What is the HF in LCHF?

[Brunneria]

It is all nowledge I have from the famous dr. Fung and he´s statistics...

Then you need to mention that when you make these kind of statements. And you should be explaining what kind of fasting Dr Fung is talking about (because as I said above there are different types of fasting). So that your statements have a context.

Ideally, you could put in a link to the blog post or video, since people often want to check such claims for themselves.

I have read Fung's blog too, and he talks about many different kinds of intermittent fasting, which have different effects, and people are advised to try different ones until they find the one that works for them. So your statements do not really represent his theories.

 

[Freema]

Then you need to mention that when you make these kind of statements. And you should be explaining what kind of fasting Dr Fung is talking about (because as I said above there are different types of fasting). So that your statements have a context.

Ideally, you could put in a link to the blog post or video, since people often want to check such claims for themselves.

you are right about that... now I was sugesting it to a person aiming for ketosis and who already is on a lchf-diet, but you are right about that

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[Freema]

Dr. Jason Fung / diet doctor on how to get in ketosis ; https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto#optimal
............................................. :
How to achieve ketosis
There are many things that increase your level of ketosis. Here they are, from most to least important:

1. Restrict carbohydrates to 20 digestible grams per day or less – a strict low-carb diet. Fiber does not have to be restricted, it might even be beneficial
   Fiber is digested by bacteria in the colon, and some of it is transformed into a fat called medium-chain triglycerides. This fat can be absorbed by the body and is very effective at turning into ketones. Thus eating more fiber (but still very low carb) could result in higher ketone levels in the blood.
   
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2. Restrict protein to moderate levels. If possible stay at or below 1 gram of protein per day, per kg of body weight. So about 70 grams of protein per day if you weigh 70 kilos (154 pounds). It might be beneficial to lower protein intake even more, especially when overweight, and then aim for 1 gram of protein per kg of desired weight. The most common mistake that stops people from reaching optimal ketosis is too much protein.
3. Eat enough fat to feel satisfied. This is the big difference between a ketogenic diet and starvation, that also results in ketosis. A ketogenic diet is sustainable, starvation is not.
4. Avoid snacking when not hungry. Unnecessary snacking slows weight loss and reduces ketosis.
5. If necessary add intermittent fasting, like 16:8. This is very effective at boosting ketone levels, as well as accelerating weight loss and type 2 diabetes reversal.
6. Usually not necessary: Supplement MCT oil and/or Bulletproof coffee.
7. 
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Post edited by Mod to remove advertising links as per forum rules.

 

[Brunneria]

Thanks @Freema !

 

[Oldvatr]

1. Fiber is digested by bacteria in the colon, and some of it is transformed into a fat called medium-chain triglycerides. This fat can be absorbed by the body and is very effective at turning into ketones. Thus eating more fiber (but still very low carb) could result in higher ketone levels in the blood.

Hi @Freema
<<Fiber is digested by bacteria in the colon, and some of it is transformed into a fat called medium-chain triglycerides. This fat can be absorbed by the body and is very effective at turning into ketones. Thus eating more fiber (but still very low carb) could result in higher ketone levels in the blood.>>

Not sure where you got this from, but its not in any book or report I have read. Did you really mean Fat, rather than Fiber? That would make sense.
MCT's can be found in coconut oil and is the most readily digested fat /oil we can eat/
Edit: the original post I am repyling to has been edited, and my comments following have been left dangling I am now editing them to make more sense since there is an important message that still applies, even if it is not directly relevant any more
There are diets that provide ketone supplementation, one of which is the raspberry ketone diet. This diet was made popular by a reality TV star, but has been shown to be dangerous. It is not a good idea to over stimulate ketones in the blood since this needs very good kidney function to clear the waste products, other wise DKA can follow.
I would not recommend such a diet for diabetics, but if anyone is tempted, then please make sure you get a meter that measures ketone level in the blood since Ketostix are not accurate enough. Also get your GP to monitor regularly Normal dietary ketones are not a problem since it is very difficult to get over 4.0 mmol/l even with exercise [but dehydration can push the levels up]. DO NOT USE KETONE SUPPLEMENTS IF TAKING A MED THAT ENDS IN -FLOZIN

 

[Indy51]

<<Fiber is digested by bacteria in the colon, and some of it is transformed into a fat called medium-chain triglycerides.

I think this should read "short-chain fatty acids"?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735932/

I've heard some people say that gorillas, for example, are essentially eating a high fat diet because of their fibre intake.

 

[Oldvatr]

I think this should read "short-chain fatty acids"?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735932/

I've heard some people say that gorillas, for example, are essentially eating a high fat diet because of their fibre intake.

Fibre acts as a lubricant in the colon which helps the medicine go down as it were. There are also soluble fibres that we do digest but not sure what they metabolise into. They do not appear to have nutrition value, but help maintain good gut flora.

Excess fat gets passed into the bile duct, and also gets excreted into the lower colon to assist in lubrication as well as helping the gut flora. Think it is just a digestion thing.

 

[Indy51]

Fibre acts as a lubricant in the colon which helps the medicine go down as it were. There are also soluble fibres that we do digest but not sure what they metabolise into. They do not appear to have nutrition value, but help maintain good gut flora.

Excess fat gets passed into the bile duct, and also gets excreted into the lower colon to assist in lubrication as well as helping the gut flora. Think it is just a digestion thing.

Not according to that paper I quoted. The host gets energy from the SCFA's produced by the bacterial fermentation/digestion of fibre. In the case of humans the estimated daily energy uptake is ~10% of calories.

 

[Freema]

Fibre acts as a lubricant in the colon which helps the medicine go down as it were. There are also soluble fibres that we do digest but not sure what they metabolise into. They do not appear to have nutrition value, but help maintain good gut flora.

Excess fat gets passed into the bile duct, and also gets excreted into the lower colon to assist in lubrication as well as helping the gut flora. Think it is just a digestion thing.

I have it from the link just above the written... from diet doctor and Dr.Jason Fung who is a very famous and knowing kidney doctor from Canada who also has done some science and who is in head of a lot of fasting regimes for both diabetic type 2 and very obese people with insuline resistence

 

[Oldvatr]

Not according to that paper I quoted. The host gets energy from the SCFA's produced by the bacterial fermentation/digestion of fibre. In the case of humans the estimated daily energy uptake is ~10% of calories.

The paper you quoted clearly states that it is a theoretical treatise and is a presentation of the authors interpretation of what MAY be going on in our gut. It is made clear that it is very much a 'work in progress' so the conclusions they offer are not set in concrete. It is forming the groundwork for further research.

I found a more readable article at
http://www.fao.org/docrep/w8079e/w8079e0l.htm
It says much the same things, but is easier to understand. I think one thing both papers gloss over is that most of the fermentation is of sugars and starches that get trapped in the fibre as it passes through the upper digestive tract, and which is extracted and broken down in the large bowel and colon. Certainly the synthesis of actyls and butyls require carbohydrate and acid to work, and fibre alone has little CHO content by itself. This is basic school chemistry..
Certainly nutritionists have noted that increased fibre has benefits for cholesterol and glycemic control, and we know the GI index appears to have its own validity. However, the -10% quoted in the first article is, I think, a figure plucked from the air rather than a true measure.

 

[Freema]

The paper you quoted clearly states that it is a theoretical treatise and is a presentation of the authors interpretation of what MAY be going on in our gut. It is made clear that it is very much a 'work in progress' so the conclusions they offer are not set in concrete. It is forming the groundwork for further research.

I found a more readable article at
http://www.fao.org/docrep/w8079e/w8079e0l.htm
It says much the same things, but is easier to understand. I think one thing both papers gloss over is that most of the fermentation is of sugars and starches that get trapped in the fibre as it passes through thr upper digestive tract, and which is extracted and broken down in the large bowel and colon. Certsinly the synthesis of actyls and butyls require carbohydtrate and acid to work, and fibre alone has little CHO content by itself. This is basic school chenistry..
Certainly nutritionists have noted that increased fibre has benefits for cholesterol and glycemic control, and we know the GI index appears to have its own validity. However, the -10% quoted in the first article is, I think, a figure plucked from the air rather than a true measure.

You are probably right I have no chance to tell

 

[Oldvatr]

You are probably right I have no chance to tell

I don't think there is anyone who has the answers yet. Even the article I found has things in it that last years published studies seem to disagree with so it is still a heaving quicksand. All we can do is read these articles, apply our knowledge and experience to it, and then decide if it gives us the confidence to make any changes in our lives. If we find it works for us, then maybe we decide to share it with others, such as on this forum. I am by no means an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I do have a questioning mind and a good bulls**t detector.

 

[Freema]

I don't think there is anyone who has the answers yet. Even the article I found has things in it that last years published studies seem to disagree with so it is still a heaving quicksand. All we can do is read these articles, apply our knowledge and experience to it, and then decide if it gives us the confidence to make any changes in our lives. If we find it works for us, then maybe we decide to share it with others, such as on this forum. I am by no means an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I do have a questioning mind and a good bulls**t detector.

no
most new theories are but guesswork , maybe qualified guesswork
as are even some of the claims of in what ways metformin works..., but what can we but try to rely on the best of experts in the field of our kind of illness... after all there is still no cure for diabetes and even the lchf-diet has yet to be proven effective in preventing people from dying from cardiovascular deseases... we here know that it can get blood glucose down but if our type 2 is rather an insuline kind of poisoning; is it then enough just to get the glucose down....?

I am happy that any intelligent doctor in this field tryes to think out of the box and go for solving the riddle as more and more people have their lives complicated, shortened and sometimes to an awfull extend of suffering for decades...

 

[Oldvatr]

.. we here know that it can get blood glucose down but if our type 2 is rather a insuline kind of poisoning is it then enough just to get the glucose down....?

Indeed, IMHO it is especially relevant to those with insulin resistance. By reducing carbs, the diet reduces the triggers that increase insulin in response to a meal (Amylase enzyme) and so the body needs less insulin and this I believe leads to improvements in reducing the bad effects of excess insulin. The LCHF diet is basically the Banting diet that was first published in 1863, and was a prime treatment for diabetics and epileptics before insulin was discovered by his brother. The diet is not new, but was modernised by Professor Noakes recently. It is a popular diet in Sweden. It has had quite extensive scientific study carried out on it in Ireland, South Africa and Australia, but has met with resistance in the UK.

P.S. William Banting based his diet on ideas put forward by the eminent heart specialist William Harvey who was the first to properly chart the circulation process in the body and is the inspiration of cardiovascular specialists worldwide.

 

[btalvin]

I am sorry it's taking me a little time through the web site.

 

[Freema]

Indeed, IMHO it is especially relevant to those with insulin resistance. By reducing carbs, the diet reduces the triggers that increase insulin in response to a meal (Amylase enzyme) and so the body needs less insulin and this I believe leads to improvements in reducing the bad effects of excess insulin. The LCHF diet is basically the Banting diet that was first published in 1863, and was a prime treatment for diabetics and epileptics before insulin was discovered by his brother. The diet is not new, but was modernised by Professor Noakes recently. It is a popular diet in Sweden. It has had quite extensive scientific study carried out on it in Ireland, South Africa and Australia, but has met with resistance in the UK.

P.S. William Banting based his diet on ideas put forward by the eminent heart specialist William Harvey who was the first to properly chart the circulation process in the body and is the inspiration of cardiovascular specialists worldwide.

yes lchf.diet was the only way to try to treat diabetes type 2 and 1 by doctors at that time but combined with calorie-restriction as I know about it... so also low amounts of calories was part of the try to keep diabetes 2 under control..

according to Jason Fung fasting is the best way to get excessive insuline levels lowered... and he has done some research that shows that day 3 of fasting on only 500 calories the insulin level is about 60% down from the previous level... it is under the kind of fasting called 16-8 ... as I have understood him this is the fastest and most effective way to get insuline down... I guess compared to the lchf-diet in general...

Jason Fung also speculates that it is maybe the other way around; that people get fat because of the unnormal level of insulin, and not because they eat carbs in too high levels... .. that the insuline problem came first ... but then the question is still ; what caused the insulin to get this alarming high level in the first place...

 

[George_Henderson]

I think a very simple explanation of the energy question is that fat and glucose are in competition to supply energy, like (occasional) trains and (fairly constant) cars compete to use level crossings, and insulin is like the crossing control and barrier arms that always stops fat (cars) and lets glucose (trains) be used when you eat a meal..
In diabetes this control is defective and the train and car can be on the crossing at the same time; that is, stored fat is still available when glucose is eaten, so BG goes higher. But if you don't eat much glucose, the fat gets burnt and doesn't push up the BG. You might do this losing weight and burning stored fat, or eating more fat and staying the same weight.
Basically stopping most train traffic so that defective crossings are less dangerous and can be fixed (which is what usually tends to happen, to a greater or lesser extent) and cars (fat) can move freely.

I hope this analogy isn't too confusing.

As to nutrition, every whole food contains the nutrients that are essential to create and use the energy in it, more or less. Animal foods (if you eat nose to tail) actually contain anything the animal needs, and its needs are very similar to ours. Plants supply extra of a few things humans need more of, like vitamin C - grains are not a source of vitamin C.