What do you think about Michael Greger says about Diabetes?

LittleGreyCat · Jul 19, 2016

Brunneria said:
yes, but isn't this thread about HCLF? Such a diet will have those grains, although they will also be accompanied by large amounts of other veg, which will increase the fibre content...

Is ketosis even possible on a HCLF diet? - that was a rhetorical question, cos I don't expect anyone to actually know the answer!

I think that the answer is "generally, no" as ketosis relies on there being insufficient carbohydrates to meet your energy needs and sufficient fats to replace them (eaten or already present in your body).

I will add the rider that the Newcastle Diet has a high(ish) level of carbohydrates related to other constituents and very little fat but I would not regard it as high carbohydrate low fat - more a very low calorie diet:

"

Calories 160
Protein (g) 14
Carbohydrate (g) 20
Fat (g) 3
Sodium (mg) 220
Potassium (mg) 470
Fiber (g) 0
Vitamins & Minerals 10-30% of RDI
Lactose (g) <1

"

Basically, if you are losing any body fat you are probably experiencing ketosis for some of the time (I am assuming that you are metabolising the fats to make up for the energy deficit) but this is probably not the same as being in long term ketosis or being "fat adapted" where your main source of energy is fats.

Ooops! Just talked myself into a corner - yes you can experience ketosis on HCLF as long as you are running an energy deficit which makes you metabolise some of your body fat.

Which in turn makes me wonder if, when you are fasting on only water for an extended period and relying on body fat for all your energy needs, you are actually on zero carbs high fat ?

dawnmc · Jul 19, 2016

JenniferG said:
Well I felt I posted this in the appropriate place, because a friend bought me his book, and I'm interested in the plant based diet. I am just trying to make sense of it. He's vegetarian. I'm currently on a LCHF diet that eats meat. I was trying to gain perspective. How a very insulin resistant person such as myself could eat a plant based diet without having to inject insulin.

I too am reading this book, my son recommended it, he's a skinny, but even he has gone vegan and has now lost more weight.

Brunneria · Jul 19, 2016

Oldvatr said:
JenniferG (the OP) is stated as currently using LCHF, and a meat eater. They are interested in the whole plant diet in the book to see if it is suitable for them to change to. So if they are self monitoring, then they will soon discover if the new diet suited their metabolism or not. We have just shown here those aspects of their diet that will change. i.e. grain input, no meat, no ketosis. dairy(?) and high carb ( and 1 egg a week) but then maybe these are things they have issues with on their present diet.
What the OP needs is info on what would change and what the possible consequences may be. For example, could LCHF be adapted to a form of whole plant or similar vegetarian diet or is it a total rethink?

Edit to add: The thinking behind the 1 egg a week is that Dr Greger says our cholesterol is directly linked to dietary intake.

I don't think it is up to you (or anyone on the forum) to decide what the OP needs. I am sure they can decide for themselves.
We are having an open and interesting discussion, but there is no need for you (or anyone) to direct it, or to say what the OP will find interesting, or not.

Apologies @JenniferG for talking about you in the third person.

KevinPotts · Jul 19, 2016

SunnyExpat said:
Bacon, eggs, sausages, - certainly on the list on items that made me obese!

Those were a big part of me shedding weight by the bucket load...of course coupled with very low carbs!

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SunnyExpat · Jul 19, 2016

KevinPotts said:
Those were a big part of me shedding weight by the bucket load...of course coupled with very low carbs!

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As I said thought, eight as a snack didn't do it for me.

JohnEGreen · Jul 19, 2016

bulkbiker said:
One egg a week ...seriously? I find that very hard to believe..

I think maybe he was talking about Ostrich eggs.

KevinPotts · Jul 19, 2016

JohnEGreen said:
I think maybe he was talking about Ostrich eggs.

Or the slightly rarer Tetradactyl egg

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lindisfel · Jul 19, 2016

Is there any information on how this diet effects LDL, HDL and Trigs? If it puts up HDL and brings down trigs it is a sure sign it improves insulin resistance and will result in a lower Hba1c?
I apologise if that has already been quoted as evidence but I didn't see it on the thread.
D.

lindisfel · Jul 19, 2016

KevinPotts said:
Those were a big part of me shedding weight by the bucket load...of course coupled with very low carbs!

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They said it was the burgers killed Elvis but it was probably the baps!

Bye the way I reckon this one had big eggs! Pterosaurs - Big Bend National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

lindisfel · Jul 19, 2016

Hi LGC, The potassium you quote is a tenth of the recommended daily intake and could well cause high BP problems. D.

SunnyExpat · Jul 19, 2016

lindisfel said:
Hi LGC, The potassium you quote is a tenth of the recommended daily intake and could well cause high BP problems. D.

How was the rda for potassium established?
Potassium to salt is a ratio, and the salt is low, so the potassium doesn't need to be as high.

That gets you onto the 'you need a lot of salt' theory though.

And that's also only 1 shake of the day, so times it by 4, and add whatever veg you throw in....

LittleGreyCat · Jul 19, 2016

lindisfel said:
Hi LGC, The potassium you quote is a tenth of the recommended daily intake and could well cause high BP problems. D.

I think that is because on a very low calorie diet you have to take in extra salts.

Actually, no, if you are having 3 shakes a day and not much else then that is only 30% of your RDA and is quite low!

Three shakes at 160 kcals each is 480 kcals so you need another 120 kcals to make your daily 600. Which is a scarily low number.

lindisfel · Jul 19, 2016

No way, there is no such recommended ratio. Sodium is controlled by the renin/aldosterone ratio control from the adrenal glands. And operates via kidneys and even sweat glands as sodium loss regulators.

SunnyExpat said:
How was the rda for potassium established?
Potassium to salt is a ratio, and the salt is low, so the potassium doesn't need to be as high.

That gets you onto the 'you need a lot of salt' theory though.

And that's also only 1 shake of the day, so times it by 4, and add whatever veg you throw in....

SunnyExpat · Jul 19, 2016

lindisfel said:
No way, there is no such recommended ratio. Sodium is controlled by the renin/aldosterone ratio control from the adrenal glands. And operates via kidneys and even sweat glands as sodium loss regulators.

So where does the rda come from?
Or is it a finger in the air job?

I can't remember, is Mercola a good guy, or bad guy on this site?

Canadian_cousin · Jul 19, 2016

JenniferG said:
I tend to agree with Banting, George F. Cahill, Jr., Gary Taubes and Dr. Jason Fung, etc.. that carbs cause insulin resistance which causes obesity & diabetes (not to mention Metabolic Syndrome and Cardiovascular Disease). A quote from George F. Cahill, Jr, former professor of medicine and Harvard Medical School : "Carbohydrate is driving insulin is driving fat". I believe it is predominantly refined carbs that causes obesity. And that's why obesity is so prevalent in poorer areas of the world and country. Because carb products are cheap to make and store and sell. They are addictive and cheap. My BF and I just went shopping at the grocery store and every single aisle was carbs, carbs, carbs... except for the canned pickled stuff and maybe some canned veggies. Only on the outer edges of the store are the whole foods like fresh veggies, meats and dairy.. I rarely buy anything in the inner aisles of the store. We walked through the entire store and just shook our heads and said "carbs" after passing each and every aisle.

Anyways I wouldn't mind trying a high fat, low carb vegetarian approach if that is possible. Like I could have some vegetarian days to maybe have some variety. Maybe some Mediteranian days as well. Is it possible to get enough protein on vegetarian diet without consuming too many carbs? I guess I'd have to throw some cheese in and maybe some fish. I dunno. I can't tolerate carbs... I am very insulin resistant. One unit of regular insulin only covers 2 mg/dL of blood sugar. In a normal non-overweight non-diabetic person, 1 unit of insulin covers 40 mg/dL of blood sugar. So I am twenty times more insulin resistant than a normal person. The smallest amount of carbs shoot my blood sugar up. I ate some black beans the other day and they brought the sugar up pretty high. Was a moderate amount too. I thought black beans were one of the best because there is so much fiber in them.

Canadian_cousin · Jul 19, 2016

Dear B, I really agree with your reply and I'm fascinated about how insulin resistance can be measured. But as to the high carb vegan diet,I remember reading in Dr. Fung about a couple of anomalies, the traditional Okinawan diet heavy on sweet potatoes,no processed foods, and the high rice traditional Asian diet with few sugars or processed foods. He came to the conclusion that the sweet potato based diet was very heavy on fibre, and the high rice diet was also high in pickled vegetables, which seemed to balance out the high carb. Of course as soon as China was getting processed western foods there was a huge explosion of type two diabetes, rivalling the American numbers. Dr. Fung says the killer combo is high carb and high fat together. So perhaps the vegan combo of high plant fibre high carb and low fat can work with the higher carbs when it's unprocessed vegetable based like the vegan and Okinawan diet. Sorry for the recycled Dr F. but I read his book on your advice and it's wonderful and the best overview of some of these issues I have found. Many thanks.

Canadian_cousin · Jul 19, 2016

Canadian_cousin said:
Dear B, I really agree with your reply and I'm fascinated about how insulin resistance can be measured. But as to the high carb vegan diet,I remember reading in Dr. Fung about a couple of anomalies, the traditional Okinawan diet heavy on sweet potatoes,no processed foods, and the high rice traditional Asian diet with few sugars or processed foods. He came to the conclusion that the sweet potato based diet was very heavy on fibre, and the high rice diet was also high in pickled vegetables, which seemed to balance out the high carb. Of course as soon as China was getting processed western foods there was a huge explosion of type two diabetes, rivalling the American numbers. Dr. Fung says the killer combo is high carb and high fat together. So perhaps the vegan combo of high plant fibre high carb and low fat can work with the higher carbs when it's unprocessed vegetable based like the vegan and Okinawan diet. Sorry for the recycled Dr F. but I read his book on your advice and it's wonderful and the best overview of some of these issues I have found. Many thanks.

Ps, a question: does the high carb vegan diet also factor in the net carb approach, where the amount of fibre is subtracted from the total carbs? I'm not familiar with the writer who was cited to start this thread, and the diets referred to so forgive my ignorance. Also wanted to say I think this thread is really interesting and I'm glad it was opened up to the general forum!there is so much fresh thinking on diabetes and diet these days and this forum is the best place I know for tips on what to read next and what works for different people. Keep it up!

SunnyExpat · Jul 19, 2016

China is interesting.

Several issues come to play

China’s standard of living and life expectancy have improved
Reduced physical activity, more cars sold in china.
High rates of smoking.
The classic Chinese lifestyle was a low-calorie diet rich in carbohydrates and low in animal fat.
This is a key change is recent years.
Way more animal based foods, and way more high-fat foods.
Refined rice
More salt

So, from a classic HCLF, active lifestyle, to a sedentary western lifestyle.

tatterzombie · Jul 20, 2016

@JenniferG if you are interested in a plant based approach to diabetes I would suggest the book
"Dr. Neal Barnard's Program for Reversing Diabetes".. Or watch one of his speeches on youtube about diabetes.. There is much more information in there than in the how not to die book

KevinPotts · Jul 20, 2016

tatterzombie said:
@JenniferG if you are interested in a plant based approach to diabetes I would suggest the book
"Dr. Neal Barnard's Program for Reversing Diabetes".. Or watch one of his speeches on youtube about diabetes.. There is much more information in there than in the how not to die book

I think I'll get a copy myself..not come across him yet and I consume knowledge

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