Your thoughts on fructose

[Deleted member 532959]

It does. Fructose incrementally increases hepatic insulin resistance. It also blunts the actions of leptin. The former is likely to result in higher levels of circulating insulin required to deal with partitioning x amount of energy. The latter results in longer and more intense hunger. Both of these things are documented in humans. Alcohol has a very similar action.

But I suspect we won’t agree, which is fine. The thread is only asking for our thoughts after all.

All you've done is further detail to the mechanistic model, completely ignoring the idea of context and actual human outcomes.

We can know the various mechanisms that work from when a person puts their pound coin in a jackpot machine, to the eventual jackpot payout. The mechanisms are static, dependable and observable. That doesn't mean that everyone who puts a coin in the machine will win the jackpot. For that to happen, a certain combination of symbols needs to align (Let's say fruit, for a very apropos example).

What I am saying is that the both the mechanism you have offered and the eating of fructose not leading to fat-gain can co-exist. The mechanism may explain how fat (future energy) is stored, but what I'm trying to understand is whether you are suggesting that this mechanism causes fat-storage without energy excess. Put simply, are animals (to include Human animals) storing fat/energy for the future when there's not enough food/energy for now?

Also, it's not about agreeing or disagreeing. It should be about getting to a better understanding.

 

[Oldvatr]

]km nbn0

Can you give some examples of animals that eat completely differently in various seasons i.e only consume fructose in the late Summer.Autumn months?

The elephants in an equatoril African country that comsune the amarula fruit when it ripens. The fruit ferments in their stomach, and turns to alcohol. There ias a a cyclic easonal aspect to their binge drinking. I believe a similar fevent occurs with monkeys eating a similar fruit, but they eat rotting fruit. There is documentary foilm evidence of these events. There is also film evidence of animals eating fruits that only grow after the seasonal rains fall in the desert.

 

[Member496333]

The mechanism may explain how fat (future energy) is stored, but what I'm trying to understand is whether you are suggesting that this mechanism causes fat-storage without energy excess.

The energy excess is created by the temporary leptin resistance encouraging further eating.

 

[Deleted member 532959]

The energy excess is created by the temporary leptin resistance encouraging further eating.

"Encouraging" is an interesting word What if over-eating doesn't occur?

 

[bulkbiker]

Can you give some examples of animals that eat completely differently in various seasons i.e only consume fructose in the late Summer.Autumn months?

Bears

 

[Deleted member 532959]

Can you give some examples of animals that eat completely differently in various seasons i.e ONLY consume fructose in the late Summer.Autumn months?

 

[bulkbiker]

Fruit is seasonal where most bears live.

 

[Member496333]

What if over-eating doesn't occur?

If there is a shortage of available glucose (highly unlikely today) then some of the fructose will be turned into glucose, transported into the bloodstream and used as fuel. Otherwise it will be turned into fat inside the liver and contribute to hepatic insulin resistance. If we want to reduce this down to a CICO debate then another thread is probably the best place.

 

[Deleted member 532959]

If there is a shortage of available glucose (highly unlikely today) then some of the fructose will be turned into glucose, transported into the bloodstream and used as fuel. Otherwise it will be turned into fat inside the liver and contribute to hepatic insulin resistance. If we want to reduce this down to a CICO debate then another thread is probably the best place.

Are you suggesting that in the absence of sufficient calories/energy, today, that the body will store fat (future energy) due to fructose consumption?

 

[Deleted member 532959]

If there is a shortage of available glucose (highly unlikely today)

Also, just because glucose is ubiquitous in most societies in our modern world, doesn't mean that people eat it in excess of their requirements, or that it isn't in many cases self-limiting.

 

[Member496333]

Are you suggesting that in the absence of sufficient calories/energy, today, that the body will store fat (future energy) due to fructose consumption?

I’m saying if there is no requirement for glucose then fructose will be turned into fat in the liver. I’m done now. Can’t explain my thoughts on fructose any better than I already have. As someone with a history of type 2 diabetes I don’t personally want my liver storing fat. Others may feel different

 

[Oldvatr]

You are deliberately corrupting the original posting to fit your agenda

 

[Deleted member 532959]

You are deliberately corrupting the original posting to fit your agenda

I don’t have any agenda other than getting to the truth. In this case, the mechanism only tells us how the body might achieve fat/energy storage with regard to fructose. However, I’ve yet to be convinced that fructose, independent of excess energy consumption, leads to future energy storage.

My own real-world experience, and that of many others who have done/are doing the fruitarian thing, is that fructose (at least in whole fruit form) is self-limiting. I’d even suggest the same on ultra-refined form, assuming it is taken independently of other co-factors that make ultra-processed foods hyper-palatable ie fat and salt.

 

[Oldvatr]

Also, just because glucose is ubiquitous in most societies in our modern world, doesn't mean that people eat it in excess of their requirements, or that it isn't in many cases self-limiting.

In our modern low fat low sugar world we have created alternatives that are added to our foods. These alternatives are sugar isolates, sugar alcohols and tertiary sugar molecules. We are talking maltose, Dextrose and malitol.sorbitol etc. Since the only sugar we seem to excrete, is glucose then these molecules all get processed and used within our body in some way or another. They are the hidden sugars, and they are in plentiful supply now compared to our predecessors diets. Add in alcohol and plentiful supply of corn syrup and honey for example, and together with a general migration to the sofa, then this is a recipe for excess by stealth.

No one here is seriously putting forward that it is eating fruit or a high carb intake that is the problem, it is the combinations that can push the lipid button. our liver converts fructose into trigs which get stored as glycogen in the liver. When the liver is replenished, then ther is no more room and the liver then spits out lipids to be stored elsewhere in the adipocytes. When the adipocytes are full, they can for a while open up new storage from unprogrammed stem cells in areas not allocated for fat storage (i.e. the pancreas), but once created an adipocyte can only be renewed but not removed. Diet or exercise will empty these new lipid sacs, but they remain available for future use, which is why it is easy to regain fat after a diet.

 

[Oldvatr]

I don’t have any agenda other than getting to the truth. In this case, the mechanism only tells us how the body might achieve fat/energy storage with regard to fructose. However, I’ve yet to be convinced that fructose, independent of excess energy consumption, leads to future energy storage.

My own real-world experience, and that of many others who have done/are doing the fruitarian thing, is that fructose (at least in whole fruit form) is self-limiting. I’d even suggest the same on ultra-refined form, assuming it is taken independently of other co-factors that make ultra-processed foods hyper-palatable ie fat and salt.

It is quite clear that Fructose may not be the innocent bystander in that it does not directly add to the glucose blood sugars and so appeared to be inert. It is patently not inert.

I have seen posters here express their own personal choices. As a T2D I am mindful that my blood sugar levels can run high, and that is a trigger for the liver to fill and overflow, adding in frucrtose on top is a hidden and possibly harmful addition due to my glucose intolerance. We are also seeing NAFLD being a major component of our symptoms, and many of us would wish to limit the chances of making that worse.

 

[Deleted member 532959]

In our modern low fat low sugar world we have created alternatives that are added to our foods. These alternatives are sugar isolates, sugar alcohols and tertiary sugar molecules. We are talking maltose, Dextrose and malitol.sorbitol etc. Since the only sugar we seem to excrete, is glucose then these molecules all get processed and used within our body in some way or another. They are the hidden sugars, and they are in plentiful supply now compared to our predecessors diets. Add in alcohol and plentiful supply of corn syrup and honey for example, and together with a general migration to the sofa, then this is a recipe for excess by stealth.

It should be clear that I'm not advocating a diet full of sugar alcohols and HFCS as healthy, but I'm still curious to see some literature that tests isolated fructose in the context of caloric /energy deficit. Is your position that as a 113kg man, with an approximate TDEE of between 2500 and 3000 calories, I would gain weight and tons of hepatic fat on a 1000 calorie diet, consisting of sugar sandwiches and Coca-Cola?

No one here is seriously putting forward that it is eating fruit or a high carb intake that is the problem

Well, there's at least one person in this thread that thinks so. But I'd guess that probably the majority of this community believes it is (either or both fruit and high-carb), as does the majority of the wider low-carb community

it is the combinations that can push the lipid button. our liver converts fructose into trigs which get stored as glycogen in the liver. When the liver is replenished, then ther is no more room and the liver then spits out lipids to be stored elsewhere in the adipocytes. When the adipocytes are full, they can for a while open up new storage from unprogrammed stem cells in areas not allocated for fat storage (i.e. the pancreas), but once created an adipocyte can only be renewed but not removed. Diet or exercise will empty these new lipid sacs, but they remain available for future use, which is why it is easy to regain fat after a diet.

Well, there are other reasons why fat is easily regained after dieting, that likely have nothing to do with your above explanation

 

[Deleted member 532959]

It is quite clear that Fructose may not be the innocent bystander in that it does not directly add to the glucose blood sugars and so appeared to be inert. It is patently not inert.

I have seen posters here express their own personal choices. As a T2D I am mindful that my blood sugar levels can run high, and that is a trigger for the liver to fill and overflow, adding in frucrtose on top is a hidden and possibly harmful addition due to my glucose intolerance. We are also seeing NAFLD being a major component of our symptoms, and many of us would wish to limit the chances of making that worse.

Nothing wrong with wanting to minimise the chances of making something worse. But what I'm not seeing is a link between eating fruit and either weight-gain or NAFLD, independent of anergy excess and the wider context of a healthy diet. Pointing to a common scenario of people over-eating on junk and spending more time on the sofa is not the same conversation

 

[Oldvatr]

>>>>>But what I'm not seeing is a link between eating fruit and either weight-gain or NAFLD, independent of anergy excess and the wider context of a healthy diet. Pointing to a common scenario of people over-eating on junk and spending more time on the sofa is not the same conversation

Perhaps you need to do some more research. It is the same conversation and it is becoming increasingly common, I believe

Also this paper
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5893377/

And this one
https://aasldpubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/hep.26299

 

[Deleted member 532959]

Perhaps you need to do some more research. It is the same conversation and it is becoming increasingly common, I believe

Also this paper
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5893377/

And this one
https://aasldpubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/hep.26299

I've seen the first link before. There is nothing definitive or even remotely robust about the contents contained within, save for (I assume) the mechanisms. Furthermore, in linking to it (Not worth even looking at the 2nd), you are still demonstrating an inability to make the distinction between fructose in isolated form (or in ultra-form , as in HFCS) and that in a form presented by nature, and assuming that fructose in any form is responsible for weight-gain or NAFLD. Perhaps this quote from the first study may disabuse you of such fanciful notions:

Likewise, there is evidence that many substances found in natural fruits, such as the flavanols, epicatechin, vitamin C and other antioxidants may also protect against fructose-induced metabolic syndrome (58, 144, 145). This may explain why intake of natural fruits are not associated with NAFLD

Since first finding raw-veganism and fruitarianism nearly 2 decades ago, I've brushed virtual shoulders with 100's of people whose major source of calories comes from fruit. Many of these people eat upwards of 2-3000 calories of fruit, per-day. and while it's true that many are the more athletic type, that's certainly not the case for all of them. What is the case for pretty much all of them is a distinct lack of overweight or obesity. In fact, the only ones who appear to be overweight are those who are still on their weight-loss journey, and haven't yet reached goal-weight. Added to that, in all the blood-work I've seen shared online, over the years, not a single one (Nor that I can remember any of the high-carbers who also eat quite a lot of fruit) has shown any signs of liver issues.

 

[Oldvatr]

I've seen the first link before. There is nothing definitive or even remotely robust about the contents contained within, save for (I assume) the mechanisms. Furthermore, in linking to it (Not worth even looking at the 2nd), you are still demonstrating an inability to make the distinction between fructose in isolated form (or in ultra-form , as in HFCS) and that in a form presented by nature, and assuming that fructose in any form is responsible for weight-gain or NAFLD. Perhaps this quote from the first study may disabuse you of such fanciful notions:

Likewise, there is evidence that many substances found in natural fruits, such as the flavanols, epicatechin, vitamin C and other antioxidants may also protect against fructose-induced metabolic syndrome (58, 144, 145). This may explain why intake of natural fruits are not associated with NAFLD
Since first finding raw-veganism and fruitarianism nearly 2 decades ago, I've brushed virtual shoulders with 100's of people whose major source of calories comes from fruit. Many of these people eat upwards of 2-3000 calories of fruit, per-day. and while it's true that many are the more athletic type, that's certainly not the case for all of them. What is the case for pretty much all of them is a distinct lack of overweight or obesity. In fact, the only ones who appear to be overweight are those who are still on their weight-loss journey, and haven't yet reached goal-weight. Added to that, in all the blood-work I've seen shared online, over the years, not a single one (Nor that I can remember any of the high-carbers who also eat quite a lot of fruit) has shown any signs of liver issues.

NAFLD is not detectable by blood test until it has become NASH by which time it is getting too late to repair.