Type1. Can someone please explain Carbs in Protein and how they work?

Geoff-O said:

Thanks everyone! I was happy till I bought the Carbs & Cals book!! I'm going to largely ignore calories and stick with the low carb regime - as I have been for umpteen years.

Click to expand...

As Tim and Tork said, LC, HF and MODERATE protein. The 'new' nutritional guidelines on protein is not much more than 3 oz per meal. If you want the in's and out's on it The Rosedale Diet speaks much about the effects of too much protein on BS and leptin. When I was T2 when I 1st read the book and reduced protein I saw a dramatic reduction in BG. It was a key element I was missing in reducing my BS. As T1 now it is actually the only food I still weigh. Over 3 oz and I need to split insulin doses. Also putting 4 hours between protein meals helped a lot. I used to be a grazer but that never let BS or insulin return to normal before eating again. Protein is very insulinogenic meaning it requires a lot of insulin or it will raise BS. If we are short of insulin we will see rising BS numbers. YMMV

Wow! Leptin(fromGreekλεπτόςleptos, "thin"), the "satiety hormone,"[a]is ahormonemade byadipose cellsthat helps to regulateenergy balanceby inhibiting hunger. Leptin is opposed by the actions of the hormoneghrelin, the "hunger hormone". Both hormones act on receptors in thearcuate nucleusof thehypothalamusto regulate appetite to achieveenergy homeostasis.[2]In obesity, a decreased sensitivity to leptin occurs, resulting in an inability to detect satiety despite high energy stores.

This is fascinating Kristin!!

Geoff-O said:

Wow! Leptin(fromGreekλεπτόςleptos, "thin"), the "satiety hormone,"[a]is ahormonemade byadipose cellsthat helps to regulateenergy balanceby inhibiting hunger. Leptin is opposed by the actions of the hormoneghrelin, the "hunger hormone". Both hormones act on receptors in thearcuate nucleusof thehypothalamusto regulate appetite to achieveenergy homeostasis.[2]In obesity, a decreased sensitivity to leptin occurs, resulting in an inability to detect satiety despite high energy stores.

This is fascinating Kristin!!

Click to expand...

I agree. When I was T2 I was hungry 24/7. I was VERY low, sometimes NO carbs and hungry all the time. I just ate fat and protein. I will get just as hungry over eating protein as I will carbs. I have to Moderate my protein (2-3oz) and eat some veggies along with enough fat or I will become ravenous. I also found I cannot eat animal protein with breakfast or I am hungry all day which is why I just eat guac and celery for BF. I didn't realize any of this about protein/leptin/ ghrelin until I read Rosedale. All these crazy hormones to regulate. Might be worth a look. He has a good website www.DrRosedale.com

I remember a few years ago I ate a 10oz ribeye with butter, that was it, and I was STARVING an hour later. Hard to turn those hormones off after you turn them on.
Balance and moderation keeps me better.

Yup, hungry ALL the time! I lust after food 24/7. I shall explore Rosedale.

Geoff-O said:

Yup, hungry ALL the time! I lust after food 24/7. I shall explore Rosedale.

Click to expand...

You will enjoy Rosedale. Short read. I will give you the 'points' when I get home from work. Basically cut back on P eat above ground veg and fill in the rest with fats. It takes a few days to deplete glycogen stores and clear the liver. Also 4 hours between protein meals and then he says no more than 21 g at a time or it turns to BS and that makes us hungry.. More soon
I was ALWAYS fighting food. I COULD still eat any time but the fight doesn't occupy my entire day

Rosedale book arrives tomorrow from tax cheats Amazon! Thanks Kristin for taking the time and the effort. That's what is so great about these forums. Lovely people!!

Anytime, happy to help.
Most people only need between 40 -65 g P which is not a lot. I eat about 30 in animal /fish now and about 10 or so in plant and I have no muscle wasting. It is also said that no more than 3 oz at a time. I used to feel like my BS and insulin were bickering even though BS numbers were good I always felt hungry and unbalanced. I used to eat upwards of 100g and thought there was no way I could cut back to that small amount but I am much better for it. Excess protein not only turns to glucose but causes many other not so good issues. We only need enough for maintenance and repair and excess is detrimental. Again 58% of P turns to BS so it is by no means a free food. For instance if I eat 3 oz of fish, that is 21 g P and would turn to 10 carbs (BS). In my case 1 carb raises me about 7 points so that would mean I could go up 70 points for 3 measly ounces of fish and nothing else. Now that is fascinating!There is NO free food for us. Rosedale has a lot of supplement stuff but I skipped that part. I just take Vit D and insulin and better for that too but you make the call. I eat the same way now as T1 as I did as T2. I also find saturated fat to not be as kind as plant fats but YMMV too. Another outstanding book is Primal Body Primal Mind by Nora G something. Neither are targeted at diabetics but rather a good wholesome way to eat to keep everything balanced. She writes about leptin and ghrelin as well. Definitely worth checking out too.
Fighting incessant hunger is the worst feeling. I am sure you will learn a lot and hopefully will be a turning point to tame the hunger beast!

Kristin251 said:

Anytime, happy to help.
Most people only need between 40 -65 g P which is not a lot. I eat about 30 in animal /fish now and about 10 or so in plant and I have no muscle wasting. It is also said that no more than 3 oz at a time. I used to feel like my BS and insulin were bickering even though BS numbers were good I always felt hungry and unbalanced. I used to eat upwards of 100g and thought there was no way I could cut back to that small amount but I am much better for it. Excess protein not only turns to glucose but causes many other not so good issues. We only need enough for maintenance and repair and excess is detrimental. Again 58% of P turns to BS so it is by no means a free food. For instance if I eat 3 oz of fish, that is 21 g P and would turn to 10 carbs (BS). In my case 1 carb raises me about 7 points so that would mean I could go up 70 points for 3 measly ounces of fish and nothing else. Now that is fascinating!There is NO free food for us. Rosedale has a lot of supplement stuff but I skipped that part. I just take Vit D and insulin and better for that too but you make the call. I eat the same way now as T1 as I did as T2. I also find saturated fat to not be as kind as plant fats but YMMV too. Another outstanding book is Primal Body Primal Mind by Nora G something. Neither are targeted at diabetics but rather a good wholesome way to eat to keep everything balanced. She writes about leptin and ghrelin as well. Definitely worth checking out too.
Fighting incessant hunger is the worst feeling. I am sure you will learn a lot and hopefully will be a turning point to tame the hunger beast!

Click to expand...

Very interesting thread,i have been banging on about portion controlof carb,fat,and protein as reccomended by Dr Richard Bernstein in his book Diabetes solution 4th edition,he shows the importance of finding the balnce for each of the three food groups.

The assertion that 58% of all protein converts into glucose is based on a 101 year old study by Gannon and Nuttall that has been widely disproven (for 80 years I might add).

Furthermore, there's nothing "detrimental" about consuming excess protein (within reason)

The fact of the matter is that the relationship between protein consumption and blood glucose levels is incredibly complicated and still not completely understood.

What about the old theory that it's the combination of foods that you eat at any one time that is important? I know if I eat a full English breakfast, my levels don't go as high compared to if I ate the same amount of toast solus. Ditto a typical Sunday roast - eating the roast potatoes on their own will make my levels higher than eating the whole meal...

TorqPenderloin said:

The assertion that 58% of all protein converts into glucose is based on a 101 year old study by Gannon and Nuttall that has been widely disproven (for 80 years I might add).

Furthermore, there's nothing "detrimental" about consuming excess protein (within reason)

The fact of the matter is that the relationship between protein consumption and blood glucose levels is incredibly complicated and still not completely understood.

Click to expand...

YMMV Tork. For me protein turns to BG just as much as carbs. Study or study, 100 years or today. Perhaps it does for others as well and perhaps not but certainly worth testing.
And I disagree about excess protein being detrimental . To each his own. We all make our own choices but gathering info is never bad IMO .

Kristin251 said:

Fighting incessant hunger is the worst feeling.

Click to expand...

I wonder whether that was before or after going on to insulin Kristin? My 24/7 hunger has only started since going on Humulin M3 insulin 16 months ago. I felt much healthier BEFORE. OK, the BS figures are better but I've put on a stone. So I was probably fitter too before insulin. Is there an insulin that doesn't make you feel this way? Could this all be a big pharma conspiracy?? As I guess if you put on extra weight you need more insulin - which generates huge profits? http://www.diabetes.co.uk/healthcar...to-big-profits-for-insulin-manufacturers.html

Geoff-O said:

I wonder whether that was before or after going on to insulin Kristin? My 24/7 hunger has only started since going on Humulin M3 insulin 16 months ago. I felt much healthier BEFORE. OK, the BS figures are better but I've put on a stone. So I was probably fitter too before insulin. Is there an insulin that doesn't make you feel this way? Could this all be a big pharma conspiracy?? As I guess if you put on extra weight you need more insulin - which generates huge profits? http://www.diabetes.co.uk/healthcar...to-big-profits-for-insulin-manufacturers.html

Click to expand...

Geoff, I can only tell you my experience. I think I have always been a hungry girl but never over weight and was always able to control it. Did insulin change that? Absolutely. When I was 1st DX'd I was 96 #'s. WAY to skinny. I stated on Lantus and Novolog. I was told I needed to eat 15-20 C per meal and was put on a sliding scale dose. Started with 5 Lantus and 8-12 Novolog depending where I started. NOTHING I did kept BS stable. Highs, lows and everything in between. Within 2 months I gained my 20 #'s back and it stopped. HOWEVER, at the same time I cut out my 2 oz sweet potato and just started eating low carb. After a few hypo's I ended up reducing Novolog to 1 unit with meals and Lantus 2-3 units at night. No more lows or highs. Much easier to not fear death of insulin as a bonus. But here's the kicker, if my BG is fluctuating high or low I feel very unbalanced and the hunger starts, a physiological hunger. Ravenous. Even when BS is with in great ranges. If I go over 105 I get very hungry. I get more hunger with going up than going down. My sweet spot is 85-90 and steady. I have certain meals that I know will keep me there. Small as they may be I eat the same BF and lunch and mix dinner up a little but keep the same macros for every meal and same insulin dose. I have to get insulin there at the same time as my food and I have found with carbs other than veggies it was impossible for me. I also need to balance them. A certain amount of veggies (about a cup) a certain amount of protein (2-3 oz) and enough fat (EVOO, mayo, avocado) to satisfy. If I don't have veggies and just eat P and F I miss 'the insulin mark' . If I want a larger meal I take a little extra insulin but I up all the macros, not jut one or two. To be honest I have no idea how people on MDI just eat random meals and fluctuate without feeling crazy. It is the fluctuation much more than the number. The steadier I am the better I feel. I have stopped fighting it and just view it as 'it is just food'. Luckily I like my food! I could eat a huge plate of food but find a small amount is just as good as long as BS stays steady. Filling my stomach too much raises me as well but it also creates that ravenous hunger even if I feel like I will burst. I like Bernsteins Laws of small numbers. That means small meals for me as well.
I'm not feeding the Big Pharma. The less insulin I take the better I feel even if it means small meals. Like you, I felt better before insulin but there is no doubt I need it now and it actually gave me my life back. I was near death before they finally figured it out. Trust me I have my bad days but they were worse. And a glass of wine at the end of the night makes it much easier for me. These are the cards I was dealt and I try to take it one day at a time. If I had only one suggestion it would be to try to find meals that keep you VERY steady. And I mean very little fluctuation. Only 10 points is about my limit without feeling the effects.
As far as 58% protein turning to BG, it is ALL over the place. Bernstein, Rosedale, BS101, Primal Mind Primal Body, Think Like a Pancreas etc. As far as I can tell these books were not written 100 years ago but YMMV
As a side note, excess protein will also take you out of ketosis. Fat too actually. And wine but that one I let slide.

TorqPenderloin said:

Furthermore, there's nothing "detrimental" about consuming excess protein (within reason

Click to expand...

Have you heard of the mTOR pathway?

mTor pathway is very interesting!

Kristin251 said:

Filling my stomach too much raises me as well but it also creates that ravenous hunger even if I feel like I will burst. I like Bernsteins Laws of small numbers. That means small meals for me as well.
I'm not feeding the Big Pharma. The less insulin I take the better I feel even if it means small meals.

Click to expand...

Right, I'm going to order some smaller plates and bowls! Thank you very much Kristin.

Hi Joules - of course it depends what's in your salad! Tomatoes e.g. would normally raise BS. Even fish can be high in calories. Which is where I came in - I'm still unsure of the link between no carb foods that are high in calories - and blood sugar levels. I feel so ignorant sometimes!

What we need is an app that'll take a snap of what we are about to eat, analyse the content on a predetermined sized plate, we enter the current BS reading - and it works out the required insulin dosage...