Prediabetes Where am I going wrong please

Birdwoman · Mar 10, 2018

Hi. I know we have a load of experts on here, so please can anyone help me? I was told by my doctor last August that I was just about pre-diabetes which is when I joined this forum. I went LCHF and was very successful with it, after 3 months I was down to 78 (4.3) during the day and the mornings were between 92 & 95 (5.2) and lost 10Kilos. I still needed to get further down so continued - no bread, rice, potatoes, pasta, in fact nothing containing ordinary flour. This was fine until about 3 weeks ago - I was 93 (5.3) in the morning and 78 (4.3) before meals and after 2 hours was back to about the same sometimes lower than before I ate: having eaten the same all day, the next morning I was 121 (6.8). Still eating the same as before I am still 120 (6.7) every morning, even in the days it does not go down below 95 (5.3). I eat for breakfast a couple of desert spoonfuls of Greek yogurt with cream added. For lunch always eggs, either 2 boiled with butter in or an omelet with tomato or cabbage or mushrooms in or sometimes all in it and of course cooked in good helping of butter and an evening meal just meat or fish with veg, again cooked in butter or coconut oil. I have not lost anymore weight, would like to lose another 5 kilos.

I had a blood test just over a week ago and my 3 month average was 34. All the other results were good too, just had a high uric acid which I have some tablets for (as from today) and also I have been drinking green tea and had a few berries with my yogurt some mornings. Please help as to why my BG and FBG is so high.
Thanks
Jan

Boo1979 · Mar 10, 2018

All of your readings are good, so youre not going wrong!
Fasting blood sugars are often higher that the rest of the day and is a result of a process that occurs in everybody - diabetic or not - this is the dawn phenomenon
https://idmprogram.com/dawn-phenomenon-t2d-8/

bulkbiker · Mar 10, 2018

Birdwoman said:
Hi. I know we have a load of experts on here, so please can anyone help me? I was told by my doctor last August that I was just about pre-diabetes which is when I joined this forum. I went LCHF and was very successful with it, after 3 months I was down to 78 (4.3) during the day and the mornings were between 92 & 95 (5.2) and lost 10Kilos. I still needed to get further down so continued - no bread, rice, potatoes, pasta, in fact nothing containing ordinary flour. This was fine until about 3 weeks ago - I was 93 (5.3) in the morning and 78 (4.3) before meals and after 2 hours was back to about the same sometimes lower than before I ate: having eaten the same all day, the next morning I was 121 (6.8). Still eating the same as before I am still 120 (6.7) every morning, even in the days it does not go down below 95 (5.3). I eat for breakfast a couple of desert spoonfuls of Greek yogurt with cream added. For lunch always eggs, either 2 boiled with butter in or an omelet with tomato or cabbage or mushrooms in or sometimes all in it and of course cooked in good helping of butter and an evening meal just meat or fish with veg, again cooked in butter or coconut oil. I have not lost anymore weight, would like to lose another 5 kilos.

I had a blood test just over a week ago and my 3 month average was 34. All the other results were good too, just had a high uric acid which I have some tablets for (as from today) and also I have been drinking green tea and had a few berries with my yogurt some mornings. Please help as to why my BG and FBG is so high.
Thanks
Jan

Sounds like you aren't going wrong anywhere.. if your last HbA1c was 34 mmol/m then you have "normal" non diabetic levels. Well done. What levels are you expecting? Your dawn phenomenon may have re emerged (as has mine a bit) but I don;t think its anything to worry about and may even be a sign of a return to a more "normal" metabolism.

Bluetit1802 · Mar 10, 2018

There is something called physiological insulin resistance. This is not the same as diabetes-related insulin resistance. It can happen when the body detects there is insufficient glucose in the system for the brain, so it goes into "glucose sparing" mode. This means basically that the cells in the body start to reject the glucose so it can be sent to the brain. In the absence of carbs, the glucose will be low, so this can trigger this physiological insulin resistance, and it normally affects base-line readings. It happened to me, exactly as you describe, about 2 or 3 years ago.

It is normally temporary, so you can ride it out for a while. The other way to rid yourself of it is to increase your carbs for a few days, then return to low carb. I just rode it out and it went away on its own, but it took a month or two.

Bluetit1802 · Mar 10, 2018

To add to my above post, a couple of links
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/physiological-insulin-resistance.html
http://ketopia.com/physiological-insulin-resistance/

Guzzler · Mar 10, 2018

Bluetit1802 said:
To add to my above post, a couple of links
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.co.uk/2007/10/physiological-insulin-resistance.html
http://ketopia.com/physiological-insulin-resistance/

This PIR has me baffled. The brain runs quite happily on ketones so does PIR happen when glucose is low as well as ketones? What am I missing?

Bluetit1802 · Mar 10, 2018

Guzzler said:
This PIR has me baffled. The brain runs quite happily on ketones so does PIR happen when glucose is low as well as ketones? What am I missing?

Guzzler · Mar 10, 2018

Bluetit1802 said:
Pass.

Some more links.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2007/10/physiological-insulin-resistance.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/05/physiological-insulin-resistance-2-dawn.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/08/physiological-insulin-resistance.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/physiological-insulin-resistance.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/physiological-insulin-resistance-wild.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/terminator.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/physiological-insulin-resistance-and.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/physiological-insulin-restisance-guess.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/chewing-fat.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/physiological-insulin-resistance.html

And a couple of posts from Mark Sisson of Mark's Daily Apple:

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/do-low-carb-diets-cause-insulin-resistance/
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-eating-low-carb-cause-insulin-resistance/

Thanks, lass. I'll go get a cuppa and put my thinking hat on.

Birdwoman · Mar 10, 2018

Hi. Thanks for all your help! I understand the dawn phenomenon and this has gone up and down in the past and I can often say - Oh I eat this or that but what worried me was the fact the levels did not go down much during the day, they were still high at 95 (5.2) even when I had not eaten for 4 hours+.

Bluetit Thank you for your post, it is interesting you had similar to me. Please can you tell me did your BG stay high during the day too?

Thanks to you all. You have all made me feel better as I thought I had gone back to square 1 again and did not understand why. Hopefully my body has done as Bluetit's did and will sort it self out again soon. I have some cinnamon bread in the freezer which I love, it is getting more tempting to have just 1 slice toasted with lots of butter!!! Or would this send my BG right up?

Thank you all for your help in making me feel better.
Jan

Guzzler · Mar 10, 2018

Bluetit1802 said:
Pass.

Some more links.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2007/10/physiological-insulin-resistance.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/05/physiological-insulin-resistance-2-dawn.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/08/physiological-insulin-resistance.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/physiological-insulin-resistance.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/physiological-insulin-resistance-wild.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/terminator.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/physiological-insulin-resistance-and.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/physiological-insulin-restisance-guess.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2009/09/chewing-fat.html
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/physiological-insulin-resistance.html

And a couple of posts from Mark Sisson of Mark's Daily Apple:

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/do-low-carb-diets-cause-insulin-resistance/
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-eating-low-carb-cause-insulin-resistance/

The question was answered in your first link. PIR doesnt really affect the brain, more the muscles because muscles are quite happy to run on fats leaving glucose plus ketones (though ketones arn't mentioned here) for the brain and this would be logical being that the brain is rather an important organ. And all before I finished my cuppa!

Bluetit1802 · Mar 10, 2018

Birdwoman said:
Hi. Thanks for all your help! I understand the dawn phenomenon and this has gone up and down in the past and I can often say - Oh I eat this or that but what worried me was the fact the levels did not go down much during the day, they were still high at 95 (5.2) even when I had not eaten for 4 hours+.

Bluetit Thank you for your post, it is interesting you had similar to me. Please can you tell me did your BG stay high during the day too?

Thanks to you all. You have all made me feel better as I thought I had gone back to square 1 again and did not understand why. Hopefully my body has done as Bluetit's did and will sort it self out again soon. I have some cinnamon bread in the freezer which I love, it is getting more tempting to have just 1 slice toasted with lots of butter!!! Or would this send my BG right up?

Thank you all for your help in making me feel better.
Jan

Why do you think 5.2 is high, even after 4+ hours? I call that low and perfect.

All my fasting and pre-meal levels were higher, but not significantly, just noticeably - maybe half a mmol/l or a tad more. I lost all the 4s I'd been seeing.

Birdwoman · Mar 10, 2018

To add to my post - I started writing before the last 2 posts were added (sorry had a phone call) and had seen all the links added and Guzzler's post. Will read more links.

Thanks Jan

Bluetit1802 · Mar 10, 2018

Guzzler said:
The question was answered in your first link. PIR doesnt really affect the brain, more the muscles because muscles are quite happy to run on fats leaving glucose plus ketones (though ketones arn't mentioned here) for the brain and this would be logical being that the brain is rather an important organ. And all before I finished my cuppa!

I have also read among all the gumph somewhere that our red blood cells need glucose. I can't recall where I read it.

Birdwoman · Mar 10, 2018

Bluetit1802 said:
Why do you think 5.2 is high, even after 4+ hours? I call that low and perfect.

All my fasting and pre-meal levels were higher, but not significantly, just noticeably - maybe half a mmol/l or a tad more. I lost all the 4s I'd been seeing.

I suppose because I have been used to seeing the 78 (4.3) in the day time and before my evening meal, sometimes 2 hours after my meal it would be even lower like 74 (4.2) and to now have 95 (5.2) before an evening meal seems wrong.
Jan

Guzzler · Mar 10, 2018

Bluetit1802 said:
I have also read among all the gumph somewhere that our red blood cells need glucose. I can't recall where I read it.

Sounds logical, the mitochondria in rbc is the little power house after all.

Bluetit1802 · Mar 10, 2018

Birdwoman said:
I suppose because I have been used to seeing the 78 (4.3) in the day time and before my evening meal, sometimes 2 hours after my meal it would be even lower like 74 (4.2) and to now have 95 (5.2) before an evening meal seems wrong.
Jan

I see what you mean. So what was your last HbA1c?

Guzzler · Mar 10, 2018

Birdwoman said:
I suppose because I have been used to seeing the 78 (4.3) in the day time and before my evening meal, sometimes 2 hours after my meal it would be even lower like 74 (4.2) and to now have 95 (5.2) before an evening meal seems wrong.
Jan

Great to see that you are noting patterns, this is why it is important to keep records.

Birdwoman · Mar 10, 2018

Bluetit1802 said:
I see what you mean. So what was your last HbA1c?

My last HbA1c was just over a week ago and was 34.

Mike d · Mar 10, 2018

I know people who'd kill for that score

Birdwoman · Mar 11, 2018

Guzzler said:
Great to see that you are noting patterns, this is why it is important to keep records.

It's not much good though if I then don't know what it means?

Prediabetes Where am I going wrong please

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