The Randle Cycle.

[Zhnyaka]

The only foods I eat are animal proteins and animal fats. "No carbs whatsoever. If you don't eat anything, you'll feed and get your energy from your own muscle and body fat by the "gluconeogenesis pathway", it's a process that transforms non carbohydrates. Carbs are not essential, we do not need to ingest any plants, grains, fruits, seeds, sugar, honey or any other form of carbs.

You're lucky. I tried not to eat carbohydrates at all and it didn't lead to anything good, and fats are a separate hell for my insulin therapy, it's easier for me to give up fat, because I can perfectly control carbohydrates, and fats slow down insulin so much that after eating it I think I'll die before my insulin works

 

[HSSS]

The glycogen stored in the liver is derived from the glucose in the food you have eaten by the process of glycogenesis.

Or the protein and even fats you’ve eaten if there are no carbs via gluconeogenesis

 

[Zhnyaka]

Or the protein and even fats you’ve eaten if there are no carbs via gluconeogenesis

A very stupid question, but is glycogenesis even possible without insulin? I don't know very well how glycogenesis occurs, but I know that insulin restores the ability of the liver to produce glycogen

 

[JohnEGreen]

Or the protein and even fats you’ve eaten if there are no carbs via gluconeogenesis

I thought that's what I said it is derived from what you have eaten.
And then when needed the glycogen is broken down by glycogenolysis back into glucose to be passed back into the blood.

 

[Riva_Roxaban]

Mmmm! Reminds me of the "hunter / gatherer gene" theory that was touted on this forum a while back.

It was a good story, but needed more dragons such as this one.

Sorry, but I have never heard of these so called mythical cycles...

 

[HSSS]

I thought that's what I said it is derived from what you have eaten.
And then when needed the glycogen is broken down by glycogenolysis back into glucose to be passed back into the blood.

Depends on your definition of derived I guess.

is derived from the glucose in the food

Glucose isn’t in proteins and fats. It’s made from it in the right circumstances Ie Gluconeogenesis

 

[AloeSvea]

Hi @Billy Barroo. I have always found the Randle Cycle flow charts fascinating, if only for the reason that they indicate the incredible complexity of our blood glucose, and blood lipids regulation system. It certainly shows the complexity of the relationship between blood lipids, fats and blood glucose, to my mind at least.

As someone who suffers from dyslipidemia - where my blood lipids are clearly abnormal, if I want to understand why - I just take a look at the Randle Cycle, and all is clear, by being - so complex!

I didn't really think of it as something to believe in , or not.

It does show why high fat and high carbs is such a dynamite combo for we humans, but for someone with diabetes? (both types I take it?) - oh yes.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Depends on your definition of derived I guess.

Glucose isn’t in proteins and fats. It’s made from it in the right circumstances Ie Gluconeogenesis

The definition I go by is:
to take, receive, or obtain, especially from a specified source. specifically : to obtain (a chemical substance) actually or theoretically from a parent substance.

What's yours

 

[Jaylee]

Glucose isn’t in proteins and fats. It’s made from it in the right circumstances Ie Gluconeogenesis

Breaks down slower in the gut too. Compared to carbs. The “Randal cycle” for me only addresses one angle on a wider complex process.

Up until a couple of years back, I had a dog. I perused the pet shelving for food. There were these peel off portion tins with labelling & pictorial reference to a “human menu?” (On this one brand.)

Now I know humans have been cross breeding dogs for hundreds on years. But there is nothing going to convince me dog are evolved enough to naturally cook a chicken pasta up. Let alone metabolise it.

He died a ripe old age of 18 enjoying white meat & fish. Unfortunately red meat really played his guts up..

A very stupid question, but is glycogenesis even possible without insulin? I don't know very well how glycogenesis occurs, but I know that insulin restores the ability of the liver to produce glycogen

@Zhnyaka ,

This might help..?

 

[Zhnyaka]

This might help..?

so insulin has nothing to do with it? Thank you, a very useful video, although my knowledge of chemistry is not enough to understand it completely.

 

[Jaylee]

so insulin has nothing to do with it? Thank you, a very useful video, although my knowledge of chemistry is not enough to understand it completely.

Well??
We still all need insulin. In our case “basal.” Or sometimes a correction dose of bolus if things get out of hand?
The glycogen dumped back into the bloodstream still needs processing to start the cycle again..

 

[JohnEGreen]

so insulin has nothing to do with it? Thank you, a very useful video, although my knowledge of chemistry is not enough to understand it completely.

"A very stupid question, but is glycogenesis even possible without insulin? "


glycogenesis, the formation of glycogen, the primary carbohydrate stored in the liver and muscle cells of animals, from glucose. Glycogenesis takes place when blood glucose levels are sufficiently high to allow excess glucose to be stored in liver and muscle cells. Glycogenesis is stimulated by the hormone insulin.

 

[Zhnyaka]

Well??
We still all need insulin. In our case “basal.” Or sometimes a correction dose of bolus if things get out of hand?
The glycogen dumped back into the bloodstream still needs processing to start the cycle again..

I meant glycogen is not synthesized under the action of insulin. I read that in 1921 it was a cool discovery when it was discovered that after the introduction of insulin in the liver of an experimental animal there was glycogen. God forbid to give up insulin, I want to live

 

[Jaylee]

The only foods I eat are animal proteins and animal fats. "No carbs whatsoever. If you don't eat anything, you'll feed and get your energy from your own muscle and body fat by the "gluconeogenesis pathway", it's a process that transforms non carbohydrates. Carbs are not essential, we do not need to ingest any plants, grains, fruits, seeds, sugar, honey or any other form of carbs.

Not disagreeing from my quarter that carbs are “non essential.” (Apart from a hypo that comes with the territory as a exogenous insulin user.)

Oddly, what you describe as fasting. That is just how a T1 body can react without insulin, it turns on its own tissue primarily to save the brain.. (Before waving the “white flag.”)
Pretty much regardless of whatever was eaten or not..
BGs will also climb to dangerous levels, eventually resulting in DKA.

 

[Prof Bart Kay]

It's a simple question about the Randle Cycle. Do you believe it or not? What is your take on it?

The question is confusing, perhaps... The Randle Cycle exists, is confirmed to exist, and works in a set manner precisely in order to protect your cells from glycation damage. Its not something you can 'believe' in or not with any more actual effect on the reality of it than whether or not you believe in the moon... The moon is there, it is a fact, and it it behaves predictably. Hope this helps.

 

[Oldvatr]

Sorry but your sources are somewhat suspect. Bart Kay is only a lecturer in NZ and seems to have no formal qualifications. Another is an ND which is a Naturopathic Doctor

Naturopathic Medicine: What You Need to Know

Naturopathy uses natural treatments to help the body heal itself. WebMD explains everything you need to know about this nontraditional medical system.

www.webmd.com

None of them seem to be main stream researcherss or backed up by recognoised research. The Randle Cycle is a hypothesis that has not yet been accepted by mainstream medicicne or physiologists, It is an adjunct to the Krebs Cycle - the originl Krebs cycle was limited in its scope to cover only glucose pathways but has since been updated (now the Citric Cycle) to cover the use of lipids and ketones and this seems to be holding up the metaboliic functions as a suitable explanation.

 

[plantae]

"A very stupid question, but is glycogenesis even possible without insulin? "


glycogenesis, the formation of glycogen, the primary carbohydrate stored in the liver and muscle cells of animals, from glucose. Glycogenesis takes place when blood glucose levels are sufficiently high to allow excess glucose to be stored in liver and muscle cells. Glycogenesis is stimulated by the hormone insulin.

Where is this information from? My understanding is that glycogenesis can and does occur without the presence of insulin (although if you have high BSL and insulin it can happen that way as well). I'm thinking that the Cori Cycle has something to do with it but would like further information

To answer the original question "is glycogenesis even possible without insulin?" I believe the answer is yes, but am happy to be corrected