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Type1. Can someone please explain Carbs in Protein and how they work?

Discussion in 'Type 1 Diabetes' started by joules, Feb 1, 2016.

  1. joules

    joules Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I dont understand how this works as when I assume to eat a non carb meal that contains leafy green salad, a couple of small tomatoes, fish or chicken - my blood sugars seem to go up. This also occurs when I eat an omelette with 3 eggs, aubergine, tomatoes and mushrooms and green leaf veg.

    If I don't eat anything, my sugars stay flat.

    Thank you in advance for this 'trying to get it right' :)
     
  2. Robinredbreast

    Robinredbreast Type 1 · Oracle

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    #2 Robinredbreast, Feb 1, 2016 at 2:17 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2016
  3. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    T2 here, but specifically on protein - there is a process called something like Gluconeogenesis which converts protein to glycogen (although very slowly).

    As an aside, I think that if you start to starve then your body first uses up all the stored glycogen, then starts to convert muscle (protein) into glycogen and if you are still starving it then switches to processing fats and using ketones for fuel. So if you are going to deliberately starve yourself (again talking T2 here) it helps to keep eating a small amount of protein until you go into ketosis to avoid loss of muscle mass.
     
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  4. joules

    joules Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I see. Since mid December i decided to quit all wheat, which no doubt has lost me 3.5kg in weight without much exercise - that's amazing as am back to 79kg's; like when i was 21, haha! The reason I decided on that was purely to get my sugar levels under control as am going through with Dr Bernsteins methods, which I recommend for those with fluctuating levels.
    I am just confused about weight of chicken or fish vs carbs and weather there is anything in the kj factor and carbs?
     
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  5. joules

    joules Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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  6. steve_p6

    steve_p6 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Its part of the story. Firstly general advice is to bolus 50% for protein and 10% for fat. Second if meal is high in fat/protein you need to work out how long it will take to raise the BG. For that you need to look at how many multiples of 100 cals are due to fat/protein (ie subtract your carb cals from total cals @4 cals per g of carb). The number of FPUs tells you whether to bolus over 1,2,3,4 etc hours. Check here for the details http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2901033/
     
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  7. tim2000s

    tim2000s Type 1 · Expert
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    However, to caveat that, there are some foods (trial and error required again) that cause a fairly rapid rise in blood glucose and are high in protein. Eggs and whey protein being classical examples, and the reason being they also induce a glucagon reaction. It's all nice and complex and not a lot of dietitians fully understand it.
     
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  8. noblehead

    noblehead Type 1 · Guru
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    @joules, very few type 1's can have a carb free meal and get away without injecting, maybe those still in the Honeymoon Period could.

    Why don't you just start with a low dose of insulin and experiment from there, by keeping a detailed diary on the weight/type of foods eaten plus your insulin doses you can then figure it all out, in other words it's trial & error.
     
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  9. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    I have to bolus fro protein just as much as carbs. Protein in the morning spikes me much higher than any other time of day
     
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  10. joules

    joules Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Good gawd, sounds confusing atm.
    Seems that an omelette with 1/2 raw vegies, 40g chicken + 3x eggs require 12u novorapid, though spiking up to 12mmol for a couple of hrs an hr later, which was the point of avoiding wheat previously. At least, it's not spiking any more than that, unlike wheat would. Hmm... Thanks @steve_p6 , I will look into this. @tim2000s , I had a feeling it was linked to the liver playing tricks again as i also have dawn phenomenon which requires 2u novorapid at 7am, to keep in track. If eggs are confusing matters too, is it worth quitting them too? :facepalm:
     
    #10 joules, Feb 1, 2016 at 3:18 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2016
  11. Robinredbreast

    Robinredbreast Type 1 · Oracle

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    Everyone is different joules, I have to be careful with the amount of Insulin I take with food, it could also depend on gender, weight, height, how active, type of job, exercise, etc, it can be a bit of trial and error, but good luck as you seem to doing well so far.
     
  12. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    I can't eat that much protein (61 grams) in a day let alone one meal. Excess protein can be a big player. Protein is certainly not a 'free' food. The name of the game is low carb, high fat, not high protein. After a certain amount of protein you may have to split your meal insulin. As I said protein will raise me just as much as carbs. We only need a certain amount for maintenance and repair and any excess will convert to BS. In fact 58%. Hence the reasoning behind blousing for 50%.
    Bloodsugar 101 has a good calculator for your macros.

    http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/DietMakeupCalc.php
     
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  13. Geoff-O

    Geoff-O Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Having just bought the carb counting book "Carbs & Cals" as recommended by my Practise Nurse I'm even more confused. Some of the foods I considered as "low carb" like lean steak are said to contain massive calories.
     
  14. Robinredbreast

    Robinredbreast Type 1 · Oracle

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      Steak
      Meat
      A steak is a meat generally sliced perpendicular to the muscle fibers, potentially including a bone. Wikipedia

      Nutrition Facts
      Rib eye steak, grilled
      Amount Per 100 grams
      Calories 291
      % Daily Value*
      Total Fat 22 g 33%
      Saturated fat 10 g 50%
      Polyunsaturated fat 1 g
      Monounsaturated fat 11 g
      Trans fat 1.5 g
      Cholesterol 80 mg 26%
      Sodium 54 mg 2%
      Potassium 260 mg 7%
      Total Carbohydrate 0 g 0%
      Dietary fiber 0 g 0%
      Sugar 0 g
      Protein 24 g 48%
      Vitamin A 0% Vitamin C 0%
      Calcium 1% Iron 12%
      Vitamin D 1% Vitamin B-6 25%
      Vitamin B-12 35% Magnesium 5%
     
  15. Geoff-O

    Geoff-O Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    So an average calorie count for a piece of supermarket steak seems to be 700 calories, with zero carbs according to the label. Whereas "Fresh Cornish Sardine Fillets" 180gm is 507 calories and practically zero carbs. Because they are high in calories they will increase BS. Even though they have no carbs. So why have I been following a very low carb diet for all these years. Should it be a very low calories diet regardless of carb content? Still confused.
     
  16. DavidGrahamJones

    DavidGrahamJones Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Do they? In the following paper:

    THE METABOLIC RELATIONSHIP OF THE PROTEINS TO GLUCOSE.
    III. GLUCOSE FORMATION FROM HUMAN PROTEINS.
    BY N.W. JANNEY AND N. R. BLATHERWICK.
    (From the Chemical Laboratory of the MonteJiore Home and Hospital for Chronic Invalids, New York.)

    Although there is some discussion of glucose from protein, there doesn't seem to be much and exactly how much has a big question mark. There is a much stronger correlation between gms of carbs and glucose. High in calories just isn't the same.
     
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  17. Geoff-O

    Geoff-O Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    "Although foods containing carbohydrates (carbs) have the most impact on blood sugars, the calories from all foods will affect blood sugar."
    http://www.endocrineweb.com/conditions/diabetes/treatment-diabetes

    Interesting what Kristin251 says. I've been obviously been very simplistic as regards a low-carb diet, thinking foods with zero carbs are free foods. Perhaps that's the danger of calling it a "low-carb" diet. It would explain some BS reading anomalies!
     
  18. TorqPenderloin

    TorqPenderloin Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I've mentioned this many times on this forum and it's still one of the most neglected aspects of a low-carb diet: protein intake is extremely important and too much or too little can have negative effects.

    To keep it very simple
    -Not enough protein can cause you to lose lean mass (muscle)
    -Too much protein can be converted into glucose (gluconeogenesis) which can elevate your blood sugars.
    -Each person is different, but the general rule of thumb is 1-1.5g of protein for every 1kg of body weight. Some people need less, and other people need more.

    Long story short, we should be calling it a Low carb/Moderate Protein/High Fat diet.
     
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  19. tim2000s

    tim2000s Type 1 · Expert
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    No Geoff, Hi Calories is not equal to increases in blood glucose levels. If you were to eat butter (I know, yeuch) you would see next to no increase in blood glucose levels, but eat very many calories. This is due to the processes that convert fat to carbs taking a long time, and also because fat absorption takes a long time.

    Protein is slightly different. Again it's not the calories that matter, and as a T1, protein tends to have more of an effect than as a T2 - if you eat a normal amount of protein per meal (i.e. less than 30g) then it will have very little impact on your blood glucose levels.

    The thing that will affect your blood glucose the most is carbs, and it is these that you should pay most attention to.

    I'll say again though, that statement is rather misleading.
     
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  20. Geoff-O

    Geoff-O Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks everyone! I was happy till I bought the Carbs & Cals book!! I'm going to largely ignore calories and stick with the low carb regime - as I have been for umpteen years.
     
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