The one show discussion

AdamJames · Jun 5, 2018

ringi said:
Remember that if inslin levels are too high the body can not access as much of its own fat, so must access the muscle mass for energy. This will very much demand on each persons level of inslin resistance.

Thankfully once the liver fat is lost, inslin restanance drops a lot, there is also a nice drop after the first few days once most of the glycogen in the liver is used up. Hence it can take a few weeks before keystones are detectable. (Also way these diets should not be used for too short a time.)

Do you think there is something to be said for the idea that, for one given individual, eating 50g carbs a day and doing a bit of weight training may give them similar results as eating 100g of carbs a day and doing a bit more weight training? Both in terms of weight loss and preservation of muscle mass.

Obviously within limits - someone eating 500g carbs a day may not be able to do enough weight training to counter the negative impact of insulin, and someone doing no weight training isn't going to get great results even on extremely low carbs.

ringi · Jun 5, 2018

Maybe, but way take the risk of eating the carbs.....

Bluetit1802 · Jun 5, 2018

Does this mean that in my case I have no muscles? Or does walking a dog that constantly pulls on the lead count?

ringi · Jun 5, 2018

Holding up your own weight is restiance training, hence one reason people lose muscles when they lose weight. Just getting someone to stand up every 20 minutes have been proven to be of benifit.

first14808 · Jun 5, 2018

Bluetit1802 said:
Does this mean that in my case I have no muscles? Or does walking a dog that constantly pulls on the lead count?

Walking is decent exercise, both for cardio and resistance. Pulling your dog back to heel gives your arms a bit of a workout, as would throwing a ball or stick. Dogs are good exercise aids and personal trainers

Bluetit1802 · Jun 5, 2018

first14808 said:
Walking is decent exercise, both for cardio and resistance. Pulling your dog back to heel gives your arms a bit of a workout, as would throwing a ball or stick. Dogs are good exercise aids and personal trainers

It has served me well. The dog pulling also helps me with the brisk pace!!!!!

Boo1979 · Jun 5, 2018

AdamJames said:
You get a 'winner' for that just based on the sense of optimism it's given me

The most positive study I'd seen prior to that was where a lot of resistance training was done. But I don't think even that got such spectacular results.

So in summary people lost about 20kg, and had a reduction in RMR of about 200 cal/day, most of that expected due to lowered BMI. The final RMR was only 60 cals/day less than someone of the target weight who had never been obese.

I was worried by the line near the start that read "These three steps were maintained until the patient lost the target amount of weight, ideally 80%" but I'm glad I carried on reading!

I couldn't see the exact foods used, but they give enough detail to possibly come up with a similar meal plan. Do you know if the detail of the foods is available anywhere?

One thing to temper the optimism (sorry) is that diabetes was an exclusion criteria for in the study - may or may not have made a significant difference

Guzzler · Jun 5, 2018

AdamJames said:
Do you think there is something to be said for the idea that, for one given individual, eating 50g carbs a day and doing a bit of weight training may give them similar results as eating 100g of carbs a day and doing a bit more weight training? Both in terms of weight loss and preservation of muscle mass.

Obviously within limits - someone eating 500g carbs a day may not be able to do enough weight training to counter the negative impact of insulin, and someone doing no weight training isn't going to get great results even on extremely low carbs.

Ahem!

Oldvatr · Jun 5, 2018

AdamJames said:
I think the weight loss is important for this particular approach. I see this approach as being all about getting fat out of the pancreas cells ASAP in order to get a recently diagnosed T2 patient out of the danger zone, carb-tolerance wise, so that they can go back to eating a fairly normal diet provided they don't clog up their pancreas cells again.

A lifelong LCHF diet approach is different. It may, in passing, have the same effect (restoration of some sort of normality in terms of carb tolerance due to getting rid of fat from the pancreas, if weight loss happens to occur) but the effect is less important as the diet doesn't require particularly good carb tolerance.

Given what we know about the likelihood of getting rid of a ton of weight and keeping it off for live, for me the LCHF approach seems like a safer bet, but the ND approach is more exciting in terms of pure science / biology. I'm really interested to see this documentary tomorrow if indeed they have been doing the ND approach.

According to the maker of the optifast shakes used in the ND diet stage 2, it is at a carb level just above ketosis for most people, but some would have been in ketosis for at least part of the day. The ND team did not refer to ketosis, but that is probably to keep mainstream interest up, and not to frighten the participants. It also avoided awkward questions being raised, and after all Slimfast is very similar, and that is widely accepted by nutitionists whereas ketosis is generally a No-No, The ND team also wanted to prevent kno- it-alls from declaring any successs being solely due to keto diet or low carb, whereas the aim of ND was to emulate a post op bariatric bypass condition by calorie restriction. But the Optifast 800 cal diet is a standard weight loss regime that Optifast does state can cause mild ketosis.

bulkbiker · Jun 5, 2018

Oldvatr said:
The ND team also wanted to prevent kno- it-alls from declaring any successs being solely due to keto diet or low carb, whereas the aim of ND was to emulate a post op bariatric bypass condition by calorie restriction. But the Optifast 800 cal diet is a standard weight loss regime that Optifast does state can cause mild ketosis.

Like me you mean! haha
So if pre-op they are in mild ketosis and post-op calories are obviously restricted then I guess that means that bariatric surgery patients are in surgery enforced ketosis? So is it down to the surgery or the ketosis that they have such great results.. hmm wonder if that study will ever be done?

rab5 · Jun 5, 2018

Surely bariatric surgery= fasting

https://idmprogram.com/bariatrics-surgically-enforced-fasting-t2d-6/

Shiba Park · Jun 5, 2018

lucylocket61 said:
we are a community, here to support one another. Learning how to phrase our comments is part of the learning process in forums. Sometimes we get it wrong, but usually we learn form our mistakes, apologise and try to change our wording and attitudes. I am concerned that you seem to neither be learning acceptable phraseology, or be willing to learn.

It would be helpful for you to also to broaden your understanding of the many difference and challenges people have on here, and respect and accept their different approaches and solutions.

Caveat: my comments below are not directed to@lucylocket61 or any other specific individual. I chose to quote this post as there are sentiments I mostly agree with but equally are applicable to both 'sides'.

I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of posts in this thread are making uncomfortable reading. There's far too much passive aggression for my liking. Where's the understanding, help and support?

The quote above just as eadily be phrased as follows:
We are a community, here to support one another. Learning how to READ OTHERS comments is part of the learning process in forums. Sometimes we get it wrong, but usually we learn form our mistakes, apologise and try to change our INTERPRETATION and attitudes. I am concerned that you seem to neither be learning acceptable INTERPRETATION, or be willing to learn.

Boo1979 · Jun 5, 2018

bulkbiker said:
Like me you mean! haha
So if pre-op they are in mild ketosis and post-op calories are obviously restricted then I guess that means that bariatric surgery patients are in surgery enforced ketosis? So is it down to the surgery or the ketosis that they have such great results.. hmm wonder if that study will ever be done?

Does it matter?

rab5 · Jun 5, 2018

Boo1979 said:
Does it matter?

It would matter if you can get the same or better results from fasting keto diet v a dramatic invasive operation.

Just saying!

Oldvatr · Jun 5, 2018

bulkbiker said:
Like me you mean! haha
So if pre-op they are in mild ketosis and post-op calories are obviously restricted then I guess that means that bariatric surgery patients are in surgery enforced ketosis? So is it down to the surgery or the ketosis that they have such great results.. hmm wonder if that study will ever be done?

That I believe was the original aim of the ND study. To find out why bariatric surgery was so effective in reversing T2D. The diet plan was devised to emulate that of a post surgery patient and then use that to see what effects it had on the body. The participants I believe had to not be using diabetes medication as a condition of the trial. I have no idea if bariatric post operative patients are in ketosis, since I do not know what the recommendations for that is, but I do not think it is required to be low carb.
I think also that an objective of the study was also to see if there was a cheaper non invasive method of getting equivalent results to that of surgery/ So a bit of chicken vs egg there.

Boo1979 · Jun 5, 2018

rab5 said:
It would matter if you can get the same or better results from fasting keto diet v a dramatic invasive operation.

Just saying!

At a theoretical level absolutely, but the question was whether the people who had had bariatric surgery had lost weight because of ketosis or not and I doubt they give a stuff.

rab5 · Jun 5, 2018

Boo1979 said:
At a theoretical level absolutely, but the question was whether the people who had had bariatric surgery had lost weight because of ketosis or not and I doubt those whove had the surgery give a stuff.

well of course it is too late for the people who have had surgery.... lol

bulkbiker · Jun 5, 2018

Boo1979 said:
Does it matter?

Well if you look at it as change of diet against major surgery then maybe?

bulkbiker · Jun 5, 2018

Boo1979 said:
At a theoretical level absolutely, but the question was whether the people who had had bariatric surgery had lost weight because of ketosis or not and I doubt they give a stuff.

No it wasn’t

AdamJames · Jun 5, 2018

Guzzler said:
Ahem!

Is that referring to the bit where I was wondering if someone doing no weight training wouldn't get such great results even on low carbs?

To be clear, I'm talking about the remarkable lack of RMR reduction in that VLCK diet study. Not blood glucose control. I know you're a great example of blood glucose regulation without doing weights. And come to think of it I'm currently a great example of appalling blood glucose regulation in spite of regularly making my massive body go up and down hills, which has to be pretty hefty resistance training for my legs.

I'd be fascinated to know what our RMRs are!

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