Type 2 Diabetes and Dental implants

ShugaShuga

Member
Messages
24
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi, has anybody had any experience of this topic? I've had some failed root canals extracted which have left me with no gnashers on one side of my face. This isn't a cultural problem for me, I'm from the generation of false teeth and NHS dentures. However my dentist has suggested 2 implants spanned by bridges on top and bottom. It seems a good idea to get some eatin' teeth on one side so that if the teeth on the other side go, I won't have to spend my life eating porridge. However, there seems to be conflicting evidence about the suitability of diabetics for implants. What can go wrong? Will your jaw rot away?
And what does "Stabilised Diabetes" mean?

HbA1c 38 mmol/mol on 22/04/2015 (Diabetes diagnosed using glucose test)
Morning readings (pre-prandial) usually 4.8 - 6. Using Nexus GlucoRX. 'Don't know what the units are, just that 4 - 7 is normal for type 2.
 

ButtterflyLady

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,291
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Acceptance of health treatment claims that are not adequately supported by evidence. I dislike it when people sell ineffective and even harmful alternative health products to exploit the desperation of people with chronic illness.
Hi and welcome to the forum.

Your HbA1c and home results sound excellent. If you can test before a meal and 2 hours after, that will give you an additional perspective on how well your levels are controlled too.

To the best of my knowledge I think stabilised diabetes might mean blood sugars in the normal range, which you appear to have.

I've had root canals which (fingers crossed) are still holding up ok. Your dentist will have considered suitability in light of your diabetes (assuming they know about it, which they should). I assume that the dentist will need to cut the gum to install the implants, which are then fixed into bone? This increases the risk of infection (for anyone) so it is best to have well controlled diabetes as infections are hard on us. There may be ongoing issues too but I have not looked into this - you have probably read more than me!

I think if there is an infection around the base of the implant then it could potentially cause bone loss and other issues. But the risk of this would be managed by the dentist.

I think if you want a clear answer on this it's best to ask your dentist. If you find references saying implants are a bad idea, discuss these with your dentist. You can always get a second opinion too if you like. It's best to be sure the benefits outweigh the risks before doing anything like this.

Another option might be a partial denture that is connected to nearby teeth with wire. This would avoid breaking the skin. However if you have gum disease (which is common among diabetics) then it might not be possible.

I just remembered we have a dentist among us - she might have some information to share as well.
 
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photognut

Well-Known Member
Messages
239
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Root canals gone toxic :mad:. The bacteria found in your gum creates havoc with general health and well being, the same bacteria has been found in the heart too. The better you are at controlling your diabetes, keeping the glucose levels in the normal / safe zone (stabilised) you are more likely to heal and recover at a normal pace, reducing your risk of infection.

I had two back molars extracted because of toxic root canals, replacing them with implants along with a precautionary antibiotic. Let me first describe the initial pain of having an implant, its off the chart and you will need strong pain killers to knock yourself out for a couple of days. I've had my 2 implants for 4 years now, without any issues.

Your oral hygiene needs to be extreme, obsessively so, if it isn't, you have just wasted a few thousand £ and given yourself more grief along with infection, really bad news for diabetes and heart health. If you do decide to get it done, when healed, invest in a good water jet to pressure clean up in and around the implant area on a daily basis. I also squirt 3% food grade hydrogen peroxide once a week in and around the area to kill any anaerobic bacteria (don't swallow), thoroughly rinsing around with water afterwards.
 
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ButtterflyLady

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,291
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Acceptance of health treatment claims that are not adequately supported by evidence. I dislike it when people sell ineffective and even harmful alternative health products to exploit the desperation of people with chronic illness.
Root canals gone toxic :mad:. The bacteria found in your gum creates havoc with general health and well being, the same bacteria has been found in the heart too. The better you are at controlling your diabetes, keeping the glucose levels in the normal / safe zone (stabilised) you are more likely to heal and recover at a normal pace, reducing your risk of infection.

I had two back molars extracted because of toxic root canals, replacing them with implants along with a precautionary antibiotic. Let me first describe the initial pain of having an implant, its off the chart and you will need strong pain killers to knock yourself out for a couple of days. I've had my 2 implants for 4 years now, without any issues.

Your oral hygiene needs to be extreme, obsessively so, if it isn't, you have just wasted a few thousand £ and given yourself more grief along with infection, really bad news for diabetes and heart health. If you do decide to get it done, when healed, invest in a good water jet to pressure clean up in and around the implant area on a daily basis. I also squirt 3% food grade hydrogen peroxide once a week in and around the area to kill any anaerobic bacteria (don't swallow), thoroughly rinsing around with water afterwards.
I'm interested in a water jet for general teeth cleaning, as I have gum disease :( as my dentists never warned me about this being linked to diabetes. Would a water jet do a better job of cleaning my teeth, to stop progression of gum disease as much as possible?
 
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Evelynross

Well-Known Member
Messages
119
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
I have 3 implants, got them about 8 years ago. Your jawbone is drilled and that's what makes them strong. They test you to make sure your bone is strong enough. Sometimes the implant fails( this happened to a few people without diabetes) . I've never had bother with mine, best thing I've ever done, I got two at the top one at the bottom. My gums weren't good but it's the bone they go by. Find out if you've strong enough bone and go for it!
 
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photognut

Well-Known Member
Messages
239
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I'm interested in a water jet for general teeth cleaning, as I have gum disease :( as my dentists never warned me about this being linked to diabetes. Would a water jet do a better job of cleaning my teeth, to stop progression of gum disease as much as possible?

I learned about oral hygiene in Reverse Heart Disease Now by Cardiologists Sinatra & Roberts. To quote "We believe, in fact, that good oral hygiene is more important than lowering cholesterol. If you clean up the bacteria in your mouth, signs of CVD disease, such as CRP level, go down. This means there's less inflammation in your system from top to bottom" the book also includes research from Paul H Keyes that natural products like salt, baking soda, hydrogen peroxide and apple cider vinegar fight bacteria. One recommended way is to dip toothbrush in hydrogen peroxide and then in baking soda to get rid of gum disease.

imho, the water jet (I use Waterpik WP-120) it is a tool to support, not replace, my toothbrush a diamond clean sonic toothbrush, also dental floss along with 3 monthly appointments with the hygienist. I use a natural toothpaste without fluoride and nasty chemicals.

My dentist, hygienist and I have interesting conversations on overall health, what is connected to what - its a shame that each profession has an inability to interlink attacking the whole instead of addressing part of. I asked my Cardiologist why the next office down isn't a resident dentist incorporated as part of the conveyor belt fix you up process? he just looked at me and smiled sweetly.................. If you want to survive your disease, you have to know as much, probably more. from reading research papers than they do.
 
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mrspuddleduck

Guest
A bit of an aside, but something I've just gone through and learnt. I couldn't have implants so had to have a partial denture. I found an independent dental technician through local recommendation who made me an amazing partial denture for about £400 less that the dentist quoted. Turns out he makes them for most of the local dentists so the £400 is mainly a 'third party' fee. (And my dentist was more than happy I used him!) Sue x
 
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ButtterflyLady

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,291
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Acceptance of health treatment claims that are not adequately supported by evidence. I dislike it when people sell ineffective and even harmful alternative health products to exploit the desperation of people with chronic illness.
I remembered that @viv k is a dentist... do you have any thoughts to add?
 

learning2me

Well-Known Member
Messages
145
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
I needed implants as i had to have all my teeth removed in order to have the treatment I needed for my Brain Tumour.
The NHS made a terrible mess of my jaw and I had 6 dry sockets.
My dentures were never comfortable and eventually I got a referral to our local Dental Hospital.

It was a long process but eventually they drilled my bottom jaw and inserted two stainless steel pegs to hold my bottom denture. What a difference!
As has been said, oral hygiene has to be excellent. I use a lot of mouthwash and clean my inplants with a special brush 3 x daily as well as cleaning my dentures.

So far, no problems.
 

ShugaShuga

Member
Messages
24
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi.

Thanks for your input. Sorry about the delay, but I realised that this topic had opened up a whole can of worms for me and I was trying to check things out. I had no idea that diabetes could have an impact upon dental health, so I wasn’t doing anything special. Neither did I appreciate the role that blood sugar could play within the healing process. I knew about getting my feet checked regularly, having my annual eye and HbA1C checks, beyond that I didn’t really know much. I suspect that the same is true of many Type 2’s. The NHS concentrates on Type 1’s, after all, a diabetic coma is a serious event, and Type 2’s are pretty much left to fend for themselves.

Our local NHS diabetic services are pretty poor. e.g. I was referred to a group meeting where we were supposed to be being told about Diabetes and You. There were 2 meetings, during the first of which we were to be shown a diabetes awareness video, by an “expert” who would answer any questions we had. When we turned up we were told that the video couldn’t be shown because the laptop had broken down. Because the video session couldn’t go ahead, the “expert” hadn’t turned up. The meeting was run by diabetic dieticians who weren’t able to answer many of the more searching questions. When the next meeting came around, I thought that the laptop would have been repaired and we would have the video. No. The laptop was still broken and there was no expert. I also had 2 half hour, one to one sessions with diabetic dieticians, each time a different person. Each time they trotted out a picture of a plate with “half vegetable, quarter protein, quarter carbohydrate” as the ideal meal. No mention of the other 2 daily meals. The rest of the time they spent filling in a Health Lifestyle questionnaire - both of them! Are they on commission or something? The only other things that I picked up were, “no smoothies and no mashed potato”.

I still haven’t been able to find out much about problems associated with diabetes and implants. There are some learned documents using Big Words Wot I Don’t Know, talking about failure rates (whatever a “failure” is) not being much higher for “controlled diabetes”, but I’d like to know more.

As far as my dentist goes, he did know about my diabetes, but I’m not sure that he knew that he knew. By that, I mean that I had declared diabetes on my registration form, but whether he checked before suggesting implants, I don’t know. When I mentioned diabetes in connection with problems I had experienced with antibiotics (Amoxicillin and Metronidazole), he “pulled up short”. I asked what would happen if I had implants and my “maintain by diet” diabetes, degraded to medication and possibly insulin maintenance. He said something about somebody he knew who had turned their life around by a change in lifestyle. Can Type 2 really be “cured” by becoming a lean, mean machine?

The decision is left to me and I still feel that I don’t have sufficient information to make it an informed one. When it goes wrong what are the consequences and what can be done about them?

Just done a "before and after" with my breakfast (2 egg omelette with diced onion and red pepper) - 5.8 mmol/L before. 5.8 mmol/L 2 hours later. So I guess that's OK. The baseline (5.8) might be up a bit because i'm still on pain killers (Paracetamol/Ibuprofen) after the extractions. I read a comment on the Ibuprofen box about "see your pharmacist/doctor before taking" if you're diabetic. Is this Type 1 or Type 2 or both? I guessed that it was to do with the sugar in the casing, so haven't seen anyone. The Ibuprofen was taken just after breakfast, so is included in the result.
 

ButtterflyLady

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,291
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Acceptance of health treatment claims that are not adequately supported by evidence. I dislike it when people sell ineffective and even harmful alternative health products to exploit the desperation of people with chronic illness.
I would suggest seeing another dentist for a second opinion. A dentist, like a doctor, is supposed to answer your questions and provide enough info to enable you to give informed consent. His lack of info given is pretty appalling really. I would expect him to know what this procedure is like for people with diabetes.

Maybe he hasn't done many of these procedures. There might be a dentist who specialises in implants, and who therefore will have performed the procedure on a larger number of people, including some diabetics.
 
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mrspuddleduck

Guest
@ShugaShuga . When I had to have most if my lower teeth removed, my dentist sent me to the hospital for the extraction (I had other complications as well as diabetes). Before the extractions my dentist explained to me that because of my diabetes, the healing process could be longer than usual and that although she outlined my options she made it very clear that we couldn't make a final decision until I was completely healed. She suggested that I had NHS dentures for the first year to allow complete healing of the gums and to ensure that no further problems developed before I spent shed loads of money on my 'final' teeth. I would consider her a good dentist! As it happens it took three months before I healed properly due to infection, and I didn't get on with the NHS dentures as they were too hard in my Diabetic gums. Ended up with the private dentures after six months and they are fantastic!!
I suppose I'm saying I agree with @CatLadyNZ , sounds like you might need a second opinion. Good luck hun, I know exactly what your going through. Sue xxxxx
 
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ShugaShuga

Member
Messages
24
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Root canals gone toxic :mad:. The bacteria found in your gum creates havoc with general health and well being, the same bacteria has been found in the heart too. The better you are at controlling your diabetes, keeping the glucose levels in the normal / safe zone (stabilised) you are more likely to heal and recover at a normal pace, reducing your risk of infection. I had two back molars extracted because of toxic root canals, replacing them with implants along with a precautionary antibiotic. Let me first describe the initial pain of having an implant, its off the chart and you will need strong pain killers to knock yourself out for a couple of days. I've had my 2 implants for 4 years now, without any issues. Your oral hygiene needs to be extreme, obsessively so, if it isn't, you have just wasted a few thousand £ and given yourself more grief along with infection, really bad news for diabetes and heart health. If you do decide to get it done, when healed, invest in a good water jet to pressure clean up in and around the implant area on a daily basis. I also squirt 3% food grade hydrogen peroxide once a week in and around the area to kill any anaerobic bacteria (don't swallow), thoroughly rinsing around with water afterwards.
I needed implants as i had to have all my teeth removed in order to have the treatment I needed for my Brain Tumour. The NHS made a terrible mess of my jaw and I had 6 dry sockets. My dentures were never comfortable and eventually I got a referral to our local Dental Hospital. It was a long process but eventually they drilled my bottom jaw and inserted two stainless steel pegs to hold my bottom denture. What a difference! As has been said, oral hygiene has to be excellent. I use a lot of mouthwash and clean my inplants with a special brush 3 x daily as well as cleaning my dentures. So far, no problems.
 

Saramel

Active Member
Messages
33
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
I am supposed to be undergoing the extraction and dental implant route soon. Because of my diabetes the procedure will be done over a longer period of time. I will undergo the extraction and have a temporary denture for 12 weeks. They will then check to see if things have healed nicely and if it has, the implant will be fitted. If there are any problems, they will wait another 6 months and fit the implant then. If the implant fails they will do the procedure again. There is a higher chance of failure if you are diabetic but the chances of success are still much greater!
 
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JenniferW

Well-Known Member
Messages
561
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I had two implants a few years back, when I was in the pre-diabetic range. I've had a history of a lot of crowns with and without posts, etc, and have had years of dentists reassuring me that the problem's not been the quality of my teeth-cleaning. I wasn't asked about blood sugar levels, and because I was pre-diabetic, it never crossed my mind to tell the dentist doing the implants.

One of my implants went into a gap that had been there a few years, and the other went into a gap created by the extraction the dentist did just before doing the implant work. And I've not had any problems.
 

ButtterflyLady

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,291
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Acceptance of health treatment claims that are not adequately supported by evidence. I dislike it when people sell ineffective and even harmful alternative health products to exploit the desperation of people with chronic illness.
I had two implants a few years back, when I was in the pre-diabetic range. I've had a history of a lot of crowns with and without posts, etc, and have had years of dentists reassuring me that the problem's not been the quality of my teeth-cleaning. I wasn't asked about blood sugar levels, and because I was pre-diabetic, it never crossed my mind to tell the dentist doing the implants.

One of my implants went into a gap that had been there a few years, and the other went into a gap created by the extraction the dentist did just before doing the implant work. And I've not had any problems.
I also had a dentist who didn't mention a link between dental problems and high blood sugar, even when I told him I had been diagnosed with T2 diabetes :( Consequently I have gum disease and my teeth are slightly loose, and this can't be reversed. All I can do is try to keep them clean so they don't get worse. All least I am not getting a cavity every 6 months now.
 

ShugaShuga

Member
Messages
24
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Root canals gone toxic :mad:. The bacteria found in your gum creates havoc with general health and well being, the same bacteria has been found in the heart too. The better you are at controlling your diabetes, keeping the glucose levels in the normal / safe zone (stabilised) you are more likely to heal and recover at a normal pace, reducing your risk of infection.

I had two back molars extracted because of toxic root canals, replacing them with implants along with a precautionary antibiotic. Let me first describe the initial pain of having an implant, its off the chart and you will need strong pain killers to knock yourself out for a couple of days. I've had my 2 implants for 4 years now, without any issues.

Your oral hygiene needs to be extreme, obsessively so, if it isn't, you have just wasted a few thousand £ and given yourself more grief along with infection, really bad news for diabetes and heart health. If you do decide to get it done, when healed, invest in a good water jet to pressure clean up in and around the implant area on a daily basis. I also squirt 3% food grade hydrogen peroxide once a week in and around the area to kill any anaerobic bacteria (don't swallow), thoroughly rinsing around with water afterwards.
Hi.
What painkillers did you use and were they "over the counter" or did you get a prescription?
 

ShugaShuga

Member
Messages
24
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi.

Thanks for your input. Sorry about the delay, but I realised that this topic had opened up a whole can of worms for me and I was trying to check things out. I had no idea that diabetes could have an impact upon dental health, so I wasn’t doing anything special. Neither did I appreciate the role that blood sugar could play within the healing process. I knew about getting my feet checked regularly, having my annual eye and HbA1C checks, beyond that I didn’t really know much. I suspect that the same is true of many Type 2’s. The NHS concentrates on Type 1’s, after all, a diabetic coma is a serious event, and Type 2’s are pretty much left to fend for themselves.

Our local NHS diabetic services are pretty poor. e.g. I was referred to a group meeting where we were supposed to be being told about Diabetes and You. There were 2 meetings, during the first of which we were to be shown a diabetes awareness video, by an “expert” who would answer any questions we had. When we turned up we were told that the video couldn’t be shown because the laptop had broken down. Because the video session couldn’t go ahead, the “expert” hadn’t turned up. The meeting was run by diabetic dieticians who weren’t able to answer many of the more searching questions. When the next meeting came around, I thought that the laptop would have been repaired and we would have the video. No. The laptop was still broken and there was no expert. I also had 2 half hour, one to one sessions with diabetic dieticians, each time a different person. Each time they trotted out a picture of a plate with “half vegetable, quarter protein, quarter carbohydrate” as the ideal meal. No mention of the other 2 daily meals. The rest of the time they spent filling in a Health Lifestyle questionnaire - both of them! Are they on commission or something? The only other things that I picked up were, “no smoothies and no mashed potato”.

I still haven’t been able to find out much about problems associated with diabetes and implants. There are some learned documents using Big Words Wot I Don’t Know, talking about failure rates (whatever a “failure” is) not being much higher for “controlled diabetes”, but I’d like to know more.

As far as my dentist goes, he did know about my diabetes, but I’m not sure that he knew that he knew. By that, I mean that I had declared diabetes on my registration form, but whether he checked before suggesting implants, I don’t know. When I mentioned diabetes in connection with problems I had experienced with antibiotics (Amoxicillin and Metronidazole), he “pulled up short”. I asked what would happen if I had implants and my “maintain by diet” diabetes, degraded to medication and possibly insulin maintenance. He said something about somebody he knew who had turned their life around by a change in lifestyle. Can Type 2 really be “cured” by becoming a lean, mean machine?

The decision is left to me and I still feel that I don’t have sufficient information to make it an informed one. When it goes wrong what are the consequences and what can be done about them?

Just done a "before and after" with my breakfast (2 egg omelette with diced onion and red pepper) - 5.8 mmol/L before. 5.8 mmol/L 2 hours later. So I guess that's OK. The baseline (5.8) might be up a bit because i'm still on pain killers (Paracetamol/Ibuprofen) after the extractions. I read a comment on the Ibuprofen box about "see your pharmacist/doctor before taking" if you're diabetic. Is this Type 1 or Type 2 or both? I guessed that it was to do with the sugar in the casing, so haven't seen anyone. The Ibuprofen was taken just after breakfast, so is included in the result.

Oh dear, the Ibuprofen issue is worse than I thought. I went to my GP and asked him. He said that the problem arises if you are diabetic and taking ACE Inhibitors to control blood pressure. In which case case, you shouldn't take Ibuprofen for more than a week otherwise this combination can cause kidney damage!
I am taking Perindopril (an ACE Inhibitor - 'don't know what that actually means) and have been mixing ibuprofen and paracetamol for about three months. I haven't used ibuprofen continuously, nor have I exceed the max dose, but.....
 

ShugaShuga

Member
Messages
24
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I have 3 implants, got them about 8 years ago. Your jawbone is drilled and that's what makes them strong. They test you to make sure your bone is strong enough. Sometimes the implant fails( this happened to a few people without diabetes) . I've never had bother with mine, best thing I've ever done, I got two at the top one at the bottom. My gums weren't good but it's the bone they go by. Find out if you've strong enough bone and go for it!

The thing that bothers me is what happens when the implant fails? How do they "reverse engineer" the process? Can they just unscrew the titanium screw, or will it have been partially enclosed within the jawbone and have to be drilled or cut out? In either case, what do they do about the hole in the jaw where the screw used to be? Grafts from hip or thigh? With how much pain? At what cost? Who pays?
 

ShugaShuga

Member
Messages
24
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I needed implants as i had to have all my teeth removed in order to have the treatment I needed for my Brain Tumour.
The NHS made a terrible mess of my jaw and I had 6 dry sockets.
My dentures were never comfortable and eventually I got a referral to our local Dental Hospital.

It was a long process but eventually they drilled my bottom jaw and inserted two stainless steel pegs to hold my bottom denture. What a difference!
As has been said, oral hygiene has to be excellent. I use a lot of mouthwash and clean my inplants with a special brush 3 x daily as well as cleaning my dentures.

So far, no problems.
Hi.
I'm intrigued about how someone in your position (all teeth removed) managed to eat. How did you do this, until your extractions had healed sufficiently?