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Type II male Testosterone question

K

kevvy

Member
Messages
10
Hi Everyone,

I was wondering if any of you might have some guidance for me. I was diagnosed 9 months ago and have been 'trialed' with various different meds and I am now taking insulin along with metformin slow release. Despite all of this my BG readings remain stubbornly high, well into double figures. I have been reading that testosterone can have a very positive effect on type II's, particularly males. According to what I read approx. 30% of males respond positively to treatment with lower BG readings and also reduced cholesterol, sounds good to me! Could I ask any of you for your take on this situation positive or negative. If it is suggested that to pursue this would be a good thing please could you also suggest how I might be able to get my health care professionals to listen to me. Perhaps what I am reading is a load of old rubbish but I'm curious enough to check. If 30% of male type II's respond well to this treatment why is this not automatically tested for during diagnosis? Perhaps the fact that it isn't tested for is a pointer in itself that testosterone doesn't help! You can see my dilemma.

Anyway, I will be grateful for any replies.

All the best

Kevvy
 
Hi kevvy,

I am bumping your post up to see if other males can help you.

As regards to the high numbers you are experiencing, do you think your diet needs tweaking? Sometimes a few changes here and there can result in a reduction of numbers.
 
Many thanks Catherinecherub,

Looks like I may be on my own with this one! Fingers crossed that is not the case.

Regarding high readings I am starting to go minimum carb but I don't know when I can expect to see some change, it's probably different for everyone. Low carbs is about the only thing I have left to try unless I embark on one of the more esoteric 'cures' I have read about.

cheers

kevvy
 
kevvy said:
Hi Everyone,

I was wondering if any of you might have some guidance for me. I was diagnosed 9 months ago and have been 'trialed' with various different meds and I am now taking insulin along with metformin slow release. Despite all of this my BG readings remain stubbornly high, well into double figures. I have been reading that testosterone can have a very positive effect on type II's, particularly males. According to what I read approx. 30% of males respond positively to treatment with lower BG readings and also reduced cholesterol, sounds good to me! Could I ask any of you for your take on this situation positive or negative. If it is suggested that to pursue this would be a good thing please could you also suggest how I might be able to get my health care professionals to listen to me. Perhaps what I am reading is a load of old rubbish but I'm curious enough to check. If 30% of male type II's respond well to this treatment why is this not automatically tested for during diagnosis? Perhaps the fact that it isn't tested for is a pointer in itself that testosterone doesn't help! You can see my dilemma.

Kevvy
Click to expand...

I personally think you'll struggle to get a HCP to listen to you on the testosterone front unless you have clinically low T levels... which is a shame. How old are you?

I definately think you should try the lowered carb approach, the majority of people get relatively quick improvements in BG this way. :)
 
Hi Mac-Nutrition,

Thanks for your post.

I will be speaking to the diabetes team at my surgery in the hope I can get someone interested, but you are right, past experience has shown them to be rather 'closed minded'. Maybe I can at least persuade them to check my T levels.

As far as the diet is concerned I have been trying to eat minimum carb food and after a week I can see an improvement in my numbers, This morning I actually recorded single figures so I am delighted. After attending the DESMOND course I was once again assured that the balanced diet and care for hi carb and hi fat foods would make a difference. From what I have read a mans daily RDA of carbohydrate is from 300 to 420 grammes as part of a balanced diet. This is an humungous figure and I wonder if maybe our dieticians need to have a re-think, especially if you are sweetly challenged like us diabetics! Anyway, that's just a thought on my part.

I am 56 by the way.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

cheers

kevvy
 
kevvy said:
Hi Mac-Nutrition,

Thanks for your post.

I will be speaking to the diabetes team at my surgery in the hope I can get someone interested, but you are right, past experience has shown them to be rather 'closed minded'. Maybe I can at least persuade them to check my T levels.

As far as the diet is concerned I have been trying to eat minimum carb food and after a week I can see an improvement in my numbers, This morning I actually recorded single figures so I am delighted. After attending the DESMOND course I was once again assured that the balanced diet and care for hi carb and hi fat foods would make a difference. From what I have read a mans daily RDA of carbohydrate is from 300 to 420 grammes as part of a balanced diet. This is an humungous figure and I wonder if maybe our dieticians need to have a re-think, especially if you are sweetly challenged like us diabetics! Anyway, that's just a thought on my part.

I am 56 by the way.
Click to expand...

Hi Kevvy,

You should be able to get them to at least test your T levels! Its not an odd test to be requested... but maybe ask for it to be checked for other reasons... just an idea.

I've not been around this forum very long but I would think that the general view is that the NHS guidelines for dieabetics are absolutely ridiculous! Your asurance that a 'balanced diet' is the cure for all is complete rubbish in my oppinion. I also wouldn't say you need to have too much 'care' for naturally high fat foods. Stay away from processed junk high in fat but on the most part, high fat foods such as red meat, eggs, nuts etc are just fine. :)
 
Hi Mac,

Thanks again for your reply.

I take on board your suggestion that maybe asking for a T test could be slightly disguised - good suggestion.

I am definitely coming round to the idea that I may be able to dump some or all of my medication if I continue with reduced carbs, readings are making me encouraged at last.

Anyway, if I get anywhere with the testosterone thing I'll certainly be posting any news.

cheers again everyone,

kevvy
 
I wish you luck requesting a testosterone test on the NHS. I've never tried myself but I'd be surprised if they would carry one out unless you had some severe symptoms pointing to a deficiency. But from what I have read and researched (extensively) on this subject, the NHS has a much lower threshhold than other countries to what constitutes 'abnormal'. This approach is similar to thyroid levels. Mine were considered normal in the UK but abnormal just about everywhere else in the world.
I dont think testosterone deficiency is taken anywhere near seriously enough in this country and its partly because doctors dont think its a problem, dont know how to treat it, its expensive to test (regularly) and treat in the long term. I believe some of the research also pointed to increased chances of prostate cancer although that research was later found to be flawed or open to interpretation.
A very few men have been lucky enough to get sympathetic GP's to test and treat them but I fear the majority had to go private.
But good luck anyway. It will be interesting to know if you are successful.
 
Many thanks candyfloss,

I'm glad someone else feels the need for a little better understanding from our health professionals. I will certainly post when/if I get any help. It may be that I am barking up the wrong tree and my testosterone levels are reasonable, it just baffles me why this isn't part of the testing procedure at diagnosis point. Anyway, more news to follow.

Thanks for your reply.

cheers

kevvy
 
I've been researching this subject myself and will be asking my GP for a testosterone test when I see her tomorrow.
I'm 58 and developed type 2 about 6 years ago and have been through just about all the oral med's that are available, none of which have brought my blood sugar levels down below double figures. I'm currently on metformin 850mg x 3 and gliclizide 80mg x4 a day.
I was told in January by the consultant at the diabetic clinic at Bedford hospital that they wouldn't even consider testosterone or any other steroid treatment, but he wouldn't disclose why, just stating that no-one needs them as "it is just a matter of will-power" to lose visceral fat (I'm 6 foot and weigh 13.4 stone, so not particularly over-weight) and you don't need it anyway (not that they've tested for that in any way).
The diabetic nurse at the hospital called me up for a 6 month check last week and said my only option now was insulin injections, which I see as only a last resort. However, before I take that step, I intend to try out treatment wit testosterone, by hook or by crook. If the GP won't prescribe it, then I'll go abroad and buy it (it isn't unlawful to bring into the UK for self use, or to possess it without prescription in the UK, but it IS unlawful to sell it without prescription).
I've attached some of the research I've been reading into the subject. However, it should be noted that these research notes I've been looking at are only for middle aged men with type 2.
I'd be very interested to hear of anyones experiences with this type of therapy (good,as well as bad).
I don't know where the uploaded research papers went to as the attachment function doesn't appear to add them to this post, although it did appear to accept them
 
I don't know if you have read this article. Treatment seems to be dependant on your Doctor's attitude. Some Dr's feel that a patient older than 50 is wasting money on a lifestyle problem, not appreciating the enormous difference men feel when their testosterone level is back to normal. :!: :shock:
http://www.sda.uk.net/testosterone
 
Thanks for that Catherine. I've just read through it.
I'll print that out and add it to the bundle of other research papers I'll be giving to my GP tomorrow.
I don't want to threaten her with legal action, but if I'm refused even the test for low testosterone, then I've been thinking of self testing and treatment, and IF it works to lower my blood sugar levels, then I'll give Judicial Review of the NHS's policy on this a serious look.
If anyone has challenged their NHS treatments by way of Judicial Review, or if there is any legal action in progress, I'd be interested to know about it as well as the outcome of it.
 
Hi. Sadly there is little appreciation of the effect of low testosterone in males as they age yet there is interest in hormone treatment for females; strange? Don't forget testosterone treatment can make any hidden prostate cancer worse. I'm not aware that testosterone treatment has much effect on blood sugars so I wouldn't keep your hopes up. Why don't you suggest to your GP that he/she adds Sitagliptin to your meds? Mine did this and it does help reduce spikes. Some GPs aren't aware of it as it's only a couple of years old. If you download the latest NICE Diabetes guidelines you will see it recommended for 3rd level tablet treatment as an alternative to insulin; worth a try?
 
Hi Daibell,
I was actually on sitagliptin 100mg for a year, but it had no effect on my sugar levels at all, so I recently took myself off of it. Likewise Pioglitazone 15mg (the side effects of which were too painfull and the 5% - 10% chance of contracting bladder cancer, both combined to compel me to drop that as well) which I also took myself off off.

Like I said above, my GP has tried just about everything available and she is quite well educated on the subject of what's available. I'm aware that the testosterone won't in itself have a deep effect on my blood sugar levels. What I expect it to do is :--

1) give me enough get-up and go to exercise effectively enough to lose the visceral (internal gut) fat that strangles organs (the theory behind the very low calory diet being that freeing the organs from this fat help the pancreas to release more insulin);

2) enable me to get rid of a high enough proportion of general body fat (I'm carrying what is probably about 2 stone of body fat externally and internally) that I can reduce my BMI (Body Mass Index) and tip the balance between fat and muscle and thereby increase my insulin sensitivity by putting on more lean muscle, which is almost impossible to do with a low testosterone level in my body, even if the testosterone doesn't shift the balance itself by altering my internal chemistry.

In Clinical Science (2002) 102, PP.151–166 (Printed in Great Britain) it says this (et al) "quote" - Testosterone replacement is known to decrease visceral adipose tissue LPL activity in men, as does postmenopausal oestrogen therapy in women [124]. These observations may explain the improvement in insulin sensitivity and the decrease in visceral fat that occur upon sex steroid replacement in middle-aged patients. In summary, testosterone present at physiological levels or as replacement therapy exerts inhibitory effects on lipid accumulation in visceral adipose tissue and abdominal fat stores..

My view is - what have I got to lose, and what have I got to gain by trying it out? If I don't try it, I'll never know.
 
TokSik said:
I've been researching this subject myself and will be asking my GP for a testosterone test when I see her tomorrow.
I'm 58 and developed type 2 about 6 years ago and have been through just about all the oral med's that are available, none of which have brought my blood sugar levels down below double figures. I'm currently on metformin 850mg x 3 and gliclizide 80mg x4 a day.
I was told in January by the consultant at the diabetic clinic at Bedford hospital that they wouldn't even consider testosterone or any other steroid treatment, but he wouldn't disclose why, just stating that no-one needs them as "it is just a matter of will-power" to lose visceral fat (I'm 6 foot and weigh 13.4 stone, so not particularly over-weight) and you don't need it anyway (not that they've tested for that in any way).
The diabetic nurse at the hospital called me up for a 6 month check last week and said my only option now was insulin injections, which I see as only a last resort. However, before I take that step, I intend to try out treatment wit testosterone, by hook or by crook. If the GP won't prescribe it, then I'll go abroad and buy it (it isn't unlawful to bring into the UK for self use, or to possess it without prescription in the UK, but it IS unlawful to sell it without prescription).
I've attached some of the research I've been reading into the subject. However, it should be noted that these research notes I've been looking at are only for middle aged men with type 2.
I'd be very interested to hear of anyones experiences with this type of therapy (good,as well as bad).
I don't know where the uploaded research papers went to as the attachment function doesn't appear to add them to this post, although it did appear to accept them
Click to expand...

How did you get on with your visit to the Doctor, TokSik?
I've been applying Testogel daily for one month. Marked improvement in libido but too early to report any other benefits.
 
I expected her to knock me back, but apart from commenting that in her view it is just another useless fad, she's sent me for a urine and blood tests to see if my production is low, and said that if it is, she'll put me on Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) and give it a shot. I went armed with a load of research print outs, but she was already aware of them so brushed them off saying that although the therapy (IF she prescribes it) may make me feel better libido and mood wise, she doubts that it'll affect my blood sugar counts, but she'll keep an open mind about it.
At the same time though, she convinced me to go back on sitagliptin 100mg, even though we had a discussion on its merits as it had no effect on me when I used it previously. But I figured that although it didn't appear to do me any good, at the same time, it didn't do me any harm and there isn't much I've read about it that shows bad side effects (though I'm always prepared to follow up on others evidence to the contrary, if anyone's got any).
 
My GP did order a blood test to see what my Testosterone levels are. I waited a month for the results and was then told when I phoned in to enquire that "you're test was fine so no further action required", but no news on what the actual level was, so I'm still in the dark. It's not that I don't trust my GP's judgement, but I'm sceptical about the advice coming from anyone with a UK-NHS back-ground and policy standpoint. I "could" go the private doctor route, but that appears to be prohibitively expensive, which I can't afford.

I've been researching the subject on the web, to see what the damage would be if I get hold of some testosterone and trial it myself, and from what I've read, so long as I keep the intake amount at the level a 30 y/o would naturally produce (a therapeutic dosage level), I shouldn't have any problems.
It's only when intake is done at a higher level than is produced by the body at a younger age, that testosterone treatment can make any hidden prostate cancer worse (I had a blood test for just that about a year ago, which came back negative).
I've got an enlarged prostate, so I've been keen to read up on which anabolic steroids affect (further enlarge) the prostate gland and lead to complications from that (testosterone being one of the main steroids that do enlarge the prostrate).
The only safe steroid which can act as a testosterone replacement that I've read up on appears to be Oxandralone, which unlike all the other steroids has no liver toxicity and doesn't affect the prostate, but does have an effect of visceral fat producing proportionately more reduction of abdominal body fat than is seen without the drug (visceral fat being, from what I can gather, one of the main problems with insulin insensitivity and/or production, not to mention the other side effects of having a lower T count).

However, the law here in the UK was changed just a few months ago (in April) to stop people buying these kind of drugs from abroad via the internet and receiving them by post, although they apparently CAN still be bought if they are posted from within the EEC (because Customs & Excise don't class anything posted from within the EEC as "importation" which makes them lawful, whereas steroids posted to me from anywhere outside the EEC are now unlawful - an Olympics side effect apparently).
However, it IS still lawful to collect steroids from anywhere in the world and bring them in personally, so long as they are only for "personal self administration".

So, I've been searching the web for a safe and reliable source of Oxandralone as there are plenty of underground labs out there producing this stuff, which I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. If anyone knows of a lawful online pharmacy that sells this within the EEC, I'd appreciate the details of it.

I'll keep you posted when (IF) I find what I'm looking for and what the effects are when I test it.
 
TokSik said:
My GP did order a blood test to see what my Testosterone levels are. I waited a month for the results and was then told when I phoned in to enquire that "you're test was fine so no further action required", but no news on what the actual level was, so I'm still in the dark. It's not that I don't trust my GP's judgement, but I'm sceptical about the advice coming from anyone with a UK-NHS back-ground and policy standpoint. I "could" go the private doctor route, but that appears to be prohibitively expensive, which I can't afford.

I've been researching the subject on the web, to see what the damage would be if I get hold of some testosterone and trial it myself, and from what I've read, so long as I keep the intake amount at the level a 30 y/o would naturally produce (a therapeutic dosage level), I shouldn't have any problems.
It's only when intake is done at a higher level than is produced by the body at a younger age, that testosterone treatment can make any hidden prostate cancer worse (I had a blood test for just that about a year ago, which came back negative).
I've got an enlarged prostate, so I've been keen to read up on which anabolic steroids affect (further enlarge) the prostate gland and lead to complications from that (testosterone being one of the main steroids that do enlarge the prostrate).
The only safe steroid which can act as a testosterone replacement that I've read up on appears to be Oxandralone, which unlike all the other steroids has no liver toxicity and doesn't affect the prostate, but does have an effect of visceral fat producing proportionately more reduction of abdominal body fat than is seen without the drug (visceral fat being, from what I can gather, one of the main problems with insulin insensitivity and/or production, not to mention the other side effects of having a lower T count).

However, the law here in the UK was changed just a few months ago (in April) to stop people buying these kind of drugs from abroad via the internet and receiving them by post, although they apparently CAN still be bought if they are posted from within the EEC (because Customs & Excise don't class anything posted from within the EEC as "importation" which makes them lawful, whereas steroids posted to me from anywhere outside the EEC are now unlawful - an Olympics side effect apparently).
However, it IS still lawful to collect steroids from anywhere in the world and bring them in personally, so long as they are only for "personal self administration".

So, I've been searching the web for a safe and reliable source of Oxandralone as there are plenty of underground labs out there producing this stuff, which I wouldn't touch with a bargepole. If anyone knows of a lawful online pharmacy that sells this within the EEC, I'd appreciate the details of it.

I'll keep you posted when (IF) I find what I'm looking for and what the effects are when I test it.
Click to expand...

I think the repsonse from your Dr is the sort I would get from mine. Its the attitude that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing (in the hands of the patient). Why withold the result? Are they frightened they are going to be challenged and have no answer? The fact they wont give you the result and say 'no further action required' makes me very suspicious. Did they really do a test? Was the result just below normal?
I do know of some people who have really good doctors and will take the subject of mens low libido seriously enough to have it tested and treated. These are probably the lucky 1%.
Its scandalous. No expense spared if you require a sex change operation on the NHS but want to restore your testosterone? F*** Off!!
 
Hi all, interesting question kevvvy. By coincedence I am just about to learn my type diabetes this week coming which will then obviously point to what meds I need to have. Secondly back in 1984 I had testicular cancer and had to have major surgery as well as the usual big C treatments, but thanks to that I have been free of cancer now for 16 years. I have had a few correctinal surgeries to put things right as they say, but because of all Ive had done at the age of 48 I have had a test confirming that my LH or Luteinising hormone is way too high indicating that production of testerosterone is failing. On november 19 I am seeing an endrochronologist with regard to starting HRT, I just wonder if I can get any idea from some results over a period of time and I will keep you informed.

Best regards

Simon aka Cobra3164
 
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