will diabetes type 2 worsen

[NewTD2]

While I was in the Philippines, I noticed a lot of people are eating 'Ampalaya' or Karela or Bitter Melon either stir-fried, in salads or as fresh juice added in water.

The vegetable is called an "insulin plant" because of it's strong blood glucose lowering properties.

Luckily we can easily purchase the vegetable in greengrocers / ethnic shops all over the UK.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4027280/

 

[Guzzler]

And yet the rate of T2 in Filippinos continues to rise "at an alarming rate" according to the article below.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214999615012643

 

[Oldvatr]

While I was in the Philippines, I noticed a lot of people are eating 'Ampalaya' or Karela or Bitter Melon either stir-fried, in salads or as fresh juice added in water.

The vegetable is called an "insulin plant" because of it's strong blood glucose lowering properties.

Luckily we can easily purchase the vegetable in greengrocers / ethnic shops all over the UK.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4027280/

Sorry @NewTD2 but that report reads like it was written by an undergraduate trying to earn his stripes and submit a thesis. It is full of pseudo science, and while reading it, it is very clear that the author has no idea at all as to why it may be effective, but is claiming cures for everything under the sun i.e. a miracle cure lies within........ It sucks.

I have used Bitter Melon myself for about a year as a supplement, and initially I thought it was helping to get good glucose control, but with a slight laxative sting in its tail. I did reduce my medication during that year, and yes, my insulin resistance does seem to have become less of a problem, and I can now tolerate a higher carb intake.

So I decided to see if I still needed it to keep my bgl levels down by stopping it cold turkey. I found my bgl did rise by about 0,1 mmol/l. but has settled back down, and since giving it up, my bgl daily averages before were 6.7 mmol/l. and are now 6.6 mmol/l. and this is after reducing my Metformin as well. I am actually eating more carby meals now than I was, so my diet has actually worsened over the last 6 months, but my Hba1c last week was 42, so my meters are not lying.

So I can happily save my moolah for other things, since it does not significantly justify any further investment by me. It may be that in the early days, it did help repair my NAFLD or restore beta cell function, but then again my LC diet is also doing that more cheaply. I would use this extract again, and will certainly support some proper research into it, but I am afraid that report did not do it for me, It is still hearsay and anecdotal at the moment IMHO

 

[NewTD2]

Sorry @NewTD2 but that report reads like it was written by an undergraduate trying to earn his stripes and submit a thesis. It is full of pseudo science, and while reading it, it is very clear that the author has no idea at all as to why it may be effective, but is claiming cures for everything under the sun i.e. a miracle cure lies within........ It sucks.

I have used Bitter Melon myself for about a year as a supplement, and initially I thought it was helping to get good glucose control, but with a slight laxative sting in its tail. I did reduce my medication during that year, and yes, my insulin resistance does seem to have become less of a problem, and I can now tolerate a higher carb intake.

So I decided to see if I still needed it to keep my bgl levels down by stopping it cold turkey. I found my bgl did rise by about 0,1 mmol/l. but has settled back down, and since giving it up, my bgl daily averages before were 6.7 mmol/l. and are now 6.6 mmol/l. and this is after reducing my Metformin as well. I am actually eating more carby meals now than I was, so my diet has actually worsened over the last 6 months, but my Hba1c last week was 42, so my meters are not lying.

So I can happily save my moolah for other things, since it does not significantly justify any further investment by me. It may be that in the early days, it did help repair my NAFLD or restore beta cell function, but then again my LC diet is also doing that more cheaply. I would use this extract again, and will certainly support some proper research into it, but I am afraid that report did not do it for me, It is still hearsay and anecdotal at the moment IMHO

I suggest eat it fresh then it may help restore your beta cells much faster.

Good luck!

 

[Oldvatr]

I suggest eat it fresh then it may help restore your beta cells much faster.

Good luck!

Although there are claims being made that this plant restores beta cell function, no one has so far demonstrated this as a repeatable result, so it is misleading to promote that aspect without expressing this caution, The claims that it replaces exogenic insulin treatment in T1D is dangerous, which is why that report is so wrong. I have not seen ANY study that affirms this as being suitable for T1D or even insulin dependant T2D, so please be careful when suggesting this supplement, especially on an open forum where newly diagnosed members will be reading this.

 

[NewTD2]

Although there are claims being made that this plant restores beta cell function, no one has so far demonstrated this as a repeatable result, so it is misleading to promote that aspect without expressing this caution, The claims that it replaces exogenic insulin treatment in T1D is dangerous, which is why that report is so wrong. I have not seen ANY study that affirms this as being suitable for T1D or even insulin dependant T2D, so please be careful when suggesting this supplement, especially on an open forum where newly diagnosed members will be reading this.

I don’t need to be careful about anything neither implying that this supplement should replace insulin or any medication for T1s and T2s. I never said that.

You’ve totally misunderstood the medical research.

Taking supplements is a personal choice which should be consulted with your doctor.

We are all different. And what works for one person may not necessarily work for another.

 

[Oldvatr]

I don’t need to be careful about anything neither implying that this supplement should replace insulin or any medication for T1s and T2s. I never said that.

You’ve totally misunderstood the medical research.

Taking supplements is a personal choice which should be consulted with your doctor.

We are all different. And what works for one person may not necessarily work for another.

And you misunderstood what I wrote. The report you included in your post is an official archive study report, and within that report there are the claims for T1D insulin replacement. It is clear that my response was saying that the report was wrong in this aspect, and hence could be misinterpreted especially by inexperienced readers of this forum who are not looking at it from the medical research perspective, but in terms of what it promises for them personally.

I agree you did not make the claim yourself, but nonetheless you do have a responsibility by sharing the link with us, as by implication it makes it seem a slam dunk bona fide breakthrough at first glance, and it is only when one reads the small print between the lines that one sees the mays, mights, and possibles that show it is a blog from the author dressed up as mutton. The pseudo science in it is mystification simply put in to make it seem to be an official evidence based study, which it most certainly isn't.

I agree with your last statement about it working for some, and not others, but we had a lengthy thread on this forum discussing this supplement, and although there were a couple of positives reported, the general reported outcome seemed to be negative, i.e. it was being reported as not working for anyone to any significant degree. The supplement is certainly used in the oriental countries for treating diabetes since before the discovery of insulin, but there is still no official recognition of it being a need to have, and it still languishes in the dark alternative medicine culture and is not a mainstream treatment at all. If the French Lily (aka Metformin) made the transition, then why not Bitter Melon? One has to ask why mainstream research has shown absolutely no serious interest in this plant.

Yes supplements are a personal journey for us all, but they tend to be expensive, and may also have side effects and interactions that are not always beneficial to the user. Because they are not supplied by mainstream sources, then they are private venture funded and come from generally uncontrolled sources that may be of dubious origin. Caveat Emptor.

It is so easy to post a link here, so I will add mine
https://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/bitter-melon

Edit to add: PS my GP hails from a country where Bitter Melon is indeed used widely in their alternative medicine and where it is also grown. He strongly advised me not to try it, and I went against his advice, After a year of use I am still alive and still diabetic. I am no longer using the product.

 

[millenium]

Most of these herbal alternative if they give some effects on improving blood glucose control should be by these two mechanisms. 1) they formed a gel in the stomach to reduce the stomach emptying and hence the slower the carb is absorbed (like lady finger, egg plant do the same) 2) they contains certain phytochemicals that are potent anti oxidants that preserve cells like those of livers, pancreas, and promote their repair and regeneration (like milk thistle).

 

[JohnEGreen]

Metformin is in a sense a herbal extract.

 

[Oldvatr]

Most of these herbal alternative if they give some effects on improving blood glucose control should be by these two mechanisms. 1) they formed a gel in the stomach to reduce the stomach emptying and hence the slower the carb is absorbed (like lady finger, egg plant do the same) 2) they contains certain phytochemicals that are potent anti oxidants that preserve cells like those of livers, pancreas, and promote their repair and regeneration (like milk thistle).

You state categorically that phytochemicals are potent antioxidents that preserve cells and promote repair and regeneration. I would tend to say potential instead, since these plant compounds are as yet unproven in their action and efficacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochemical
Whilst this claim about regeneration of beta cells has been ascribed to Bitter melon, it comes from health magazines or fitness magazines rather than proper scientific evidence. i,e, the source of these claims is conjecture at the moment. My experiment with Bitter Melon does not prove it either way, since there are other possible pathways to my improved insulin response namely my changes to diet which I suspect swamps any effect that BM would give.

 

[millenium]

You state categorically that phytochemicals are potent antioxidents that preserve cells and promote repair and regeneration. I would tend to say potential instead, since these plant compounds are as yet unproven in their action and efficacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochemical
Whilst this claim about regeneration of beta cells has been ascribed to Bitter melon, it comes from health magazines or fitness magazines rather than proper scientific evidence. i,e, the source of these claims is conjecture at the moment. My experiment with Bitter Melon does not prove it either way, since there are other possible pathways to my improved insulin response namely my changes to diet which I suspect swamps any effect that BM would give.

Based on some research papers, some phytochemicals seems potential for example lycopene and silymarin. Silymarin i am quite sure there is some peer reviewed papers showing it helps liver and beta cells regeneration. I will put the links here when i have time later.

 

[Oldvatr]

Based on some research papers, some phytochemicals seems potential for example lycopene and silymarin. Silymarin i am quite sure there is some peer reviewed papers showing it helps liver and beta cells regeneration. I will put the links here when i have time later.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21466434

Milk thistle is showing benefit for treatment of liver conditions. No mention of any connection to diabetes or beta cells per se,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850026/
Found in tomatoes and pink grapefruit. Again no direct link to diabetes on this one either. Red grapes has another phytochemical that is also supposed to be of benefit, but only in moderation. Similar arguments can also be used to justify the use of cinnamon, turmeric, bluberries, green tea and a host of other alternative medicine remedies.

I think the use of #potential# still applies, but we are still on a learning curve on these. They form the basis for the claims being made for Superfoods in the health magazines, but sometimes those turn out to be just fads, so again, these reports are overview studies, and not actually conducting meaningful experiments themselves. Remains to be seen if they can isolate the phytos and conduct RCT trials on them with large and varied samples to put flesh on this subject matter, So far it is still observational studies on small populations, and therefore do not prove anything at the moment.

 

[millenium]

Metformin is in a sense a herbal extract.

Interesting. What herb contains active ingredients like it?

 

[millenium]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21466434

Milk thistle is showing benefit for treatment of liver conditions. No mention of any connection to diabetes or beta cells per se,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850026/
Found in tomatoes and pink grapefruit. Again no direct link to diabetes on this one either. Red grapes has another phytochemical that is also supposed to be of benefit, but only in moderation. Similar arguments can also be used to justify the use of cinnamon, turmeric, bluberries, green tea and a host of other alternative medicine remedies.

I think the use of #potential# still applies, but we are still on a learning curve on these. They form the basis for the claims being made for Superfoods in the health magazines, but sometimes those turn out to be just fads, so again, these reports are overview studies, and not actually conducting meaningful experiments themselves. Remains to be seen if they can isolate the phytos and conduct RCT trials on them with large and varied samples to put flesh on this subject matter, So far it is still observational studies on small populations, and therefore do not prove anything at the moment.

There is milk thistle study, i come across regarding beta cells regeneration in animal model. I think it reduce the accumulation of a toxic protein marker.

Another study that shows milk thistle extract three times a day improve fgl statistically was done in iran.

I will give the pubmed links later as i need to search a while.

 

[Oldvatr]

Interesting. What herb contains active ingredients like it?

Metformin is derived from the French Lilac, otherwise known as Glucophage or Goat's Rue. Ancient remedy used in folk medicine.

 

[millenium]

Metformin is derived from the French Lilac, otherwise known as Glucophage or Goat's Rue. Ancient remedy used in folk medicine.

How is it taken as a folk medicine? What part of the plant is taken and how to prepare it?

 

[Brunneria]

How is it taken as a folk medicine? What part of the plant is taken and how to prepare it?

If you google ‘natural alternative to metformin’ you will find that Berberine is frequently mentioned.

Berberine capsules are often listed as containing 2 or 3 different herbs, and advice is usually clear that Berberine and Metformin should not be taken together because their active ingredients stack (along with their side effects).

 

[millenium]

If you google ‘natural alternative to metformin’ you will find that Berberine is frequently mentioned.

Berberine capsules are often listed as containing 2 or 3 different herbs, and advice is usually clear that Berberine and Metformin should not be taken together because their active ingredients stack (along with their side effects).

What about french lilac?

 

[Brunneria]

What about french lilac?

google is your friend. And mine.

 

[JohnEGreen]

"
As a drug it was actually first synthesized in the 1920’s. However, it was quickly overshadowed by the Nobel prize-winning discovery of the role of insulin in the treatment of diabetes (see page 1). So metformin was swiftly set aside for half-acentury.

However, its history goes back much further…where it was known throughout Europe as a traditional folk medicine for centuries. That’s because this drug actually stems from a flowering plant called Galega officinalis, more commonly known as French lilac or goat’s rue. The active ingredient is a chemical biguanide known as Galegine, after the botanical name of the plant.

As an herbal extract, Galegine was used traditionally to treat people with polyuria (excessive urination due to excess sugar in the urine) and sweet odor on the breath. Today, we recognize these as two leading symptoms of untreated diabetes.

References date as far back as ancient Egypt and it was in common use in Medieval Europe. The herbal treatment was featured in an English medical treatise by Culpepper in the 17th century. And it was studied at the University of Edinburgh, a leading medical center of the 18th century from which the first medical school in America was established in 1765. It has also been used in Asia to treat influenza and is said to have antibiotic, antiviral, antimalarial, and antipyretic (fever) activities.

With such a long history as a potent herbal remedy, it’s actually shocking that it took so long to be used for a major modern medical problem like diabetes!

So after languishing during the Great Depression and World War II, the French finally developed Galegine, or metformin, for clinical use in 1957. It was approved the following year in the United Kingdom, and made its way to Canada in 1972. But it was not approved by the FDA in the United States until 1994. And that was only after a U.S. drug company (Bristol Myers Squibb) acquired a French firm that manufactured the drug."

https://drmicozzi.com/insiders-cures-subscribers/truth-about-metformin?