct).

But yes, the lipid energy hypothesis and lean mass hyper responders. Fascinating.

I was initially quite confused by the term, but when you realise that 'hyper' just means high, not anything extreme or dare I say, hyperbolic... it makes a little more sense - a population of people who are not obese, but have higher than average LDL in response to a low-carb regime and don't seem to be having any issues with the level of heart problems that should be happening if LDL-C is really the biggest game in town.

Some of this is still controversial at worst, and if not controversial, then challenging. My recent appointments have given me a great boost in terms of where the medical establishment at least locally to me, is going with this, and as per my previous post, nobody should be making light of heart health, or dismissing anything out of hand. Statins can be beneficial for some. So is half an aspirin.

My hope for the like of this documentary is that it will open up the discussion a bit - the simple view of fat "clogging up your arteries" is hugely powerful, but really unhelpful and about as much use as chasing after a dog with rabies to grab a handful of its fur after it bit you. But - people did that... and probably longer that there have been statins.

Even if you feel that statins are not for you, LDL; as with almost any topic, is more complicated the more you look. It's simply that what is thought of as "normal" is based on a set of assumptions, and what is "desirable" is also based on a set of assumptions. These assumptions are then fairly regularly "proven" using methods that sound quite convincing, until they become "facts" that "we know" - like, "we know that saturated fat in the diet leads to higher risk of heart disease". I don't know how many times I've been told that as a given truth, but I've never been able to go back to actual data that verifies it - I can see plenty of confirmation of assumptions, and plenty of excuse-making when the opposite seems to be mathematically the case, and I can see plenty of misrepresentation of statistics. (the quote about lies, da*ned lies and statistics was coined long before the use of relative risk, which may be the most egregious misuse of statistics).

And again - all the data is from men (except for the Women's Health Initiative, which would not fill me with confidence if I was a woman)

LDL and HDL and LP(a) and all the other lipoproteins play a role in the damage and repair cycle of the arterial lining that can become built up and constructed of loose plaques, but so do red blood cells, macrophages, free radicals, platelet activation enzymes, and the quantity of oxidising or glycating molecules in the blood (not to mention the pressure that blood is under), plus the general health of the glycocalyx - a barrier on top of the endothelium that wasn't even known about when the initial heart-health hypothesis was being firmed up into "what we know".

And of course, smoke particles from cigarettes, wood burners, cars.. and increasingly plastic particles.
And stress hormones.

Lipid dysregulation (a state of being where the balance of the types of fat around your body, and in the particles designed to transport them) may or may not be a direct cause of CVD; but it's extremely likely to point to something being wrong in the balance of systems which are supposed to keep you healthy, and you really want those systems to be given as much time and energy as possible to do that job for you.

It does seem to me that a high level of triglycerides in your transport particles has always been a much better predictor of risk, simply because it's a better measure of the balance being out of whack.
Even the charity "Heart UK" which calls itself "the cholesterol charity" - acknowledges the risk of elevated triglycerides, particularly for someone with T2DM:


<I did read most of the article, it seemed fairly balanced and quite correct; I managed not to make too much of the way they describe the liver creating it's own lipoproteins in the form of VLDL (what are they made from again, oh yes, excess sugars mainly, and what do they become when they offload their triglycerides, oh yes, LDL - the very thing you go on to describe as "bad cholesterol" later) - but I had to stop as soon as the dreaded "clogging up the arteries" phrase was deployed - oh well>
Yes, and the results came out this morning
i just watched Nick Norwitz review the results and am looking forward to reading the entire study when I get a chance
Here is the study
Looks like now I need to get a heart scan….
 
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Chris24Main

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Yes, and the results came out this morning
i just watched Nick Norwitz review the results and am looking forward to reading the entire study when I get a chance
Here is the study
Looks like now I need to get a heart scan….
Is it just me, or is Nick's beard forming a little forked tip?
Absolutely.. I'm so impressed with that whole piece of research, and so far the results look incredibly interesting... not to mention highly puzzling if you're all in on "bad cholesterol causes heart disease". Some of those numbers are just astounding.
 

Outlier

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Because I just scan-read the text and am lazy - do I understand correctly that biological females were not tested as part of the research?
 

Chris24Main

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A bit of a rambling excursion to the concept of grounding, though I didn't understand it that way at the time. Not at all related to this forum, buh I came across someone personally talking enthusiastically about "structured" water, and showing off a water bottle that they had bought, which had a pattern of magnets around the outside of the water bottle. There was more enthusiasm than scientific thinking, but this person had been sold on the idea that people are positively charged, and that "structuring" water in this way could balance that charge, in some way that wasn't totally obvious from what they were saying. Internally, the engineer in me was both scoffing at the ridiculousness of this pseudo-scientific nonsense, but also storing away a topic that I should look into more deeply before writing off completely.

My initial thought was that this product was simply a kind of de-inonised water. In the sense that most impurities in water are mineral ions, so you could make a case that de-ionised water is more pure, and therefore better for you. Fun fact; I work in an area of engineering that requires very pure, highly de-inoised water, and it's actually ridiculously poisonous. Water is an amazing and unique substance - there are several ways that water is different from anything else in nature, I won't bore you with all of that, but suffice to say that it has an incredible appetite for dissolving stuff in it - take the most obvious example; grind some salt into water, and now you have the basis for sea water; of which there is quite a lot of on this little planet of ours. That salt - formerly a crystalline molecule (and we got quite deep in the woods over salt crystals a while ago) - now separates in to sodium and chloride ions - charged particles that kind of relax apart from each other, and would combine again if you let the water dry off - indeed that is the fundamental process for "making" sea salt.

Anyway - if that's simple enough, you can appreciate the concept that sea water is simply water with lots of different mineral ions, all held in solution, and all with their own tiny electrical charges. Coming back to very pure water for a second - the reason it's so dangerous, is that the appetite that water has for these charged ions is so great, that if you manufacture a quantity of extremely pure H2O - it will act as a hoover for any and all mineral ions it can get hold of... so put your hand in a jar of de-ionised water, and it will suck all the minerals out of your skin. Really quite dangerous, but of course, it doesn't exist in nature, because it would quickly suck enough minerals out of the air and anything it was in contact with until it becomes the complex solution that we think of as "water".

So - it should come as no great surprise, that the very earliest developments of batteries involved metal plates with brine in between them. The very idea of a battery is that if you can arrange to separate a solution of high concentration of ions from a low concentration, then the system will want to come into balance, and if you get the materials right, you can make use of the ions flowing from high to low concentration in the form of an electrical current.

Coming back to that fancy water bottle, my first guess was that it was just a way of selling a scientific-sounding term, but then I started digging into what "structured water" claims to be.

And, it's kind of interesting; the theory is that with the addition of this pattern of magnets, the "structure" of the water is changed into a hexagonal pattern, which is more like what you may find in natural streams, or glacier melt, and is therefore more pure and health positive, giving benefits to immune system and energy etc.

Now - if you sit back and think through everything I started off with about very pure water, and that being totally un-natural, and highly poisonous.. and then think about the quantities of mineral impurities that would likely exist in water that has been trapped in glacial ice for millions of years - you can see how the idea of magnetising the water in some way making it more "natural" and "pure" is deeply contradictory, and a little silly.

Good water really shouldn't be very pure, it just shouldn't contain actively toxic substances in solution, like fecal matter and harmful bacteria - but despite my overall frustration with the major water companies, they have gotten pretty good at filtering out the really dangerous stuff from water. I think there will be a push for better removal of micro plastics from tap water, but that's a whole different story.

So, in my opinion (and in the absence of any evidence I can find) that magnetising water cannot change the structure of a liquid - which by definition has no structure, and that it cannot remove impurities in the form of mineral ions in solution - because otherwise, you could make salt with a cup of water and a magnet - all of this is nonsensical pseudo-science on it's face, except that maybe it's just doing something else...

For example - what else do we know about magnetism - if you were lucky enough to have gone to school while using a Van de Graff generator wasn't considered dangerous, you may know that your hair will stand up on end when you put your hands on one, or that if you rub a balloon on a wooly jumper it will stick to the wall - All of these phenomena are basically the same thing as the charged ions in sea water, except it's now charged ions in air - rubbing that balloon causes positive charges to collect on your jumper - leaving the balloon negatively charged (with an excess of electrons) so that it will "stick" to the wall, like a magnet "sticks" to the fridge.

Thunder and lightning is somewhat similar, in that big clouds rub together and this causes the positive charges to rise to the top, and leaves an excess of electrons on the underside of the clouds - with enough negative charge, the cloud "grounds" to earth by creating a stream of electrons, ripping through the air to the nearest point that will receive them - this we know as lightning.

So - all of that makes sense, right? all these huge visible effects, all on account of different concentrations of charged particles - it's impossible to witness a thunderstorm, and dismiss it all as nonsensical pseudo science -

So, then - this was all bouncing around in my head as I got deeper into the way that we generate energy at the cellular level - the electron transport chain in mitochondria and the redox cycles that feed into it...

Hold on; not so fast, I hear you say...

I should take a moment to try to lay out the basics of these, because it's just too much of a jump to say - lightning and then cellular redox potential - and expect anyone to follow that.

Redox - stands for Reduction and Oxidisation - Literally giving and taking of electrons. If you study this stuff like I do, eventually you have to take on what (NADH & NAD+) means - and essentially they are simply ions, with or without their charge. If you entirely skip the chemistry, and think of these charges as currency - like banknotes, then some of this makes more intrinsic sense - it's just like an economy, with people buying and selling things - those things change hands, and at the same time, those banknotes change hands. It's all very similar; stuff gets made, and a price is paid (by passing a charge as a transaction of energy).

So - a lot of really complex metabolic pathway diagrams can be thought of like a market, with people milling around, and buying and selling stuff. They may be from different guilds - and have preferred trading partners and product types that they deal in, but they all use the same form of currency.

And this is where I'm homing in (mercifully) on a conclusion. That currency, those metaphorical banknotes, are free electrons. Almost all meaningful chemical processes in the complex balance of life, revolve around ions being able to exchange free electrons in order to change one thing into another, and the concept of the "redox potential" in any given cell, so therefore the entire body - is a measure of the amount of banknotes in circulation, if you like, the availability of free electrons that can take part in this process.

Where might we get some of that? you may be asking, and the answer should be obvious by now... The earth itself.

The earth has an abundance of free electrons; that's why we call the part of an electrical system where the positive charge goes, or the safety "drain" for live on a house wiring diagram, or plug - "earth"- it's literally the same thing - no need to invoke any pseudo science whatever - it's all very simple and real. For the purposes of your local electrician, "the earth" is simply defined as a place that can supply an infinite amount of free elecrons.

So - in order for your metabolism to work effectively, it's actually quite important to ground yourself to a source of free electrons - this recharges your batteries, in a very literal sense.

The trouble is, any discussion about "grounding" often talks about walking barefoot through the forest, like the important thing is some kind of communing with our ancestral forebears, or becoming one with the wood sprites - no ... it's all just simple physics - you can get the same benefit by regularly touching the radiators in your house, anything that connects you electrically to "ground" is equally good - but is genuinely a good thing, and not to be dismissed. You cannot have any kind of complex electrical system without a decent ground (have a conversation about grounding with any kind of audiophile if you suspect there is no such thing as poor grounding) and our bodies are just the same. We spend so much time insulated (think about that wool jumper again) that we don't get the natural passing of charge from the earth that we have evolved to need.

Now - to come back to the structured water - my though after all that, is that the magnetic charge simply creates a minor negative charge in the water - that's totally possible... the movement of ions in the water surrounded by a directional magnetic field - yeah, that's totally possible. Not enough to power your phone or anything, but enough that you can claim it as a thing, and sell it, and maybe even enough to make a difference to anyone who doesn't understand what grounding is, and isn't getting enough - it could produce effects on the immune system, and energy levels, all to the point of seeming to justify the claims.

What this all means, is - if someone tells you that you can get all these magical benefits from a fancy water bottle weighed down with a pattern of magnets on the outside - just tell them that there's no need - you have a direct line to Thor himself, and he'll sort it out for you.
 
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Bcgirl

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Always a sceptic I found your post very interesting. i live very near what has been dubbed by Tibetan priests as the Centre of the Universe. This is said to emit powers from the earth among other things. The monks failed to acquire the land and although they visit often the site sits quietly in its little valley, a true site to behold. I took my sister in law and her friend there , mostly out of curiosity. We paid the landowners our fee and they took us on a tour. Shoes had to be removed and we wandered the trail, getting pricked by pine needles as we made our way to the sacred site. We passed the hugging tree (yes, we hugged a tree), walked three times around a small shrub (clockwise, of course) and then entered the site, a lovely hillside deep in the Vidette Valley. The monks had left markers at each important area and we were told to wander around until we felt something. I grinned…ok, I’ll keep an open mind….sure enough i did feel an amazing sense of calm and then I turned and saw my SIL sobbing on a rock….what the heck! We stayed for a bit and honestly it was quite amazing. Was it just the beauty of the place? Is there special electrical activity? As we left he site and drove to the nearby waterfalls the car was silent….honestly this left an impression on us all. It’s been a few years, maybe I should return….
 
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Antje77

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What this all means, is - if someone tells you that you can get all these magical benefits from a fancy water bottle weighed down with a pattern of magnets on the outside - just tell them that there's no need - you have a direct line to Thor himself, and he'll sort it out for you.
:hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious:

if you were lucky enough to have gone to school while using a Van de Graff generator wasn't considered dangerous
It's considered dangerous now? Aw, standing on an upturned plastic bin with my hand on the head of the generator was the most fun lesson! Even though it did hurt a bit when a tightening strand (no idea what to call it in English) with a metal end from my coat swung too close to the table, giving me shocks not unlike an electric fence with every swing. A perfect reason for a more in depth lesson on static electricity and indeed, lightning. :hilarious:
 

Outlier

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This is such fascinating information, and I wish my physics lessons had been as well explained!

Re: sacred sites - a few years ago I fulfilled a long-held ambition and went to Glastonbury. I climbed the Tor and felt nothing spiritual but was glad to have done so. But....I went round the Abbey and it was so powerful that I, who rarely cry, was reduced to tears. About half an hour later, once I'd composed myself, I saw a chap who was doing a most un-English thing - he was in tears too.

Whatever kind of natural force was there was certainly there. The person I was with felt nothing at the Abbey but was unable to climb the Tor. It's some place. Glastonbury.
 

Chris24Main

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Last time I was in Glastonbury was for the festival in 1989 - nothing spiritual whatever occurred that couldn't be easily explained by narcotics... (at least in my case; but I do have some brilliant memories)

...

Fabulous responses, and I totally agree - science is about testing hypotheses for observable phenomena, mysticism is about making up explanations for those same phenomena and persuading people to believe them. Within that, there is plenty of space to aknowledge that we don't know how to explain everything.

Occasionally my daughter asks me if I believe in magic - and every time I say yes - nobody can fall in love and not believe in magic just a little.

Approaching the "grounding" thing from the perspective of mitochondria being tiny batteries opens up a lot of other interesting lines of thought - so, there are roughly 100 trillion mitochondria in your body, but not spread around evenly - heart cells have massive amounts of them, muscle and liver cells come a close second, but if you were to plot them out in some way (this all speculation now, I haven't seen anything of this nature) - I would bet that you would end up with something that looks like a diagram drawn in China hundreds of years ago as a training guide for acupuncture.

Even if that isn't at all true, you can easily see acupuncture as a way of injecting tiny amounts of energy directly to clusters of high mitochondrial activity..

You can also think of the entire world as more of an electrical network - there is no reason to think that all the charge (which is undeniable and measurable) settles around the surface equally, any more than you might think that all the water in the oceans just sits in the same place, at the same temperature. We are discovering more and more about the communication networks between plants and trees through the soils.. so the idea that there are places where there are strangely affecting movements of energy? - I cannot explain in detail, but it's no more surprising to me as an engineer than the idea that you do not want to go sailing in places known for strong tides or whirlpools.

I used to train and teach martial arts. One of the things that fascinated me was the way that you could describe techniques equally well by using western terms like "balance" - "leverage" and "momentum"- or you could revert to the original texts that talked about body energy, focus, and connectedness, and still be meaning the same thing. I was fortunate enough to take a lesson once where the teacher first tried to push me, and could not, then without appearing to move, projected me a meter backwards onto my butt. You don't need to have an explanation for it to know it as a true thing.
 

Chris24Main

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I quite regularly find myself in Cathedrals - My wife studied medieval history, so it's just a thing we do... but from the ruins of a Cistercian monastery to a Gothic classic like York minster to the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona, you cannot - not - feel something. For me, it's less about the proof of any spiritual being, and more about the proof of the spiritual component of the nature of man as a species - for our need to believe.

Just to pull back from this misty eyed esotericism for a second, there is an overlap - our need to believe extends somewhat to the medical arts. The Placebo effect isn't just Scotch mist, and our relationship with our physicians (and I use the word very deliberately) is extremely important, and we just do better when we have faith in that relationship.

This is - I think - why I feel so strongly that I need to do anything I can reasonably do to nudge the medical system in the "right" direction. I realise how haughty and self-rIghteous that sounds, but I mean small steps, and I mean mostly about taking better personal responsibility - after a lifetime of just asking for a quick diagnosis and the prescription, if you please...
 

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I notice that the very young medics I come across are much more willing to discuss instead of give orders and medication, and appear to be interested in each one of us as an individual in our responses to treatment. Maybe the training has changed or maybe it's a social change, but whatever drives it means it's a great improvement.
 

Melgar

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Circling back to the water and Glastonbury, I have visited Glastonbury several times, and climbed those steps to the Tor ( I agree @Outlier the Tor is a very moving spiritual experience). Then there is the Chalice well, situated in the gardens, I think near the ruins of the Abbey. If I recall there are two springs, a red one and a white one. The two waters symbolizing the god and the goddess, male energy and female energy as it were. The red water, which I tasted, smelt and tasted of iron. I believe it is ferrous oxide that gives it that distinct red colour and iron taste. So @Chris24Main I'm guessing from what you have said, the spring water runs through iron rich land and absorbs the ferrous oxide giving the water that red colour and the taste of iron. It was like tasting blood.

Interesting that your wife studied medieval history. My father in law, I have two, one is a math bod and very much alive, the other, Michael Altschul was a medieval historian. A Rhodes scholar. He died quite a few years ago. As he is deceased I don't think I have broken forum rules naming him. He wrote the seminal work on the Baronial Clares family. He had a magnificent library, most of which was donated the university, but he gave me quite a few of his books on Norman England, which I cherish.
 
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Chris24Main

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So, my wife tells me that while she hasn't come across any of his works, she does know books written by his dissertation supervisor.. so there you go (I can't claim any kind of authority on history, medieval or otherwise, though I do find myself digging into little pieces fairly often)
 
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Chris24Main

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It's a bit of a tangent, but the most moving thing or place I've been to is the memorial to the murdered Jews of Europe in central Berlin. Not the same kind of thing at all, but just incredibly moving.

Oddly enough.. @Melgar ... you would think it was that simple for the red stream... but it's not.. ferrous oxide is black, and the red colour you associate with rust... well, thats ferric oxide, and that doesn't dissolve in water. So.. it's actually just iron.. directly dissolving in the water as ionic iron... and then that oxidises.. giving you iron oxide.
 
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