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Wholemeal Rye Sourdough result...

Discussion in 'Food, Nutrition and Recipes' started by mymuk, May 21, 2020.

  1. mymuk

    mymuk Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    (I posted this in the Type 2 forum but think it should have been here)

    Hello all, new person here (though reading from the shadows for a while).

    One of the things I've been a little unsettled by since T2 diagnosis in March (HbA1c of 81) was what to do about my long-term habit of making my own bread (and eating a lot of it).

    I didn't really do much in the next couple of months (other than take my twice a day Metformin) and wasn't paying much attention to what I was eating, just sort-of cutting down on anything too carby, though still eating plenty of bread. Then I had a (covid delayed) follow up and the blood test still showed HbA1c at 70 on 23 April, so as so many people do, I started to pay attention and got a meter (Tee2).

    The Tee2 arrived the same day as a lockdown delivery of a 32kg sack of wholemeal and two 16kg sacks of strong white... timing eh?

    It quickly became clear that white bread is a no-no. Even when sourdough it can provoke spikes of 2.5.

    So the hunt started for things I can eat without overly spiking blood glucose. Wholemeal Sourdough was better, and brought the spike under or around 2.0 - but research here and elsewhere suggested Rye was worth a try.

    Anyway, I do have good recipe/method for a 100% Rye that I've used in the past so I decided to test it. It takes about 36 hours & involves 500g wholemeal rye flour and 40g honey. I calculate that (accurately I hope) as, per loaf:

    Calories 1641
    Total Carbs 353g
    Net Carbs 285g
    Fiber 68g
    Sugar 41g
    Protein 39g
    Fat 9g

    I ended up with a 770g loaf and tried it out yesterday.

    Lunch involving 30g carbs (26g of which from 70g of the bread).
    That produced a two hour rise 5.9 > 7.3.

    Dinner, after a 3 mile walk, was a 21g carb plate of assorted tasty things, pic attached, 15g from 40g of the loaf).
    That produced a two hour rise 5.6 > 6.7.

    this morning, as of 10am my fasting level is 6.1.

    Am I right in thinking that's really not bad at all? Obviously I can drop (or eliminate) the honey to improve things even more.
     

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  2. xfieldok

    xfieldok Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    If you can keep your numbers after eating within 2, you may be happy with that, however is your hba1c reducing?

    Now you have your meter, download the mysugr app and record your numbers and food. After a few days it will give you an estimated hba1c. You can keep an eye on how it's trending.

    I keep my carbs under 20 per day.

    The thought of a warm crusty just baked loaf, loaded with butter is almost too much to bear :)
     
  3. mymuk

    mymuk Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Next HbA1c is middle of next month. My current average reading in the 2 weeks since I started testing is 6.3 - which I think equates to 38? Such a quick turnaround sounds unlikely though?

    This last 6 days when I've actually been carb counting it's averaged 6.1. I've been applying an upper limit of 70g carbs whilst I get used to stuff (actual intake 28, 37, 44, 65, 70, 65 the last three being bread testing.
     
    #3 mymuk, May 22, 2020 at 1:00 AM
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
  4. xfieldok

    xfieldok Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I look forward to seeing your results. It is possible to get your numbers down to 38 but you have to remain vigilant.
     
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  5. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

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    mymuk - Those numbers don't look too worrying at all.

    Once piece of caution I would introduce would be not to be too focused on the HbA1c your meter is predicting, as it is merely capturing a series of snapshots of your blood glucose at any one time. Whilst the 2 hour mark is a decent benchmark, some food will cause blood glucose peaks before 2 hours, and some later. In some cases - particularly where there is a good proportion of fat involved, it can be quite a while after the 2 hour mark.

    Please don't think I am posting this to rain on your BBQ. I'm not, but just adding a word of caution to these readings and predictions.

    My A1cs are usually very good, and I have been in remission for over 6 years now (I only had one single A1c reading in the diabetes range), but my finger prick tests always predict a much lower HbA1c than the formal test returns.

    I now accept that, and mentally just add a margin to what I see on my meter prediction, so that I'm not crestfallen when the formal results come in.

    Best of luck next month. Our fingers will be crossed for you.
     
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  6. mymuk

    mymuk Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I have no particular expectations anyway. I'm mainly curious to see the effects :)
     
  7. Resurgam

    Resurgam Type 2 (in remission!) · Expert

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    If you get hold of some wheat gluten you should be able to reduce the carb count of the bread. I add milled seeds from Lidl, and also psyllium flour, almond and cocoanut flour, and half a teaspoon of sugar for the yeast. I use rye flour and some white as I have lots to use up.
    Now that I have the wheat gluten need to do more experiments. I was intending to use muffin tins for the bread, as I like the crust.
     
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  8. catinahat

    catinahat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    To see how your delicious sounding bread is affecting your levels I think you need more tests.
    Your 7.3 result 2hr after a 30g carb lunch seems not too bad but was that 7.3 on the way down or still rising.
    I know this would be tough on your fingers but to really understand what your bread is doing to your blood sugar, testing at 1hr and then 30min intervals until you are back close to your starting level you would see how high the peak was and how long it took for your levels to come down. The 2hr test is ok as a general rule of thumb but it can't give a complete picture of how you react to certain foods
     
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  9. mymuk

    mymuk Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Worth bearing in mind, thanks.

    I'm not convinced of the value/validity of individual test results (as opposed to trends) though.

    Take today: 5.3 before breakfast after a 15 hour fast, missed out on the after breakfast one but it was 6.2 four and a half hours later just before a rather relaxed lunch (37g of carbs, mostly leeks and Rye bread) - then two hours later down at 6.1!
    I immediately did another on the same finger. 5.4.
    Then the other hand. 6.3.

    I wonder if anyone hires out Libres...
     
  10. mymuk

    mymuk Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Just to follow up on this: made several more since (omitting the honey) and - eating very thin 15-20g slices, to go with cheese etc a couple of times a day- it seems to not spike me any more than the vegetable-type carbs I still eat. Which is good news!

    Incidentally, a good, slow fermented 100% rye bread goes very well with whisky...
     
  11. mymuk

    mymuk Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Here is the recipe I have settled on for now. It's no-knead and very easy, you just need time and patience.

    1. Put 200g rye sourdough starter (mine is always 100% hydration, i.e. the same weight of water and rye flour in it) in a large bowl.

    2. Add 350g room temperature water.

    3. Mix and leave for an hour or two.

    4. Add 400g wholemeal rye (or "Dark" as it is often called) and 10g salt and mix to a wet dough.

    5. Cover and leave for 2 hours.

    6. Tip into a well greased and lined tin (it's very sticky and likes to stick to a tin when baked - I've been using a cake tin with easy release sides to help with this.) and with wet fingers lightly press to even out into the shape chosen.

    7. (Optional) Generously sprinkle the top with seeds of choice, this adds even more flavour and also prevents the top of the dough sticking to the cling film if it rises to touch it).

    8. Leave for about 8-12 hours - it should noticeably rise up the tin, though won't rise as much as a wheat bread.

    9. Heat your oven to 240C (or as near as it will get), chuck in some water to create some steam and put in the tin, then turn down to 200C and bake for 20 minutes.

    10. After 20 minutes, release the loaf from the tin (as it's quite a dense bread I usually turn it over at this point so the base gets a good crisping) and continue to bake for 20 more minutes.

    11. Let it cool on a rack then weigh it.

    To calculate the carbs, etc divide the nutritional content of the 500g of Rye (plus any seeds, etc you added) by the weight of the cooled loaf

    Rye flour Net Carbs 253g
    (Total Carbs 320.5g minus Fibre 67.5g)
    Calories 1520
    Protein 39g


    e.g. today's loaf was 870g once cooled, so 29.2 carbs per 100g of bread.

    It has a strong crumb, so you can slice it very finely indeed, making it easy to control intake.
     
  12. Perminder1

    Perminder1 · Well-Known Member

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    Nice plate
     
  13. catinahat

    catinahat Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Your bread sounds delicious but personally I think the best thing to put with whiskey is another whiskey ;)
     
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  14. Beansprout

    Beansprout Type 2 · Member

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    I've been making rye bread lately too. (And then trying to not eat it... Well, maybe small pieces. :)

    I actually like recipes that take lots of kneading! It's a sickness.

    Here's a pic of a 50/50 rye/standard flour loaf I made last week. I need to have another go at 100% rye. My first attempt was super (super) dense.

    Thanks for the recipe share!
     

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  15. mymuk

    mymuk Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    No reason not to have another, but the combinations with food can be exquisite. I had a Deanston 12 this evening with a piece of manchego and it was just superb.
     
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  16. mymuk

    mymuk Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    48. Which is not a bad start - especially as it overlaps with the period before I started controlling carb intake. This is with pretty low levels of exercise too.
     
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