Will YOU ask your Dr for the 600 cal diet

NewdestinyX said:

Additionally the newest research tells us that the earlier you use insulin the more you have the opportunity to save your pancreas. But too many people still think of insulin as a last resort. That's unfortunate..

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That's interesting Grant. Do you have any links to that research?

borofergie said:

NewdestinyX said:

Additionally the newest research tells us that the earlier you use insulin the more you have the opportunity to save your pancreas. But too many people still think of insulin as a last resort. That's unfortunate..

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That's interesting Grant. Do you have any links to that research?

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Hi BF! I'm on the road right now. But just Google "Asian studies early insulin" and you'll get all the info you need on it.

How can early insulin help those of us that are insulin resistant? Insulin will cause weight gain, right? Making th eproblem worse...

Hi
I have no comment on this diet It looks similar to the Cambrige diet

I do have a comment on 600 cals per day, I have been on the Cambridge diet and it is very successful, however, you need to monitor ketones whilst on this type of diet or calorie regime you can get test strips from your doctor and you are making sure you do not go into ketoacidosis, it is very dangerous if you do.

thx

Kev

Patch said:

How can early insulin help those of us that are insulin resistant? Insulin will cause weight gain, right? Making th eproblem worse...

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Thats just not true Pat, I was insulin resistant and put straight on insulin but managed to lose 4 stone and in so doing was able to reduce my insulin resistance and come off insulin.

But and isnt there always a but I did have to diet very severely to both control my diabetes and lose the weight, so yes you will put on weight if you continue to eat like a non diabetic but with determination it can be done. Or at least it worked in my case, in fact I am glad I was put straight on insulin as it scared the life out of me and helped give me the motivation I needed to diet successfully

Patch said:

How can early insulin help those of us that are insulin resistant? Insulin will cause weight gain, right? Making th eproblem worse...

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Patch,
This is sadly one of the most widespread 'near myths' out there. Insulin resets your metabolism to 'normal' - so that if you overeat you will gain weight. Uncontrolled diabetes lulls us into thinking we gain weight very slowly - and can eat just about anything. That's the vicious cycle.

And the word 'insulin resistant' is poorly understood. When one is insulin resistant it doesn't mean the body 'resists all insulin' - the injected analog insulins get to your blood stream almost as effectively as the body's own and they get the job done quicker since you can exactly time their introduction to your system post a meal. A fatty pancreas is less predictable. No matter how IR you are the injected insulin will break through.

Though it pains me to say it I agree 100% with Sid here. His story and mine are nearly identical.

Fear insulin NOT!

Sid Bonkers said:

I was insulin resistant and put straight on insulin but managed to lose 4 stone and in so doing was able to reduce my insulin resistance and come off insulin.

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Sid, what was special about your diagnosis that they put you straight onto insulin and not just on metformin like the rest of us? I couldn't have been based on your HbA1c, because almost all of us have BG that is through the roof when we are diagnosed.

I'm not being nosey, it's just that you sound like a "common on garden variety T2" so it's interesting to know why some of us get different treatments. Maybe you just have a progressive GP.

Its a long story but to cut to the chase as it were...

Had a blood test and returned an Ac1 of 12.9% so doctor started me on 1 x metformin on a Friday, felt really awful over the weekend, not upset tummy due to met but felt just really ill, hot, cold, shakes, dizzy spells etc so on Monday I went back to the doctors who tested my blood pressure, or rather he tried to, three times actually but failed to get a reading at which point he rang the local A&E and they advised him to send me directly to them, do not pass go etc etc.

Arrived at A&E actually feeling fine and was surprised to be ushered straight into the triage nurse who took my blood pressure and immediately told me to lay on a stretcher and not move! I was then wheeled straight into the Resuscitation Unit and told I may have had a stroke and that I was suffering Supra Ventricular Tachycardia (SVT) which is best described as an out of sync heart beat where the right and left ventricles beat out of time with each other, I had a pulse of 188 bpm. Oh and my bg was 29. something or other.

They had to slow my heart down and get it to beat in rhythm again so they gave me a drug which temporarily stops the heart and then another shot immediately that starts it again, they said that it usually works :shock: but if it didnt they would have to de-fibrillate me.

Luckily it worked the second time round and I was then admitted for observation and was put on an insulin drip with half hourly and then hourly finger prick tests till my levels came down and the following morning a very nice specialist diabetes nurse came to see me and said that I was in such a state that insulin was the only alternative and that it had been my out of control bg levels that had caused my heart problems.

My wife works in the cardiac unit at the same hospital and the head cardio consultant kindly came to see me too and he was convinced that I had a heart problem so arranged various tests including an echo cardiogram and a 24 hour tape ecg, thankfully it tests revealed that I had not suffered a stroke and that thankfully my heart was reasonably fit for a man of my age.

And so that is briefly how I came to be put straight on insulin

Good grief Mr Bonkers..you don't do things by halves do you? :wink:

Glad you made it through to advise the good people here. How long were you on insulin for?

Blimmin heck Sid, that's a war story that is.

Referring to the point NewDestiny has raised about visceral fat/slim T2s. I'm been on Gliclazide for about a week and a half now - I was running blood sugars in the teens for last few weeks and a couple of mornings woke up with readings at 18 and 20 (and this was 6 days after finishing anti-biotics for a newly discovered fungal infection in my throat!)

So one day I felt very ill and naseaus all day and I skipped lunch (I'm not on any other meds bar B12/Complex supplements and a vit D daily) The GP sent me down to the hospital and I was tested and tested but they were scratching their heads and couldn't explain my readings. No Ketones (I never ever get Ketones and one doc said this is a sign I'm still producing insulin, my c-pep in the past showed norm range).

My sugars were 12 on admission (I hadn't eaten a thing for several hours at this point) then 15.7 midway through the night (4 hours after eating half an NHS sandwich) They called the Diabetes clinic where I normally attended to get advice and I got the usual comments about being an unsual case etc etc.

All of this pales in comparison with your story by the way!

Despite questioning the lovely doctor about why Gliclazide (he said he was given some complicated explanation that he didn't really understand! But it is quicker acting than Metaformin) I was put on 40mg and my reads dropped down to about the 11-14 mark but to be honest, it's not made the radical difference I was expecting. I assume they didn't bother with insulin as my sugars were not in the high 20s on?

I've added an extra Glic at night 3 days ago - so 80mg per day, and still it's not really budging my readings. I actually decided not to eat anything for 5 hours and I went from a morning fast read of 13.9 to just 8.2... RUBBISH! So the insulin is even more resistant?

My BMI is now 22.5 (I was 23) I've lost 18 pounds overall (over 10mths so not drastic or significant), and I've got leeway only to lose 7-8 more but then after that I will be classed as underweight....I've restricted carbs to 100-150/day and continue to exercise at least 3 times per week.

So I'm doing all I can but nothing's working. The Diabetologist did say last time insulin will be the inevitable course of action for me, I declined Gliclazide back then stating I'd put on weight, but I've since found out it's because extra unsused insulin in the body causes hunger pangs and if someone is not exercising or moderating their diet on Glic then they will gain weight. (I wonder if this is why typical T2s i.e insulin resistent so insulin in the body but not getting used up tend to gain weight so are classed overweight on diagnosis?).

I've got a horrid feeling they're going to up the Glic but my concern is why are they deliberately allowing my beta cells to become knackered on this drug? I've read that Glic does wear down beta cells over time...what is the point of this drug if that's the case? So this is where I'm thinking along NewDestiny's line that insulin should be introduced earlier especially in slim T2s or those who don't have excess internal body fat to help perserve the Pancreas. Infact, I'm now wondering how do they test for internal body fat anyway? I'm slim but not skinny (now 27.5inc waist but I do have a 'pooch' but my arms and legs are always skinny!

Any thoughts?

ladybird64 said:

Good grief Mr Bonkers..you don't do things by halves do you? :wink:

Glad you made it through to advise the good people here. How long were you on insulin for?

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In total I was on insulin for about 12 months but it was in the first 6 months that I managed to lose the weight and after that I was reducing the insulin little by little every few days until I was just using a couple of units per meal at which point 'Nursey' said I should stop using it altogether which freaked me out a little at first but it all worked out OK

Initially I was put on 10 units of Humulin I at night and 10 units of Humulin S with meals this increased to 12 units per injection before I started to slowly reduce it as my diet started to work and the weight came off.

Sanober said:

Despite questioning the lovely doctor about why Gliclazide (he said he was given some complicated explanation that he didn't really understand! But it is quicker acting than Metaformin) I was put on 40mg and my reads dropped down to about the 11-14 mark but to be honest, it's not made the radical difference I was expecting. I assume they didn't bother with insulin as my sugars were not in the high 20s on?

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The sad truth is, Sanober, that the medical professionals practice medicine 'defensively' these days to protect themselves against law suits. Insulin, when used 'incorrectly' has the potential for 'hypos' which can send your blood sugar 'too low' and potentially be dangerous. But the 'dangerous one' are SO rare as to be 'non existent' in the equation to a seasoned insulin taker -- or even a beginner for that matter. I've had only 'one semi serious' hypo in the entire time I've been on insulin. And I taken hundreds of injections of the stuff. So the doctors would rather give you meds like Glic/Glip, etc that kill the remaining beta cells you DO have. It's just 'sick' and 'immoral' in my opinion. Insulin is the 'diabetic's' drug. It's what WORKS. It gets RIGHT AT the root problem. As does Metformin. Great drug - just some people can't bear the side effects - like me.

So I'm doing all I can but nothing's working. The Diabetologist did say last time insulin will be the inevitable course of action for me, I declined Gliclazide back then stating I'd put on weight, but I've since found out it's because extra unsused insulin in the body causes hunger pangs and if someone is not exercising or moderating their diet on Glic then they will gain weight. (I wonder if this is why typical T2s i.e insulin resistent so insulin in the body but not getting used up tend to gain weight so are classed overweight on diagnosis?).

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You're in the 20% category of 'skinny T2's' (maybe MODY or T1.5) where nothing you do with your weight will affect your condition - really. The heart of diabetes (in all forms but T1) is a breakdown in the communication between the liver and pancreas. In 80% of the T2's it gets complicated very quickly by added weight around our middles. For those of us in this 80% group of T2's - losing the weight can, on a practical level, completely eradicate the symptoms of the underlying diabetes. There's no 'cure' for it - but losing the weight can allow your pancreas to 'take care' of your Bg levels well enough to support a low to moderate carb diet. I do not believe ANY T2 diabetic can return to their old eating patterns and stay ahead of the diabetes. But neither do I believe as many do here that you need to eat ultra lo carb the rest of your life. That is 'not' necessary at all if you're willing to lose a lot of weight AND/OR use some insulin therapy (insulin is 'not' a 'drug') in your regimen.

Infact, I'm now wondering how do they test for internal body fat anyway? I'm slim but not skinny (now 27.5inc waist but I do have a 'pooch' but my arms and legs are always skinny!

Any thoughts?

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I am not a medical professional - just very well studied on endocrinology and I do not believe that your situation is one where you need to focus on your weight as any main factor in control of the diabetes. I believe you will only achieve the results you want when you start insulin. It was a total 'game changer' for me. And it will be for you too. Insulin 'always' works. That's the beauty of it.

I did approach my GP to try get the Optifast on prescription as its only available in this country on prescription to start the 600 cal diet i took up all the information and reports from the Study He read them took them to another senior GP came back and said they have heard of the study but didnt know what the long term effects would be and therefore cutting a long story short refused to give me a prescription for it so I opted to do it off my own back and bought optislim. Its not the VLCD as optifast but LCD what i guess is the difference between the 2 are the calories and carbs VLCD being 150 cals and 15g Carbs and LCD 202 cals and 22g carbs also what ive noticed is the VLCD sachets are 40g against 50g sachets with the LCD products per sachet So my way of thinking is from the 50 g sachets only use 40g then you will have the VLCD so 10g from each sachet to collect to use later when you use 4 sachets giving you 5 in total Im going to start doing that with my remainder sachets and maybe buy another months supply to do this diet over 3 months and only use the 40gs from it save the other 10g for later to make up another 40g eventually therefore giving a true VLCD not LCD and making the sachets spread further

Does anyone know what the manufacturer's name is of Optifast or Optislim or similar low carb products? It is probably on the packet. I am asking because I am in Switzerland and the brand name is bound to be different or is not available here. Here, all these things are low calorie high carb so I thought I'd look on the internet. I don't intend to do the full diet, but would like to have it for breakfast plus some other meals from time to time.

Optifast is made by Nestle croydon Uk but only availble off the shelf in USA Australia and Newzealand maybe Canada only on prescription here in the UK .... Optislim is australian but have a UK office and its available online from optislim direct and at any LLyods Pharmacy shops online and inshop there is Optifast on ebay but very expensive optifast 800 is also on ebay listed as from the usa has lower cals and carbs compared to Optislim but optislim works out cheaper 99p a sachet at the moment from £1.79. But as i said they are 50g sachets only use 40g and you have the VLCD same as optifast and collect and save the other 10g and youll get another shake made from 4sachets youll get 5 shakes http://www.optislim.org.uk/

Thanks John for those details. I will try to get some.

hi iv been on a low calorie diet (800 calories a day ) now for 4 days and so far my surgars have come down and iv lost 6 pound :thumbup:

Medieval quackery - not even going there!

Dont think they had Optifast in medieval times :lol:
CAROL