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Type1. Can someone please explain Carbs in Protein and how they work?

Discussion in 'Type 1 Diabetes' started by joules, Feb 1, 2016.

  1. azure

    azure Type 1 · Expert

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    Joules, don't let it All overwhelm you. Sometimes it's easiest to keep it simple. I find that if I eat a moderate amount of carbs with my protein, I don't need to count the protein at all. On the rare occasions when I do eat a no-carb salad (I've put 'no' there because I don't count carbs in tomatoes or lettuce, etc) I have learnt from experience how much insulin I need to take for that particular meal. So I don't have to sit there calculating or anything.

    When I was first diagnosed, I got a lot of hunger, but as my sugars and body settled down on insulin, I found that abnormal hunger went away. The only time I get that now is if I have a hypo. Obviously, I still get normal hunger, but I'd be worried if I didn't : D I eat a moderate carb diet and try to keep it healthy. I test lots and my HbA1C is very good. That has largely come from experience as I learned about how my body reacts to food and insulin.

    The connection you mention between coeliac disease and Type 1 is correct. People with Type 1 are more likely to develop coeliac disease. There have been studies about whether wheat is involved in the development of Type 1, but no definite answer has been reached.
     
  2. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    I stopped wheat and all grains many many years ago.
    I have a cabinet full of appetizer plates and bowls. It is the only way my meal doesn't grow.
    I have heard many times meals should not exceed 350 cals but I don't ever count cals. I imagine they are around 250-300 consisting of 80% fat. I think the macro part is more important for me.. I somehow naturally always end up with 5% C, 15% P and 80% fat. These ratios are the only way I feel satisfied. I have tried less veg, more veg, less fat, more fat,less P, more P and I am hitting the fridge until my macros are satisfied.
    No carb foods that are high in calories still raise us. They still require some sort of balance between insulin and BS. High fat foods elicit a very small insulin response and don't directly raise BS however a high fat diet creates insulin resistance. So you may not come down as fast or you may just stay high. In my personal experience (as well as reading studies) I found saturated fat to cause the most issues and mono fats much less so. It is all such a delicate balance but once we find the balance things fall into place better. That is exactly why I have the exact same BF and L. If I mess up BF the whole day is shot.
     
  3. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    I keep it simple too. That is my motto. I as well have learned how to dose just by looking at my food but I do weigh protein as it is far too easy for me to over estimate and I do need to split boluses then.
    How long were you on insulin before the hunger settled? I have found recently timing of my boluses is helping.
    I am not celiac however I am gluten free because I am intolerant and it makes me very IR. I was told by all my Dr's to stay GF even though I am not celiac.
     
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  4. azure

    azure Type 1 · Expert

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    I was diagnosed more than 20 years ago, so I don't exactly remember when the hunger went. This is just a guess, but I would estimate it was a few weeks of feeling starving hungry and then maybe a few months of not feeling quite normally hungry, if that makes sense? When I was first diagnosed, I followed the instructions I was given (and of course still had some insulin production of my own then) but I found that I could get my blood sugar more level by using my own experience and adjusting my own insulin carefully. The better my control, the more normal my hunger.

    I'd also add that when I was first diagnosed I became almost afraid of food for a while. It seemed like an enemy that'd put my blood sugar up. So I probably ate less than I needed early on. Then I realised that it was a lack of experience with diabetes that was making me spike after meals not perfectly normal food. So I worked on improving my control and making sure I ate close to what I would have eaten without diabetes (obviously with a few adjustments for the diabetes).

    Finally, years later, I found that the pump improved things even more as it allows a far more accurate delivery of insulin according to my needs. It's the closest to a pancreas I can get, and I do notice a difference compared to how I felt on MDI. I feel more stable and more normal.
     
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  5. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    I certainly would imagine the pump helps. I think the bolus (no matter what size) at the beginning of the meal, as opposed to the way a normal pancreas works and follows BS, throws things off. I know I feel most stable on low doses (1 unit) or I still have lows and then highs. I am still tweaking bolus timing. I have never in all my life digested carbs well without bloating, fatigue etc so I have really been VLC for over 20 years (whenever Atkins came out) and T1 your almost 2 years. T2 probably about 5 before T1. I like my small meals even though I LOVE food, large meals don't sit well. I completely understand the fear of food but I think I have always had that for one reason or another. Either weight gain , diabetes or some other reason. It is weird because I love food but it has never loved me.
    And I am behind you 100% with the better control the better the hunger but when that hunger hits it is impossible to control. I have found if I even go up a bit I have the hunger but it feels better if I take a 1/2 unit correction even if I am not high it feels better. I don't take one if I am not over 110 or I take 1/2 unit with a small snack. That seems to help. I almost have this weird new intuition when I need a 'fix'.
    Thank for your explanation.
     
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  6. bigbear1979

    bigbear1979 Type 2 · Active Member

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    Snap I'm the same I love food but it doesn't love me ..and now it seems what I" thought was healthy is bad for me 2. Good luck! !
     
  7. azure

    azure Type 1 · Expert

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    We're all different and we all react differently to foods :) I think if people have additional problems then that can complicate diabetes control further.

    @Kristin251 I used to think I had IBS a few years ago, but a change of diet helped that, and I rarely have issues now. I also find probiotics useful. So yes, individual responses to food can vary a lot. "One man's meat is another man's poison" as they say.

    I think we all have foods that sit well with us better than others, and that's just another thing to take into account when considering what to eat in relation to the diabetes. Just to add to the fun!
     
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  8. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    So very true. I do take a probiotic and it does help. My main issues are when I over eat veggies and that is easy to do for me because I love them all, and lots of them. I use appetizer plates now as measuring cups and it does help. Hormones play a roll as well of course. I also find too much protein throws me off, not digestion but BS and then creates that ravenous hunger which is why I still weigh my P.
    Thanks for all your thoughts Azure
     
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  9. TorqPenderloin

    TorqPenderloin Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    First, I’d like to say that you’ve raised many excellent topics and I had quite a bit of enjoyment reading up on them. Furthermore, sharing personal experiences is very important and it’s largely why this forum as a whole exists.

    Trouble arises when it’s unclear if someone is stating a fact or an opinion. When I encounter these situations, I do my best to ask questions to provide more clarity to myself as well as the rest of the forum. Sometimes my actions are misinterpreted, but my ultimate goal is to help others make decisions based on accurate information. In return, I would expect others to question my thoughts and opinions just the same.

    My comments below are my basic personal assessments of each book or source you mentioned above. I included quotes from three of the five sources you mentioned. I do not consider the other two sources to be qualified medical professionals, but I acknowledge the value their books provide to many people.

    1.)Bernstein specifically states in his book “Diabetes Solution: The Complete Guide to Achieving Normal Blood Sugar levels:”
    “As much as 36 percent” if the right conditions are met and cites “If blood sugar descends too low, if serum insulin levels are inadequate, or if the body’s other amino acid needs have been met.”

    He also states in his book that “The average non pregnant, sedentary adult with an ideal body weight of 150 pounds” needs about “69 grams of pure protein” to prevent protein malnutrition. He also goes on to say that “Most physically active people should consume at least 1-1.2 grams of protein per kilogram of ideal body weight.”

    2.) Rosedale recommends roughly 1g of protein for every 1kg of lean body mass. On his website, he mentions that some people need “A little more,” and lists males, people who exercise, are unusually muscular.

    3.) Jenny Ruhl has been called on this forum many times for citing outdated studies to support her opinions. While I believe her books are great motivational tools, I do not consider her opinions to carry any more weight than yours or mine.

    4.) I have many similar thoughts about Nora Gedguadas: great motivational books, but she lacks credentials to be taken seriously as a medical professional.

    5.) On page 51 of “Think Like a Pancreas,” Gary Scheiner states “Protein’s effect on blood sugar is minimal. One exception is when very little carbohydrate is consumed.” He even uses the words “When carbohydrate is present in a meal or snack, protein has little to no effect on the blood sugar.”

    In conclusion: this is an incredibly complicated topic and the medical community is extremely divided in regards to what is "too much" or what is "too little." Consequently, we have no chance of ever achieving the answer here in this thread.
     
    #49 TorqPenderloin, Feb 5, 2016 at 4:23 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2016
  10. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Ummm.....think that must be a typo. :)
    1g per kilogram perhaps?

    Or should I go out and kill an elephant or two?
    Just to keep my strength up, you understand.:cool:

    [See you just edited it.]
     
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    #50 LittleGreyCat, Feb 5, 2016 at 5:06 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2016
  11. LittleGreyCat

    LittleGreyCat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    In general non-carbohydrate/non-sugar bits of a meal dilute the carbohydrates and slow their absorption and processing.

    If you looked at the "and sugars" bit of the nutritional information, you would generally have a quick hit if you just ate that amount of sugar on its own.

    You also asked about the link between calories and blood sugar. These are not necessarily directly related. As far as I can tell at the moment fats (high in calories) can be absorbed into the blood stream and carried directly to the cells where they are used for energy (or stored for later). So, calories burned but no glucose involved. Some fats go to the liver and can be processed to produce glucose but some fats don't.
     
  12. Kyi

    Kyi Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    No one has mentioned that both meals had tomatoes in. 100g of tomatoes (average small tomato is about 120g) has 3.9g of carbs in. 2.6g of which is sugar and the rest fiber. Maybe its the tomatoes that is spiking the sugars. Try the same meal without the tomato and see if it still spikes.
     
  13. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    I 100% agree !
    Thank you for your detailed research however I think it was clear that this was MY experience and others MMV. There are plenty of diabetics that don't know that protein should to be considered in the BS equation. It is not just LC and high fat and protein is free. I did not know protein can raise BS until I read someone's 'experience' and then found Rosedale. Protein is a tough one and obviously I have no idea (not sure anyone else does either) the exact % that turns to glucose and I assume it would change meal to meal day to day and person to person. I was trying to simply say that protein does have an effect on BS and should be considered and in 'my experience' it is a profound effect. Also that if people are doing LC HF and still struggling they could look at protein. I was also addressing Geoff's questions and never stated I was an expert. Just simple what "I have found".

    I actually emailed Dr Rosedale and got a personal response that for me anything over 15g per meal would turn to BS and also be 'detrimental". I am technologically challenged but if you would like to read it on his website it is dated Jan 7, 2013 with the subject line 'protein'. Furthermore if you research Rosedale he says .8 g per kg but for diabetics he will go as low as .4. He also says 1g/kg - 10% . I will admit he has quite a few formulas but i was just trying to give a source that explains the protein dilemma.
    I could pick in all your quotes like TLAP because if we are eating low carb (which Geoff said he was) then protein does matter. I am not hear to challenge or nit pick but rather thought I had an idea that Geoff could 'test' for himself.

    I also believe that the mTOR pathway is very important concerning protein but to be clear, that is my belief.

    I never intended to imply that I was an expert as I surely am not. I was just offering up suggestions. Should I not post if I don't have 'studies' to back up my thoughts? I thought I was clear that is was my experience but maybe not.
     
  14. Geoff-O

    Geoff-O Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Kristin! It was all very clear I thought. It's good to challenge stuff, but it's also even better to hear people's own experiences like yours and Joule's. When there are similar detailed experiences happening out there it gives one hope, reassurance and sparks a re-evaluation of one's lifestyle. (That's something local medics/nurses are unable to do following their one day course that allows them the title of diabetic professional.) Certainly Kristin's experiences/opinions have given me fresh vigour and have got me out of my nutritional rut already today - and also given me a new shopping list! Bravissimo!!!

    Following LittleGreyCat's views on fats deposited from calories, did anybody see the recent report that hoovering off the fat deposited around the pancreas can reverse or at least reduce the effects of Type 2 diabetes? Or did I dream that? So if eating high calorific but no carb protein causes deposits of extra fat around vital organs - what is one to eat? Ho hum! Watercress and celery I guess ;)

    Edited by a mod to add diabetes type to avoid any confusion.
     
    #54 Geoff-O, Feb 5, 2016 at 7:50 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2016
  15. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    Hi Geoff! When I 1st heard about protein raising BG a light came on and that one thing was the key to MUCH better control. Glad you are excited, I know I sure was. For awhile I did just protein and fat and had not so good numbers but adding some low GI (above ground) veggies certainly seemed to even that out. As diabetics we can, of course, stick with low carb but veggies 'round' out the whole thing. Balance.....that is the name of the game. They all work in synergy. Different stages of diabetes calls for different plans. (MDI, pumpers, T2 etc) and we all need to find 'our own' meals. I hope you found some tasty new foods! Hope you got some avocados!!! My favorite and most BS friendly food!

    Edited by a mod to clarify we all eat various levels of carbs as suits us
     
    #55 Kristin251, Feb 5, 2016 at 10:51 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2016
  16. Geoff-O

    Geoff-O Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi Kristin - I have 2 avocados! But I don't make guac, I just slice them and have a little apple vinegar on them.
     
  17. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    Outstanding Geoff! however you like them> I like sea salt, you vinegar Cheers!
     
  18. Kristin251

    Kristin251 LADA · Expert

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    Just one more thing Geoff. Please be sure to monitor your BS closely as diet changes can mean insulin changes.

    Hope you are enjoying your new foods! What did you get?
     
  19. RuthW

    RuthW Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Extraordinary how this discussion on T1s and protein has become dominated by T2s.
     
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  20. Geoff-O

    Geoff-O Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Most of us who have taken part are on insulin even if T2. A lot of the fascinating discussions seem to have been relevant to both. I think it's educational for all flavours of diabetics to be able to discuss common issues. The moderators seem to have been happy so far.

    http://www.diabetes.co.uk/difference-between-type1-and-type2-diabetes.html
    ...Eventually, you [T2's] can get to a similar situation as someone with type 1 diabetes, in which your body is incapable of producing the amount of insulin you need to keep blood glucose levels under control. Insulin injections are necessary in these situations

    Genetic T2 25 years, has run in the male line for 3 generations at least.
     
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