Type 1's and DVLA changes

[noblehead]

The following article says that type 1's who have recurrent hypoglycemia or impaired awareness will no longer have their licenses renewed:

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/newsarticle ... ences-if-t

Nigel

 

[catherinecherub]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Doesn't look so good for car drivers but the news for bus and lorry drivers is a step in the right direction.

 

[noblehead]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Doesn't look so good for car drivers but the news for bus and lorry drivers is a step in the right direction.

Agreed Catherine, although I still have some concerns about insulin dependent diabetics driving public service vehicles.

Nigel

 

[Pneu]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

What I want to know is how do they propose to enforce the rules? What's to stop an individual not declaring they had a hypo where they required someone else's aid?

Would not a better way to manage this be to decline licence based on HbA1c's? I know they are not a perfect measurement but they are used to determine an awful lot of things for us diabetics such as insurance costs etc...

 

[noblehead]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

What I want to know is how do they propose to enforce the rules? What's to stop an individual not declaring they had a hypo where they required someone else's aid?

Would not a better way to manage this be to decline licence based on HbA1c's? I know they are not a perfect measurement but they are used to determine an awful lot of things for us diabetics such as insurance costs etc...

Difficult to know and unless patients are open and honest then it's difficult to enforce, as for the Hba1c test, well the medical profession are of the opinion that those who have low a1c's are at a greater risk of hypo's anyway, if they use this as a basis for refusal then this could be seen very controversial.

Nigel

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

If a driver has a severe hypo whilst at the wheel and the emergency services are called they will then advise the DVLA I believe that already happens, it is also a legal requirement that diabetics that have suffered a serious hypo whilst driving must inform the DVLA, if for argument sake a diabetic fails to do this and then goes on to kill someone in a similar incident they would be in very serious trouble. Manslaughter at the very least and probably death through dangerous driving.

What amazes me is that the DVLA are relaxing the laws relating to drivers of 10 ton lorries and public service vehicles and at the same time tightening those governing private cars, the world has gone mad.

 

[Dragonflye]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Wow not sure of what I make of this news :? i have a liscence but dont drive (dont like it) but due to my hubby getting a new job it may be required now... I DO have nocturnal hypos which do require assistance, but i cant remember the last hypo i had during the day that did require assistance, will that mean i cant get my license renewed? :cry: if i drive while sleeping then i do need my license taking away :lol:

 

[sugar2]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

What I want to know is how do they propose to enforce the rules? What's to stop an individual not declaring they had a hypo where they required someone else's aid?

Would not a better way to manage this be to decline licence based on HbA1c's? I know they are not a perfect measurement but they are used to determine an awful lot of things for us diabetics such as insurance costs etc...

No, this would be a worse way! just becasue someone has a low HcA1C does not mean they are prone to hypos.

I am concerned about this too. I haven't needed assistance with a hypo for years now, except once at night. Like Dragonfly, I think that this should be clarified as while you are awake. This is not so much a hypo awareness issue, more that I am a deep sleeper!

 

[Pneu]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

I guess that's my argument is how do you assess an individuals control?! I don't think that you can without relying on the individual in question being totally honest... however how many individuals who drive regularly are going to want to give up that freedom? So how then do you legislate effectively so as not to unfairly persecute those who do have good control? I am not saying that people with 'good' HbA1c's do not have control issues, I am generalising that in general those of us with good control have less hypo's than those who have poor control. And that is all that legislation can do is generalise.

 

[catherinecherub]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

This PDF that you can download might clarify things.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla//medical/aag_updates.aspx

 

[Pneu]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

What I want to know is how do they propose to enforce the rules? What's to stop an individual not declaring they had a hypo where they required someone else's aid?

Would not a better way to manage this be to decline licence based on HbA1c's? I know they are not a perfect measurement but they are used to determine an awful lot of things for us diabetics such as insurance costs etc...

Difficult to know and unless patients are open and honest then it's difficult to enforce, as for the Hba1c test, well the medical profession are of the opinion that those who have low a1c's are at a greater risk of hypo's anyway, if they use this as a basis for refusal then this could be seen very controversial.

Nigel

Which I will never understand! unless someone can point to the contrary and show me the magic way of achieving a 5-6% HbA1c as a type one without testing 6 - 10 times a day and eating correctly and managing their diabetes well then the medical profession as far as I am concerned have it wrong!

I would argue that if an individual understand their body, their medication and their diabetes well enough to achieve this then they are at much less risk of a server hypo than someone who doesn't.

For the most part hypo's don't just happen they are caused by mis-management or a lack of understanding.

 

[Pneu]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Just reading the guidelines thank you Catherine and reference public transport and 10 ton the following applies:

* They must arrange to be examined every 12 months by a hospital consultant, who specialises in diabetes. At the examination the consultant will require sight of their blood glucose records for the last 3 months.

I guess that is how they are ensuring that you are well managed.

 

[angieG]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Doesn't look so good for car drivers but the news for bus and lorry drivers is a step in the right direction.

Agreed Catherine, although I still have some concerns about insulin dependent diabetics driving public service vehicles.

Nigel

I am a type 2 coach driver diagnosed last November. I'm self employed and if I happened to end up on insulin at some point I therefore cannot work full stop.
Do you really think that any of us group 2 drivers are going to go out of our way to put our passengers or other road users at risk?
If a coach has an accident it makes headline news regardless who's to blame as if we are always at fault. So now we are going to mis-manage our control too I guess. DVLA are strict with us and if there is any doubt they will say no I can assure you.
Sorry for the rant but this is my livelihood.
Angie

 

[noblehead]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

What I want to know is how do they propose to enforce the rules? What's to stop an individual not declaring they had a hypo where they required someone else's aid?

Would not a better way to manage this be to decline licence based on HbA1c's? I know they are not a perfect measurement but they are used to determine an awful lot of things for us diabetics such as insurance costs etc...

Difficult to know and unless patients are open and honest then it's difficult to enforce, as for the Hba1c test, well the medical profession are of the opinion that those who have low a1c's are at a greater risk of hypo's anyway, if they use this as a basis for refusal then this could be seen very controversial.

Nigel

Which I will never understand! unless someone can point to the contrary and show me the magic way of achieving a 5-6% HbA1c as a type one without testing 6 - 10 times a day and eating correctly and managing their diabetes well then the medical profession as far as I am concerned have it wrong!

I would argue that if an individual understand their body, their medication and their diabetes well enough to achieve this then they are at much less risk of a server hypo than someone who doesn't.

For the most part hypo's don't just happen they are caused by mis-management or a lack of understanding.

No arguments there Pneu, however the medical profession do see those with low Hba1c's as a higher risk of hypoglycemia, also lets not forget the tighter the control the more likely you are to loose your hypo awareness or at least impair them. We have had type 1's on the forum with extremely tight a1c's who have admitted that they lost their hypo awareness long ago and have to monitor their diabetes more closely than those who haven't.

Nigel

 

[noblehead]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Doesn't look so good for car drivers but the news for bus and lorry drivers is a step in the right direction.

Agreed Catherine, although I still have some concerns about insulin dependent diabetics driving public service vehicles.

Nigel

I am a type 2 coach driver diagnosed last November. I'm self employed and if I happened to end up on insulin at some point I therefore cannot work full stop.
Do you really think that any of us group 2 drivers are going to go out of our way to put our passengers or other road users at risk?
If a coach has an accident it makes headline news regardless who's to blame as if we are always at fault. So now we are going to mis-manage our control too I guess. DVLA are strict with us and if there is any doubt they will say no I can assure you.
Sorry for the rant but this is my livelihood.
Angie

Angie, the discussion is about type 1 diabetics on insulin. I for one would never want to drive a bus or coach or any other public service vehicle for that matter as someone who uses multiple daily injections, nor would I feel safe travelling on such vehicles knowing that a type 1 person is at the controls, having had diabetes now for 30 years I know to well the dangers of both hypo and hyperglycemia.

Nigel

 

[angieG]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Nigel,
I agree with the theory but I would like to have the choice when I wish to stop doing my job....not be compelled to when it is ok for others to carry on doing their jobs that could pose similar risks.
What about type 1's driving cars, such as parcel delivery or sales people on the road all the time, they could cause an accident involing a coach or lorry....is there really much difference?

Some folks may have already travelled on such vehicles anyways if you have travelled in Europe. Group 2 drivers in Europe are allowed to keep their licences when going onto insulin and they are allowed to come over here and drive on our roads....but UK group 2 folk are not....is that fair?

If I had to go onto insulin and felt I did not have sufficient control to be able to do my job safely I would most certainly quit....but I would like it to be my choice. I went to the doctors when I was diagnosed and my levels were at 25 (I wasn't safe to drive then the way I felt)....I could have been put straight on insulin there and then had it not been for the considerate practice nurse who was prepapered to take a chance on tablets so I could keep my job....her bet paid off for now, but I could have been out of work overnight...that is scary!!

I also know a type 2 person who doesn't have a tester, shows no sign of getting one and carries on eating loads of carbs. They freely admit when they drive anywhere they have to have the window open to stay awake as they feel like falling asleep all the time.....is this safe? Would you ride with them?

I don't want to argue with anyone or upset anyone, but I am just trying to show this from our perspective. We don't like the idea of effectively being sacked overnight for being diagnosed with diabetes!!
regards
Angie

 

[noblehead]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Nigel,
I agree with the theory but I would like to have the choice when I wish to stop doing my job....not be compelled to when it is ok for others to carry on doing their jobs that could pose similar risks.
What about type 1's driving cars, such as parcel delivery or sales people on the road all the time, they could cause an accident involing a coach or lorry....is there really much difference?

There are many possibilities should if you think for long enough Angie, as I say I would not feel safe driving a PSV as a type 1 nor would I feel safe being driven by one, the risks are to great and as we have discussed there is no way of knowing if they truly had their hypo awareness intact.

Some folks may have already travelled on such vehicles anyways if you have travelled in Europe. Group 2 drivers in Europe are allowed to keep their licences when going onto insulin and they are allowed to come over here and drive on our roads....but UK group 2 folk are not....is that fair?

No certainly not fair and there should be a blanket ban.

If I had to go onto insulin and felt I did not have sufficient control to be able to do my job safely I would most certainly quit....but I would like it to be my choice. I went to the doctors when I was diagnosed and my levels were at 25 (I wasn't safe to drive then the way I felt)....I could have been put straight on insulin there and then had it not been for the considerate practice nurse who was prepapered to take a chance on tablets so I could keep my job....her bet paid off for now, but I could have been out of work overnight...that is scary!!

You may make the sensible decision not to drive if you 'did not have sufficient control to do my job safely'..........but could you trust others to do likewise?

I also know a type 2 person who doesn't have a tester, shows no sign of getting one and carries on eating loads of carbs. They freely admit when they drive anywhere they have to have the window open to stay awake as they feel like falling asleep all the time.....is this safe? Would you ride with them?

Certainly wouldn't ride with this character as they are a danger on the roads!

I don't want to argue with anyone or upset anyone, but I am just trying to show this from our perspective. We don't like the idea of effectively being sacked overnight for being diagnosed with diabetes!!

No I don't like arguments and try hard never to upset anyone, that is why we often debate issues on the forum as we are now, everyone is entitled to voice an opinion as long as it's done in the appropriate manner.

Nigel

 

[leyland]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Angie - I am with you and everything you say 100%. I'm a fit, healthy individual in my early 30s. I was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes five years ago. At the time I was a bus driver. I lost my job, my livelihood and indeed my happiness. At the same time, I had to watch my colleagues continue to drive buses, many of whom were on tablets for heart disease, high blood pressure and even suffering with Parkinsons. Many were overweight, smoked and drinked.

These driving licence changes can't come soon enough. In five years I've been fortunate enough never to have had a severe hypo, or indeed medical intervention for anything diabetes related. I have no health complications, etc. There is no reason why I, like many others, should not regain our licences. The Government has undertaken much research on the subject and in light of this, has proposed to make changes. That's what matters.

If I thought for one moment I would pose a danger to the public, I would concede defeat and surrender my licence. I have a conscience. At the same time, I have a right to be treated as an individual. I am lucky in that I have full hypo awarenss and have no complications. Sadly its not the same for everyone. Regardless, I am overjoyed that I will be able to return to the buses sometime soon. Its a job I loved and therefore am not about to put at risk through lying about any changes in my condition, etc, etc.

All those out there who wouldn't want to board a bus with a Type 1 diabetic behind the wheel..... well, you'll never know, will you. There are indeed MANY drivers out there who are on insulin and allowed to drive large vehicles by the grace of Grandfather rights. I know six. How many has anybody ever heard of that have been involved in serious accidents? I've done research and drawn a blank. This has also helped in the debate and got us to where we are today.

Believe me, there are individuals in a far more threatening state of health than someone with diabetes. Whatever anybody thinks, these changes are happening and I for one will be first in the DVLA queue to regain the job I love and chose as my career.

 

[mehdave]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

Thankfully diabetic bus drivers don't have to hang a card round there neck telling people they have diabetes. I would feel perfectly safe with my bus driver having diabetes.

 

[Margi]

Re: Tpe 1's and DVLA changes

I can't get the link to work to the news article, but I have found this on the Diabetes UK site:

" Drivers experiencing recurrent severe hypoglycaemia shall not be issued a licence – ‘severe recurrent hypoglycaemia’ is now defined as ‘a second severe hypoglycaemia during a period of 12 months’
Any Severe Hypoglycaemic event, even when not driving, must be reported and will now lead to driver reassessment.
Drivers with impaired awareness of hypoglycaemia will not be issued licences, nor be able to renew. Impaired awareness is now defined as a total absence of warning symptoms.
Group 1 Drivers with tablet treated diabetes will not be required to inform the DVLA unless they develop visual complications or hypoglycaemia. This is on the basis that they are under regular medical review – based on NHS prescribing reviews taking place every 12 months.
Drivers treated by insulin will now be able to apply for Group 2 licences based on the 5 point criteria and an annual review undertaken by an expert diabetologist.

Diabetes UK has responded on behalf of our members and all people affected by the proposed changes. Current UK Driving Regulations and application procedure should be adhered to until the DVLA enact these changes."

My question is what is defined as 'a severe hypoglycaemic event'?

As far as I can see, the only difference from the current rules is that the severe hypo is counted if it happened when not driving. I don't think it was before, which was a bit scary. One severe hypo when driving indicates a lack of control or care on the part of the driver. It doesn't say there is a requirement to test at times relevant to driving, which I think is a condition nowadays too. That is not good, you should always test to drive if there is the slightest chance that you could be a bit low. And really, every time you drive. My living depends on being able to drive, so it is very relevant to me. I think the HGV allowance is wonderful - I take it Group 2 licences are for HGV and PSVs. A European guidance, that this country took as an absolute ruling, took all licences away from insulin dependent HGV and PSV drivers some years ago. Later it was extended to anything over 3 1/2 tonnes, so I lost my accident and point free licence to drive a 7 1/2 tonne vehicle, after around 20 years of holding it. Diabetes UK has been campaigning ever since to reverse this and finally the Powers that Be have realised that these things should be decided on an individual basis, which is what Europe recommended in the first place.

I have had my medical, got the agreement of my Diabetes consultant and psychiatrist and am sorting out the records for the last three months tests so I can get my 7 1/2 tonne licence back. It is stupid that I can get in a Ferrari and drive it at goodness knows what speed down a motorway, but I can't drive a horsebox. Horseboxes generally don't have accidents.

I think this is a good step forward except for losing the 'test before driving' bit. Statistically diabetes sufferers do NOT have more accidents than healthy motorists, so blanket discrimination is ridiculous. In fact they are generally safer because we take so much care not to go hypo when driving as it is SO important.

I haven't dug for the official government document on the subject, but when you read a news article about anything, you need to look at the original because the press nearly always take the 'sensational' out of context just to shock and scare people. You will find the detail on the government sites and it will be accurate. I cannot judge what the news article you have linked to says, though, because I can't get on their site for now.

PS: I wrote this after reading only page 1 of the thread. I missed that there was a page 2!