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To resign or to get sacked?!

@Max68 what a dilemma you have. I really empathised one your post when you were discussing the financial implications of going on to SSP and whether the loss of basically two thirds of your monthly salary was worth your mental health. I real feel for your situation. I am retired after working for 40 years in Education but although I experienced difficult times I never had to face situations like the present one. I hope you will continue to update this thread. Good luck
 
@mo53 Thank you. Just hope the thread may help others in the same situation. It's going to be a worry either way. If I stay home I'll worry about money, If I go to work I'll worry about keeping safe so there isn't an easy option. To be honest without trying to sound too dramatic at least staying home I'll be around to worry about money rather than the alternative! One of the added problems is I live alone. If I were to get ill and deteriorate there is only me here to pick up the phone to get an ambulance, but on the other hand a lack of a wage is only going to affect me as I don't have dependents.

Called ACAS as kindly advised by others on here and the options are -

1. SSP
2. My suggestion to my Line Manager that a possible Temporary Part Time Work From Home Contract could be agreed.
3. Furlough - Although in our situation ACAS felt I might need a shielding letter for that which I don't have.
4. Risk going back to work on full pay.

Decisions, decisions!! To be honest I'd be happy with Option 2 but whether they agree that or not is another matter as they are clearly intent on saving money. With that option at least I'd be working to an extent. SSP and Furlough you aren't allowed to work at all. Other than that maybe I could see how they go whilst being on SSP for a month or two. The whole thing may break down as it's only just started and it may come to pass that they realise that they can't keep students and staff safe.

What frustrates me is that despite me being on a four day contract, rather than five for the last few weeks I've been working exactly the same hours from home as everyone else anyway. With the return of the schools partial opening on Monday those working on a rota are working one day in every four so a maximum of two days a week, 10 till 2, so technically I am working a mere 8 hours less than everyone else by not going in and yet they want me to go on SSP!

My Union also rang back and their view is that the employer is wrong and ignoring GP and Governmental advice and said diabetes might be covered by the Employment Act 2010, not sure if anyone knows that for sure? She is going to do a paragraph or two of the Unions stance for me to forward to my Line Manager and said it might be enough to make them rethink. If not the Union themselves will happily contact my employer. I don't really want to start getting bolshy about it but I guess that's what I joined a Union for!!
 


Max - Having read your post I will make the following observations. In those observations, I am not making judgements, or making any attempt to persuade you to do anything. I am making observation you might consider with a ponder. My post is roughly in the order mentioned in your own post.

1: Your fundamental assumptions
You are making a couple of huge assumptions. Firstly that if you go back to work, you will contract COVID. That is not a given for anyone. Then you further assume that when you contract COVID, it will be fatal.

In a quick search, I couldn't find anything giving a current estimate of infection rates in the UK (diagnosed or not) in the UK, although at the beginning of this month, there was speculation that c50% of the UK had already experienced the virus.

A few days ago, the Office of National Statistics published the following: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...articles/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26

Within that piece, the further published the graph illustrated here:


I have no idea whatsoever what age you are, but if I assume you are under 65, you can see the proportion of deaths under and over 65.

I have no idea how well your hypertension is managed, or what your blood glucose is right now, however, your HbA1c figure quoted yesterday as being 58 a couple of months ago isn't dire. OK. It could be better, but at 58, that doesn't in itself trigger additional concerns for the medical profession.

Furlough
Where a business furloughs and employee, the government picks up the tab fr their employment costs, up to 80% of the individual's salary. They also pick up employer's National Insurance and pension contributions. Should an employer choose to pay more than 80%, they must pick up the balance.

The potential spanner in the works is the public sector wasn't expected to utilise that scheme, but the public sector was not excluded from the potential to furlough.

Diabetes and employment discrimination
Type 2 diabetes is not usually covered by The Equality Act, unless the person concerned has complication impacting their day-to-day life, or they are taking certain medications, like insulin. I don't believe either of those scenario apply to you at this time.

In your shoes, I would try to rethink my assumptions on COVID. I don't have hypertension - aside from White Coat (!), but have had a diagnosis of diabetes. My outlook is that I don't want to contract it. I really don't want to contract it, but I cannot live my life waiting for it's knock on my door. Should that knock come, I will be giving it my best fight to get rid of it, as fast as I can. I will not be assuming the grim reaper is awaiting me.

I'd also speak with the head about furlough, and ask for it. He may feel if he has other people living with pre-existing conditions, perhaps he could consider furloughing a number of people at a time, in rotation.

Thereafter, only you can decide what to do, but in this life a positive attitude can have a great impact on quality of life, and also on quantity of life.

Please do not consider that I am trivialising COVID, or those who have been very unwell, or lost their lives. I'm not.
 
@DCUKMod Thanks for your post no judgements or offence taken!

Absolutely I agree with pretty much everything you say, unfortunately I am a half glass empty type of chap and always have been,. Quite difficult to change after all these years!

I'm 51, as you say HBA1c last time of 58, BP controlled fairly well with meds, amlodipine thankfully that's a calcium channel blocker, 5 feet 6 midget and about 12 stone 4 so overweight but not quite in the obese range, and also for my sins a smoker (yes I know please no lectures!) although I have managed to cut down a bit and vape more now (no lectures please!). On the plus side I had a CT heart scan last year after a bit of Tachycardia and all was well with only a few minor areas of soft plaque so it's probably just my resting heart beat. Very odd though it can be 100 at rest and yet only 110 after 20 minutes on the exercise bike so very strange but not considered a concern so absolutely I agree there are no guarantees how I would fare with Covid and no guarantees I haven't already had it and a lot of people are in the same boat.

However, I spoke to a colleague today and she said it's nothing more than baby sitting at work with no real education taking place and she wasn't too happy because a boy in the class she was in apparently has a mother who is a therapist who works with Covid19 patients so by all accounts some of the staff were understandably concerned. Two pupils have already not returned because it isn't (normal school) and it's not going to be for a while so some wouldn't be surprised if the plug is pulled if the pupil number dwindles down to one or two. Expecting all staff to baby sit four or five children means that most are still working from home most of the time.. They are working one four hour shift every four days. That's 8 hours. Since January I have been on a four day contract so in normal times 8 hours would be my day off, however for the last month I have been working the same online hours than everyone else, but earning 20% less money which until now I haven't had a problem with.

So my thoughts are is it essential? Can they cover the school with staff without health conditions and ask those who have to take over the online tasks for those who are in school? Yes I think they can. Small risk maybe but is it worth me taking that risk at the moment? I get shopping delivered from fantastically helpful friends and neighbours and I couldn't ask them to continue doing that if I was going to work so that's adding to that risk if I go to the supermarket. For sure I know people do but I guess it's making a personal choice on how you manage your risk and who knows what is right and wrong at the moment anyway and I don't think the experts really know. If my GP rang and said right your bloods aren't over bad and your BP isn't too high so you are not at any higher risk than the rest of the population then absolutely I wouldn't have an issue and happily go back but right now no-one can say that.

My main issue is work can and is being done at home so that's all the Government guidelines and my GP's suggestion relate to. The Assistant Head, whose wife is pregnant, is understandably locking himself in his office and not liaising with any students or staff when he goes in so if they are suggesting all are treated the same then why should I stand in a class with other staff and students? Please don't think I am trying to be picky I'm just trying to keep myself as safe and at as low risk as I can from contracting this thing at least until we know a bit more about it and how it affects certain groups.

I will try and discuss with my Line Manager other options. Furloughing is something I need to talk to them about as we are a Private School so not sure if/how it would work but I just think it's a shame if they don't come up with anything other with an all or nothing policy. The other problem is that if I do go in and ignore the GP's fit note and suggestion and were to contract Covid then that's down to me as I ignored my GP's instructions which so another thing to think about.

Apologies for the rant!!
 
Hi All,

Just an update. Spoke to my Line Manager again yesterday and they put forward a compromise of which I accepted.

Basically I was on a four day contract before all this started at my request due to my mother recently entering care and therefore giving me time to take care of all her personal affairs etc. Suited me down to the ground and they were happy with the change.

The Head has talked to HR since my discussions with the Line Manager last week and have amazingly agreed to my suggestion of a part time temporary contract whilst there are options to work from home. This constitutes a three day week contract bringing my wage in line with three days. No more work expected bar what I do now and I can purely work from home. Sure it's less money but still more than it would be on SSP. Those going in to school go in on a 4 day rota on reduced hours which totals 8 hours a week. That's a day's work so basically they do a day's more work than I do so it's fair that I take a reduction of a day's pay. In normal times I would be paying £220 a month on fuel commuting so it probably works out the same in many ways.

The union will probably disagree and say I am entitled to the four day contract I am on, and they may well be right, but I'm looking longer term. Once I resume as per normal, whenever that will be, I will go back to my usual hours and the relationship won't be soured by Union involvement and tribunals and whatever else. I can work where I wouldn't be able to on SSP and I can stay safe as possible for the time being at home, at least until I see how their distancing at the school goes and keep an eye on research and developments. I also by all accounts will not need to continuously have a Fit Note from the GP as I would with SSP.

Not sure what will happen when schools go back fully and the work from home dries up but I will cross that bridge when we come to it. In the meantime I think it's an acceptable compromise. Thank you for all your help etc on this thread.
 
Do you favour those with a compromised immune system due to chronic disease (like people with diabetes) and keep everyone out of work / school, or do you favour those who are in the lower (but not the lowest) socioeconomic groups and allow people to return to work so they don't become financially strained, mentally ill and possibly homeless?

And what of those who are at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder and also suffering from chronic disease...?

Those with neither problem will be favoured by nature in the end with the survival of the fittest.
 


Not sure what your question is. I am on my own and have no dependants so have to decide what is right for me. At our school 4 maybe 5 children are back and this option was put forward to all of the parents so currently as it stands all others are working remotely, of which I play my part. With 4 or 5 children in, was it "necessary" that I attended school? No, I don't believe it is, especially with those that volunteered to go back. Those with underlying conditions going back, that's up to them and their GP to assess their risk. Who knows who will be proved correct in 6 months time, that's something we cannot ascertain right now. When schools return in earnest I will have to make another decision, just like everyone else. The way this virus works seems different in the way it affects different people but you have no idea on how it will affect you until it hits. The same for decisions. Everyone has their own set of problems and priorities all important and personal to themselves and each persons decision will be different to anothers.
 

I think you're saying 'lockdown or no lockdown'? In other words should the govt focus be on the economy or the 'sick'?
 
Max68 said:
Great phrase isn't it, long gone in language sadly!!
Click to expand...

Good grief no, not with us oldies anyway. I see you're seventeen years younger than me. I love a good curse and Bolshy git expletive.

Sadly BoJo's recent talk to the nation was so vague as to be useless. We all understand the need for things to get going, it's what we all want but I, personaly do not want to see people be ill or worse just so he get Brexit done.


Alert: the state of being watchful for possible danger. I've done that and it's more than possible, there is imminent danger everywhere, so I'll be staying in.

Control: determine the behaviour or supervise the running of. If any of us could control the virus we wouldn't be where we are today. I thought this bloke spoke English, has he got a dictionary? I bet this was one of Dominic's brainwaves. Very disappointing but good camouflage to cover up Brexit news. I predict that Covid19 will be blamed for all the financial ills that this country has to look forward to.

Nearly forgot, the green border, what's that all about, a clear message, clearer than the words, ALL CLEAR. Led by Donkeys - yep, big time.

If you have to work or considering the 'go back if you can't work from home' have a look at https://www.hse.gov.uk/news/. If there is any danger to yourself, you'd like to think that HSE would want to know about it.
 
“Any man can make mistakes, but only a fool persists in his error”

Marcus Tullius Cicero someone I believe our esteemed leader likes to quote.
 
Boris and the spin doctors have it completely covered. This latest edict puts the responsibility clearly down to individual choices. If this new approach works Boris will claim that the approach was the correct one. If it does not work the blame will lie with the public for not following the advice given. Cunning and devious in the extreme.
 


I agree and I voted for him!!! Thought he would make a good leader but he is proving the be the bumbling idiot people perceive him to be! I mean you can apparently visit one parent, but you can go to work with people not of your household and sit next to total strangers on the way to and from!

As for schools - Incubation period for this virus is anything between 2 and 14 days, sometimes longer, so asymptomatic people all back at work. Then once you have the virus symptoms usually around a few weeks and for those who sadly get seriously ill this more often than not happens in the second week. Then for those unfortunate people hospital stays on anything from a few days to weeks when either you "recover" I use the word loosely in many cases, or you sadly die. So the lag effect is a bare minimum 28 days that you have any inkling of the impact these "relaxation rules" will have on infection rates and deaths and yet the Government hopes schools will be back in some form by start of June?! Madness.

Then he says today we may not ever have a vaccine! Why not just destroy the hope, no matter how slim it is for millions of people. Must confess I'm starting to lose hope and have a horrible feeling that the virus is here to stay and we may all have to play the lottery of survival of the luckiest!
 
Seems like we have been upgraded. I'm not seeing much light at the end of the tunnel here, but I've always been the glass half empty type!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ocial-distancing#clinically-vulnerable-people

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...navirus/whos-at-higher-risk-from-coronavirus/

Had to get the Union involved with the work situation as well. Thought we had sorted it with new Terms and Conditions but they are playing silly buggers by not including anything to suggest I will return to my old contract once things "are safer" (if they ever will be!) So the Union has gone with the fact I shouldn't be penalised for my condition and should be on my original four day contract. Bit of a risk but if they won't play ball then I'll get the experts to sort it out. If I end up losing the job hey ho, there's more important things in life!
 
Max68 said:
Seems like we have been upgraded.
Click to expand...
How so? The list looks the same for diabetes (middle group). The only changes I can see are bmi of over 40 has been added to the vulnerable (middle) group.

Not overly sure what the purpose of this middle group is though other than it may raise the level of caution of some people within it. It doesn’t force employers to consider your risks any more than jo public (although hopefully some do), nor allow you access to supermarket online delivery slots or to receive a carb laden box of dubious goodies to enable you to take the social distancing as seriously as advised (unlike the extremely vulnerable shielded people - who justifiably need this). Nor make any other practical difference to most within it. It does allow us to worry more though.
 
HSSS said:
carb laden box of dubious goodies
Click to expand...

In mine there have been let me see now potatoes,rice,pasta digestive biscuits,oranges,apples,porridge oats,fray bentos cheese and onion pies,tins of tomato soup,tinned chopped tomatoes and a tin of meatballs in tomato soup oh yes and some tinned tuna.
 
Max 68 please look at this link for specifically how the government advise employers in education to behave towards those in the high risk clinically group
//www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-implementing-protective-measures-in-education-and-childcare-settings/coronavirus-covid-19-implementing-protective-measures-in-education-and-childcare-settings

I think it bolsters your position considerably and your union will be very interested.

Part of the detail published today on the roadmap back for schools.
 
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