Reversing Type 2 diabetes

[zand]

Also @SueMG I asked on that thread why you are so sure that you will never become T2? Your statement seemed to imply that we are to blame for becoming diabetic.

 

[zand]

Maybe we all try to help each other, rather than simply trying to have fun taking potshots?

lol That's a great idea. You start huh?

 

[zand]

I have seen reports on HCLF being successful, I can't find the studies at the moment, but it does seem that cutting down on any food group has better results than the glut the is our normal diet.
It's also worthy of discussion, as we are very privileged to be able to choose what we consider as the best diet, indeed, what is actually an expensive diet, and also the fact it's easily available to us.

I have been unfortunate enough, (or fortunate) to see true poverty, and carbs, rice, is the only choice.
So, a carb diet has it's place, and if it can work, I'm happy to hear it out.
(I suspect it could indeed reverse diabetes with calorie reduction, as effectively, I did that by very low calorie rabbit food, as someone called it previously)

It isn't the cutting down on any one food group. It's making sure we don't have fats and carbs together. Yes HCLF works, but it's hard to gauge how much fat we need individually, whereas we don't need any carbs so LCHF is much easier to get right. I also doubt that many T2's could manage the amount of wholegrains advocated with HC anyway.

 

[Welshman1952]

OK, I think I am beginning to see the point of this thread and I confess I find it a tad worrying. Firstly, thank you @SueMG for your explanation of the WFPB diet. I have to say it appears a tad contradictory to say the least. I mean, according to their analysis it's not OK to eat flesh but it is fine to wear it??? Also, why are fans of WFPB diet avoiding meat - after all, poultry for example is very low fat and, as far as I am aware has never been blamed for causing diabetes. Anyway, each to their own, I guess.

I am really delighted your WFPB diet is working for you. I am not a doctor and I have no crystal ball so I am not about to predict your future or trash your views. Quite simply, if it works for you then don't break it. And long may it continue for you.

However, eating the type of carbs you have chosen would not work for me. I have monitored my BG since diagnosis and bread, potatoes, rice and pasta in any form are non-starters in my life. Indeed, from my reading on this forum many share a similar experience. For this reason, we have opted to avoid certain high carb foods. Now interestingly I can eat certain carbs (eg Bulgar wheat) that some other diabetics choose to avoid. Are they wrong? Of course not - we must all follow a path that is right for us. And one thing is transparent and that is that there's no single "right" way.

My ethical veganism is very right for me. I am happy .. and I respect the fact that many on this forum will cheerfully find on lamb, beef etc (although my wife does call it purifying flesh ). Perhaps what is important is to respect our differences, to not push our views onto others .. and to not get too embroiled in the "my way is the right way" route.

When I first joined this forum the best advice I was given was to get a BG monitor and go read up about the LCHF diet. I did both. After a while I started (and continue) to develop my own way of living. It isn't completely LCHF because I don't want that kind of narrow lifestyle. Equally, I read about other diets. Some of their ideas are good and I try them others I reject. At the end of the day, I refuse to allow some scientist/ doctor/ chef to tell me how I should lead my life. Works for me but wouldn't work for many

 

[SueMG]

Zand, according to the International Diabetes Federation, the risk factors for developing type 2 diabetes include, Family history of diabetes, Overweight, Unhealthy diet, Physical inactivity, Increasing age, High blood pressure, Ethnicity, Impaired glucose tolerance , History of gestational diabetes, Poor nutrition during pregnancy. So when I say I ‘probably’ won’t get it I mean that I am very low risk. Of course I was only referring to type 2. I know someone who developed type 1 aged 70. I am doing the best I can to make sure my pancreatic beta cells hang on in there.

I don’t think diabetes is anyone’s fault, just as I don’t think my underactive thyroid is my fault.

Trial using WFPB diet on individuals with type 2 diabetes

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1777.long

Robbity, good question! I have had very little success to date getting anyone who had type 2 diabetes to seriously consider a WFPB diet. Everyone I know is happy to carry on eating the standard western diet and take the tablets, and the tablets they are on are usually for diabetes, high blood pressure and high cholesterol.

There are only about half a million vegans in the UK. So let’s face it, most people eat meat and don’t want to give it up. I would imagine you have had more success in promoting Low Carb, high fat?

Sue

 

[ladybird64]

Sue, let's cut right through all this. Welshman has made a couple very informative and interesting posts as a vegan -who has type 2 diabetes. Many of the members of this not-so-small forum have found that the grains, etc that have been suggested put up levels up. There are no ifs, or buts about that, they do. The reason we know is that also a great many self monitor, where the results of our meters tell us 2 hours after eating if it is a food that raises our personal levels or not. The majority find that they do. That is the biggest indicator for me, and maybe everyone you know is happy to take the tablets and scoff, but if you look at the posts on here, tens of thousands of them, you will see that is not the case for everyone, not by a long chalk.

Re the lecture, I watched it with an open mind. It struck me as a sales pitch, and more than a little condescending in it's tone. The data provided is pretty scant too. The 'study' used data comparing the ADA advocated diet vs WFPB. I'm fairly sure that the ADA advocates the same type of thing as ours does, a healthy mix of carbs, proteins, yadda yadda. What you are failing to take into account is that low carb does not follow the ADA diet so comparisons are pretty useless! We have the Eatwell Plate in the UK. Didn't help me much!

 

[Oldvatr]

Zand, according to the International Diabetes Federation, the risk factors for developing type 2 diabetes include, Family history of diabetes, Overweight, Unhealthy diet, Physical inactivity, Increasing age, High blood pressure, Ethnicity, Impaired glucose tolerance , History of gestational diabetes, Poor nutrition during pregnancy. So when I say I ‘probably’ won’t get it I mean that I am very low risk. Of course I was only referring to type 2. I know someone who developed type 1 aged 70. I am doing the best I can to make sure my pancreatic beta cells hang on in there.

I don’t think diabetes is anyone’s fault, just as I don’t think my underactive thyroid is my fault.

Trial using WFPB diet on individuals with type 2 diabetes

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1777.long

Robbity, good question! I have had very little success to date getting anyone who had type 2 diabetes to seriously consider a WFPB diet. Everyone I know is happy to carry on eating the standard western diet and take the tablets, and the tablets they are on are usually for diabetes, high blood pressure and high cholesterol.

There are only about half a million vegans in the UK. So let’s face it, most people eat meat and don’t want to give it up. I would imagine you have had more success in promoting Low Carb, high fat?

Sue

Actually I have personally had more success USING Low Carb high fat, and I have beeen happy to share my success story on this Forum. It works well for me, and thus I feel this qualifies me to advocate LCHF. But I too have questioned it severely in this Forum, and have started specific threads on it myself, as I too have had reservations at times. I do not blindly accept published statements, and question all.

I think that on WFPB we will disagree, but I can see that for non diabetics it may well have benefits. Its just that experience has proven to me that an LC diet is very well suited to my condition. There are many flavours of LC diet, any one of which would help me keep my bgl down and help with weight loss. Its just that LCHF ticks more boxes for me in other departments.

 

[kokhongw]

I would imagine you have had more success in promoting Low Carb, high fat?

As per Dr Eric Westman's observation "It is so unbelievable that people don't believe it!" http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf-and-diabetes

This article sums up the issues quite well and worth a good read
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2016/06/01/getting-the-right-sized-low-carb-band-aid/

Still despite the fact the LCHF and intermittent fasting provides excellent results in glucose/insulin control for us and we are probably much better off now then if we were controlling it with diabetic medication/insulin. It is clear that we are not totally out of the woods. We should remain open to alternative ideas that may offer hope for full recovery if not now...perhaps some time in the future.

 

[KevinPotts]

Sue, let's cut right through all this. Welshman has made a couple very informative and interesting posts as a vegan -who has type 2 diabetes. Many of the members of this not-so-small forum have found that the grains, etc that have been suggested put up levels up. There are no ifs, or buts about that, they do. The reason we know is that also a great many self monitor, where the results of our meters tell us 2 hours after eating if it is a food that raises our personal levels or not. The majority find that they do. That is the biggest indicator for me, and maybe everyone you know is happy to take the tablets and scoff, but if you look at the posts on here, tens of thousands of them, you will see that is not the case for everyone, not by a long chalk.

Re the lecture, I watched it with an open mind. It struck me as a sales pitch, and more than a little condescending in it's tone. The data provided is pretty scant too. The 'study' used data comparing the ADA advocated diet vs WFPB. I'm fairly sure that the ADA advocates the same type of thing as ours does, a healthy mix of carbs, proteins, yadda yadda. What you are failing to take into account is that low carb does not follow the ADA diet so comparisons are pretty useless! We have the Eatwell Plate in the UK. Didn't help me much!

I researched the ADA last night and referenced some US medics who stated that "lifestyle diet" change accounted for about 3% of ADAs advice to doctors as a management tool. 97% focuses on the medicines of Metformn et al. So I too cannot see any noteworthy basis for the ADA inclusion.


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[Oldvatr]

As per Dr Eric Westman's observation "It is so unbelievable that people don't believe it!" http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf-and-diabetes

This article sums up the issues quite well and worth a good read
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2016/06/01/getting-the-right-sized-low-carb-band-aid/

Still despite the fact the LCHF and intermittent fasting provides excellent results in glucose/insulin control for us and we are probably much better off now then if we were controlling it with diabetic medication/insulin. It is clear that we are not totally out of the woods. We should remain open to alternative ideas that may offer hope for full recovery if not now...perhaps some time in the future.

I am confused. The second link you gave has low carb in the title, but the article is almost totally calorie control. What is the real message you wanted to convey with it?
I totally agree with your last paragraph. LCHF is just one tool available to us that helps us control our condition, But it does not fit all, and like Atkins it is likely to evolve as new studies are published.

 

[Oldvatr]

Zand, according to the International Diabetes Federation, the risk factors for developing type 2 diabetes include, Family history of diabetes, Overweight, Unhealthy diet, Physical inactivity, Increasing age, High blood pressure, Ethnicity, Impaired glucose tolerance , History of gestational diabetes, Poor nutrition during pregnancy. So when I say I ‘probably’ won’t get it I mean that I am very low risk. Of course I was only referring to type 2. I know someone who developed type 1 aged 70. I am doing the best I can to make sure my pancreatic beta cells hang on in there.

I don’t think diabetes is anyone’s fault, just as I don’t think my underactive thyroid is my fault.

Trial using WFPB diet on individuals with type 2 diabetes

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/8/1777.long

Robbity, good question! I have had very little success to date getting anyone who had type 2 diabetes to seriously consider a WFPB diet. Everyone I know is happy to carry on eating the standard western diet and take the tablets, and the tablets they are on are usually for diabetes, high blood pressure and high cholesterol.

There are only about half a million vegans in the UK. So let’s face it, most people eat meat and don’t want to give it up. I would imagine you have had more success in promoting Low Carb, high fat?

Sue

The first thing i noted in the diabetes study was that the two diet plans were different for each group. The vegan diet was unrestricted energy, unrestricted carbohydrate intake, unrestricted portions. The ADA diet on the other hand was calorie restricted. Both were fat restricted to 10% for vegans, <7% saturated fat for ADA but with unlimited monounsaturated. The ADA was also cholesterol limited whereas the vegan diet had no limit.

The second thing that leapt off the page at me was that in a 6 month trial neither group seems to have achieved a reduction in HbA1c better than i did in 3 months, (and as others here have reported) when doing LCHF. The 1.23% drop in HbA1c for those who did not change medications during the trial is very similar to that achieved by taking Metformin only. Significant but not spectacular, and unlikely to resolve to a status of 'reversed'.

 

[SueMG]

A few of you asked what I was doing on the site. Well I was searching for something in Google and just came across it. I thought members might like some info on plant based reversing diabetes.

After I had started this thread I found out that the majority of you ate LCHF. I carried on because I thought we still had things in common (we are all human beings dealing with what life throws at us).

A better question might have been what made me decide to eat Whole Food Plant Based. Well my mother died of a heart attack at 61 and she also had terminal anal cancer. I wanted to avoid that and so after reading first The China Study by T Colin Campbell and then Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Caldwell Esselstyn, I was convinced it was the best way for me to go.

Both Caldwell Esselstyn and Dean Ornish are doctors who have reversed heart disease in many patients and they say the diet does the same for type 2 diabetes

http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/success-stories/ You can explore the site, but I recommend his book. The regime in his book is the one a stick to, to the letter.

So I just want to give information of a diet that would sort out diabetes and address other potential problems at the same time., That was really the start and finish of my intentions.

I know lots of you have had good results with Low Carb High Fat and that is compelling. I don't think I have done a good job really in giving you proper information.

A thread on the McDougall website may give you a better insight. http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/reversing-type-2-diabetes.102415/page-4#post-1172690

The eatwell plate is not suitable for anyone and it is not a low fat way of eating. I am recommending Whole Food Plant based with NO added oil/fat/sugar and nothing from an animal.

This may be of interest http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/reversing-type-2-diabetes.102415/page-4#post-1172690

dteresa on this thread also has/had type 2 diabetes https://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49172&p=505728&hilit=dteresa#p505728

Best wishes Sue

 

[Oldvatr]

A few of you asked what I was doing on the site. Well I was searching for something in Google and just came across it. I thought members might like some info on plant based reversing diabetes.

After I had started this thread I found out that the majority of you ate LCHF. I carried on because I thought we still had things in common (we are all human beings dealing with what life throws at us).

A better question might have been what made me decide to eat Whole Food Plant Based. Well my mother died of a heart attack at 61 and she also had terminal anal cancer. I wanted to avoid that and so after reading first The China Study by T Colin Campbell and then Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Caldwell Esselstyn, I was convinced it was the best way for me to go.

Both Caldwell Esselstyn and Dean Ornish are doctors who have reversed heart disease in many patients and they say the diet does the same for type 2 diabetes

http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/success-stories/ You can explore the site, but I recommend his book. The regime in his book is the one a stick to, to the letter.

So I just want to give information of a diet that would sort out diabetes and address other potential problems at the same time., That was really the start and finish of my intentions.

I know lots of you have had good results with Low Carb High Fat and that is compelling. I don't think I have done a good job really in giving you proper information.

A thread on the McDougall website may give you a better insight. http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/reversing-type-2-diabetes.102415/page-4#post-1172690

The eatwell plate is not suitable for anyone and it is not a low fat way of eating. I am recommending Whole Food Plant based with NO added oil/fat/sugar and nothing from an animal.

This may be of interest http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/reversing-type-2-diabetes.102415/page-4#post-1172690

dteresa on this thread also has/had type 2 diabetes https://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49172&p=505728&hilit=dteresa#p505728

Best wishes Sue

Thank you Sue. I think that if we had not discovered that for many diabetics the direct link that exists between carb intake and blood glucose, then we would have perhaps been more receptive to your well intentioned posts. As it is many have chosen LCHF as a suitable vehicle, and whilst the jury may still be out on certain aspects of the diet, we are prepared to take an informed risk and go with it. Your diet may well be a healthier lifestyle for the general populace, but in the diabetic community it has little chance. I think that when I asked if anyone here had tried WFPB or had success with it then the fact there were no reponders shows that it has little or no track record here. The web is also quite sparse in evidential data to back up the claims for WFPB, which again will be interpreted in an adverse way when comparing it to the other LC diets we use here,

I think we would have been less hostile if you had not offered it as a means of reversing our condition, and perhaps posted in the vegetarian section. On this forum we see many such claims being made, so are used to testing them to see how valid they may be. You are not the first, and indubitably will not be the last.

 

[SunnyExpat]

A few of you asked what I was doing on the site. Well I was searching for something in Google and just came across it. I thought members might like some info on plant based reversing diabetes.

After I had started this thread I found out that the majority of you ate LCHF. I carried on because I thought we still had things in common (we are all human beings dealing with what life throws at us).

A better question might have been what made me decide to eat Whole Food Plant Based. Well my mother died of a heart attack at 61 and she also had terminal anal cancer. I wanted to avoid that and so after reading first The China Study by T Colin Campbell and then Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Caldwell Esselstyn, I was convinced it was the best way for me to go.

Both Caldwell Esselstyn and Dean Ornish are doctors who have reversed heart disease in many patients and they say the diet does the same for type 2 diabetes

http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/success-stories/ You can explore the site, but I recommend his book. The regime in his book is the one a stick to, to the letter.

So I just want to give information of a diet that would sort out diabetes and address other potential problems at the same time., That was really the start and finish of my intentions.

I know lots of you have had good results with Low Carb High Fat and that is compelling. I don't think I have done a good job really in giving you proper information.

A thread on the McDougall website may give you a better insight. http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/reversing-type-2-diabetes.102415/page-4#post-1172690

The eatwell plate is not suitable for anyone and it is not a low fat way of eating. I am recommending Whole Food Plant based with NO added oil/fat/sugar and nothing from an animal.

This may be of interest http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/reversing-type-2-diabetes.102415/page-4#post-1172690

dteresa on this thread also has/had type 2 diabetes https://www.drmcdougall.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49172&p=505728&hilit=dteresa#p505728

Best wishes Sue

It would be interesting to see how many out of the thousands of members do actually LCHF.
A minority are very vocal, many don't LCHF.
I personally reversed mine by a very low fat, very low calorie diet, and eat healthy none saturated fats, and follow a mediterranean diet like others.
I try to avoid red meats, and saturated animal fats, so it is interesting to see other diets being discussed, whatever the outcome.

 

[Oldvatr]

It would be interesting to see how many out of the thousands of members do actually LCHF.
A minority are very vocal, many don't LCHF.
I personally reversed mine by a very low fat, very low calorie diet, and eat healthy none saturated fats, and follow a mediterranean diet like others.
I try to avoid red meats, and saturated animal fats, so it is interesting to see other diets being discussed, whatever the outcome.

I have to say you are the first and only poster who has spoken of using a mediteranean diet, although it is a valid form of diet and is apparently suitable for diabetics. If you search the entire forum for the term mediteranean there only 34 references, some of which are mine. There are few posts that actually refer to the diet itself, as opposed to med oils, or herbs, or ingredients such as couscous.
If you do similar search on the term Newcastle or ND then there are 10 pages of postings, but again many of them due to me referencing the diet, and some of them are yours.
I could do the same for Paleo, or South Beach or Atkins and get many more hits. There are other diets than LCHF, but for some reason you pick on this one as your whipping post. Like Don Quixote tilting at windmills you have an ingrained reluctance to accept any recent research studies, but accept those studies clearly based on Peto analysis methods that have been thoroughly shown to misrepresent their conclusions

 

[SunnyExpat]

I have to say you are the first and only poster who has spoken of using a mediteranean diet, although it is a valid form of diet and is apparently suitable for diabetics. If you search the entire forum for the term mediteranean there only 34 references, some of which are mine. There are few posts that actually refer to the diet itself, as opposed to med oils, or herbs, or ingredients such as couscous.
If you do similar search on the term Newcastle or ND then there are 10 pages of postings, but again many of them due to me referencing the diet, and some of them are yours.
I could do the same for Paleo, or South Beach or Atkins and get many more hits. There are other diets than LCHF, but for some reason you pick on this one as your whipping post. Like Don Quixote tilting at windmills you have an ingrained reluctance to accept any recent research studies, but accept those studies clearly based on Peto analysis methods that have been thoroughly shown to misrepresent their conclusions

You could do the same for may.
The issue is labeling a diet, as I only just found out that appears to be what I'm doing officially.
I found a diet that works for me, others found it works for them. An article on here recently seems to tie it down to a style of diet. I'm sure I've said it's mediterranean before though.
No more sinister than that.
(it also seems to have been claimed as a LCHF as well)

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...-diet-for-weight-loss-say-researchers.102597/

As to the other diets, I guess the ones on those diets don't bomb every other discussion, so maybe that's why it tends to be a recurring discussion.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Oh, that and the fact it's spelt 'mediterranean' not 'mediteranean' may make a difference.

I appear to have mentioned 'mediterranean' 26 times, in one context or another.

 

[zand]

It would be interesting to see how many out of the thousands of members do actually LCHF.
A minority are very vocal, many don't LCHF.
I personally reversed mine by a very low fat, very low calorie diet, and eat healthy none saturated fats, and follow a mediterranean diet like others.
I try to avoid red meats, and saturated animal fats, so it is interesting to see other diets being discussed, whatever the outcome.

There are also the 120,000+ people who signed up to the low carb programme available from DCUK. Most of those haven't posted here on the forum, though some have. The majority of those people found it to be a helpful program.

 

[Oldvatr]

There is nothing sinister about the Mediterranean diet, and it is a viable mainstream diet for weight loss. It can easily be used to adapt an LCHF diet. I am a little concerned that NHS Choices uses it to adapt the Eatwell Plate diet and advocates high carb starchy foods for it. But we know how NHS nutritionists really understand diabetes requirements.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Goodfood/Pages/what-is-a-Mediterranean-diet.aspx

 

[SunnyExpat]

There is a good guide here,

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...ting/in-depth/mediterranean-diet/art-20047801

from the link earlier.

I suppose you could give a shot to adapting LCHF to mediterranean.
Certainly I use olive oil to a fair degree, and don't eat a lot of the carbs on there, as I lost my taste for a majority of them.
But I do portion control my fats and this seems to be against the ethos of LCHF to some, so I guess it depends.