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What is the HF in LCHF?

Totto said:
I didn't say eating the occasional grain of wild grass would kill you. To believe we risk deficiencies by not eating grain is however rather stupid. I'm talking about the species, not about ethnic groups around the world who started to grow stuff like spuds. Had spuds been essential to us there would be neither spuds nor humans as we wouldn't have been around to start agriculture in South America.
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well that is why we have defunct appendix it churned up the grass and leaves we ate seemingly
 
Brunneria said:
Here you go:

Why Spinach is Not a Great Calcium Source
Although spinach has a lot of good stuff going for it, it’s not a great source of calcium.
Not all food-based calcium is well-absorbed. Spinach, for example, contains quite a bit of calcium but it also contains a lot of oxalates. These natural compounds bind with calcium and make it very difficult for your body to get at it. Although spinach has a lot of good stuff going for it, it’s not a great source of calcium. In fact, because the oxalates in spinach can bind to the calcium in other foods as well, it can even keep you from getting as much calcium from the foods that you eat with it. Unless you never eat calcium-rich foods except with spinach, this is not a big deal—just something to keep in mind.

taken from here:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/healthy-eating/what-are-the-best-sources-of-calcium
(quite an interesting article for a number of reasons)
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well spinach gives us iron and that really needed .canot eat liver every day can we
 
Brunneria said:
Here you go:

Why Spinach is Not a Great Calcium Source
Although spinach has a lot of good stuff going for it, it’s not a great source of calcium.
Not all food-based calcium is well-absorbed. Spinach, for example, contains quite a bit of calcium but it also contains a lot of oxalates. These natural compounds bind with calcium and make it very difficult for your body to get at it. Although spinach has a lot of good stuff going for it, it’s not a great source of calcium. In fact, because the oxalates in spinach can bind to the calcium in other foods as well, it can even keep you from getting as much calcium from the foods that you eat with it. Unless you never eat calcium-rich foods except with spinach, this is not a big deal—just something to keep in mind.

taken from here:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/healthy-eating/what-are-the-best-sources-of-calcium
(quite an interesting article for a number of reasons)
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Based on this theory Almonds are not good either because they are high in oxalates.http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=48
 
Indy51 said:
Apparently how problematic oxalates are in your personal health is related to whether you have a healthy level of oxalobacter formigenes in your microbiota makeup - it may be lacking in people susceptible to kidney stones etc:

http://aem.asm.org/content/68/8/3841.full
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I don't like spinach. After reading that article, i still don't like spinach. I am glad I have other sources of calcium.
 
britishpub said:
I think @Tim55 and @Winnie53 have experience of supplements, not necessarily all relating to the LC diet, but which might be interesting.

I think Vitamin B12 and B6 were one's a LC could leave you low on.
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Hi There

It is true that I take Alpha Lipoic Acid, Benfotiamine and Methyl Cobolamine supplements in conjunction with LCHF principles, but my reasons for doing so are because I believe they help my problems with peripheral neuropathy.

What I did find though is that they also caused a reduction in my FBG levels, and if I stop taking them I see an immediate increase.

I think, although I do not know, that this is probably because my insulin resistance is possibly caused by an inability to properly metabolise vitamin B12 - something which would not be helped by the Metfornin I am prescribed.

I have been able to reduce my metformin from 4 x 500 mgr daily to 3, and briefly to 2.

I also tried L-Acetyl Carnitine as well, as I read it helps Alpha Lipoic Acid to work. Initially, this caused my FBG levels to fall further, but after about 2 weeks they started to rise again and my weight started to increase, so I've stopped taking that one and increased my Metformin back to 3.

I realise this doesn't address the atual question originally asked but I hope some one may find it interesting, or even useful.

Cheers

Tim
 
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Tim55 said:
Hi There

It is true that I take Alpha Lipoic Acide, Benfotiamine and Methyl Cobolamine supplements in conjunction with LCHF principles, but my reasons for doing so are because I believe they help my problems with peripheral neuropathy.

What I did find though is that they also caused a reduction in my FBG levels, and if I stop taking them I see an immediate increase.

I think, although I do not know, that this is probably because my insulin resistance is possibly caused by an inability to properly metabolise vitamin B12 - something which would not be helped by the Metfornin I am prescribed.

I have been able to reduce my metformin from 4 x 500 mgr daily to 3, and briefly to 2.

I also tried L-Acetyl Carnitine as well, as I read it helps Alpha Lipoic Acid to work. Initially, this caused my FBG levels to fall further, but after about 2 weeks they started to rise again and my weight started to increase, so I've stopped taking that one and increased my Metformin back to 3.

I realise this doesn't address the atual question originally asked but I hope some one may find it interesting, or even useful.

Cheers

Tim
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Thanks for sharing. I too have used ALA, and found a small lowering effect in bgl. it is available on scrip on the continent and is prescribed for peripheral neuropathy. Is is not accepted by NiCE.

I tried L-Carnitine for a while, but did not see much effect on me, and I gave it up when i dicovered it was used by bodybuilders, and that most of the positive reviews on it came from fashion mags, not in relation to diabetes treatments. WebMD website is supportive of it, though there is a caution on its use following recent research.

I have not seen any advice on use of any of these particular supplements in relation to LCHF diets, but L-Carnitine is often used for assisting fat metabolism in the weight loss arena, and the warnings seem to be linked to this use. It is also not recommended for vegetarians and vegans.
 
britishpub said:
Thanks @Tim55

Sorry to drag you into the conversation, I had a vague recollection, not the actual reasoning
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No Worries mate - happy to share any information I might have.

For the record, Oldvatrs experience with ALA and Acetyl carnitine match mine - I'm sure it is the ALA that contributes to lower fbg levels, although that may be a synergistic effect with the vitamins, rather than A-L-c.

I am still taking this mix because I have seen great improvements in the neuropathy in my fingers as a result, although my feet still have some way to go.
 
If you find yourself thirsty and drinking more water, then you are probably depleting the water soluble minerals in your body. These are primarily
Sodium
Potassium
Zinc
Magnesium.
Leafy green veg will replace most of these. Avacado and fish look after the potassium. Zinc is not so easy for vegans since the best souces are meat and cheese, but almonds, cashew nuts, and shellfish are also on the list.
 
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Oldvatr said:
A very good and well written report. I am going to have to read it a few times to make sure I understand it. Thank you for sharing it here. I certainly came away from my first pass feeling positive about its conclusions. What is interesting is that it is a report from a respected financial investment bank (I think thats still true) and is aimed at investors. it covers trends and changes in agric chemical land and hence how commodities are already being affected by this new 'technology'. This is serious stuff, and shows that this diet has far reaching effects for business and the money markets not just the health benefits.

It is a slightly quirky report though since it is difficult to see who the target audience is. it has a very high and specialised technical data content, way above the heads of the average businessman or financial investor. it could be aimed at HCP's, but what do they care about commodities? it could be aimed at the food manufacturers, but then they don't need the technical stuff at this level, Food retailers and the catering industry need the commodity trend data, but again not the nitty gritty techno speak.

I am baffled as to who Credit Suisse are aiming this report to? it does not detract from the content though which is well presented.

Thank you again for this, it is quite comprehensive.
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Investors. Fat is the new sugar, and well worth a few investments here and there. More people are becoming convinced fat is healthy, Credit Suisse make money out of selling that image. A cynic would suggest they have the same relationship with that report as a drug company publishing trials of a drug they are keen to sell. But a shrewd investor would put money in both.
 
SunnyExpat said:
Investors. Fat is the new sugar, and well worth a few investments here and there. More people are becoming convinced fat is healthy, Credit Suisse make money out of selling that image. A cynic would suggest they have the same relationship with that report as a drug company publishing trials of a drug they are keen to sell. But a shrewd investor would put money in both.
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Of course they do. But the report they produced is much much better than many I have viewed, and is well up to date with current research. If investors start telling their 'interests' to follow the bandwagon, then we should all benefit from the music. This report gives gravitas to our cause and is something worthwhile that we can print off for our HCP's to absorb and digest.
 
They do a good one on sugar as well. Sweeteners are a good tip.

https://publications.credit-suisse....fm?fileid=780BF4A8-B3D1-13A0-D2514E21EFFB0479

It's a 2013 report, and seems to be an accurate prediction.


As to the quality, of course it's good. And any report telling people to carry on buying, or promoting trends for investment is normally well received, They do some good guides to speculative investing. I've done a few spread bets based on their reports, including the 'fat'

But these are sidelines to them , they spend a lot more promoting investment in pharmacy companies. And that usually makes money as well.
 
SunnyExpat said:
They do a good one on sugar as well. Sweeteners are a good tip.

https://publications.credit-suisse....fm?fileid=780BF4A8-B3D1-13A0-D2514E21EFFB0479

It's a 2013 report, and seems to be an accurate prediction.


As to the quality, of course it's good. And any report telling people to carry on buying, or promoting trends for investment is normally well received, They do some good guides to speculative investing. I've done a few spread bets based on their reports, including the 'fat'

But these are sidelines to them , they spend a lot more promoting investment in pharmacy companies. And that usually makes money as well.
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Wonder what they might say about statins? That could be interesting.
 
Oldvatr said:
Wonder what they might say about statins? That could be interesting.
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They won't. The money is in drugs already.

But food? Consumption is increasing, the last thing they'll want is less sales, so a prod from sugar to fat won't hurt. Or if fact, a prod to fat, and sugar.

The fat report is interesting, in that the authors aren't acknowledged, there is a lot of use of buzzwords, and one liners from other reports, no references as such, and not a single negative. Not a balanced report, it's a sales pitch, and stated as opinion in the disclaimer. But you are right, it's a good one, and it will give good reinforcement to those that want it, and will increase sales in the market area.
 
Oldvatr said:
We had a 'discussion' in one of the other threads here that showed that there seems to be a gap in our understanding of what the Protein and Fat parts of the LCHF diet do. I certainly completed my LCHF training course, and came away with a large question mark about it, so had to do a load more research. i want to use this thread to discuss the role of protein and fat specifically and i think the LC part is well understood and is discussed already in the Low Carb threads.

I have put this as a discussion because i sincerely think it needs discussion, and also because there were those that felt that this topic should not be discussed in the Low Carb Forum. There were also those that felt it should not be discussed at all.

Has anyone got any good links to reports that describe how we metabolise protein and fat, and also shows how they differ in what they do?

I would also like to look at the safety side of this topic, since there are legitimate concerns in respect of heavy use of these, and take into account recent research findings that seem to turn established thinking upside down

Please join in.
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I quoted your question, just to remind people of your last line.
New devolopment in the last few days.

http://news.mit.edu/2016/diet-influences-colon-cancer-0302

It's being well reported, google
'High-fat diet may make intestinal stem cells to become cancerous'

And apparently, the study was 'high fat' this time, not 'high fat, high calorie'

I'll keep my head down now.
 
SunnyExpat said:
I quoted your question, just to remind people of your last line.
New devolopment in the last few days.

http://news.mit.edu/2016/diet-influences-colon-cancer-0302

It's being well reported, google
'High-fat diet may make intestinal stem cells to become cancerous'

And apparently, the study was 'high fat' this time, not 'high fat, high calorie'

I'll keep my head down now.
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You are safe from me. This is the purpose of my OP, to find out what lurks within.....
The Google search I did ran out of steam after page 1, and most of the listings were referencing the same MIT report. Most of the 'reputable' reviews of the report (NHS, FORBES, Medical News Today, The Independant, et al) were making the same observation from the report that the mice were fed fat, became obese, and suffered in the same way as previously shown in studies, that obesity increases the risk of certain cancers. The consensus was that if you use a high fat diet in order to become obese, then there are consequences. the study did not replicate the conditions where the intake of fat is used to maintain a good body weight, but not to excess. I.E intake remains in control. I think anyone on LCHF is choosing the recommended oils and fats, and not bingeing out.

There was another study listed, and this was the link between breast cancer and a high fat diet. Again, the link to obesity and other factors could not be isolated from the result, and the result was inconclusive.

Having just lost a friend to colorectal cancer at a young age (48) //i am aware of the danger, but in his case he was a large man, not diabetic or obese, and eating 'Eatwell plate' type of diet as far as I could tell. But he drank alcohol regularly.

I think a single study is too early to cause a panic, but if you find other reports, then please post them here. There is of course the other study that seems to show a link between red meat consumption and cancer, and also the study that appears to link processed meat with cancer. My grandparents and boarding schools bought me up on bread and dripping, bacon sarnies, and Sunday Roasts. My Dad has just passed away aged 94. and he had a high fat diet too. My mother died from T1D, but she used fat like there was no tomorrow. So I personally think it is modern life, modern processing, and transfats that are just as reponsible.

You haven't put me off LCHF yet.
 
Oldvatr said:
...................You haven't put me off LCHF yet.
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That would never be my intention.

The details on the MIT diet are sketchy, it appears the results were only published a few days ago, and as you say, the mice were fed to obesity, and without details, gained more weight than those on a normal diet. But without the details, that is meaningless in context.
But it also references a possible effect of the ketogenic process in itself, but again doesn't state whether the effect ('PPAR-delta also appears to turn on a set of genes that are important for stem cell identity') influences the genes in a positive, or negative way. So worth keeping an eye on for new developments, and hopefully a full paper to be released.
 
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