Reversing Type 2 diabetes

[JohnEGreen]

@SueMG Thanks for explaining it all to us. But we have all passed the practical and will leave the theory to the theorists who like you for the most part have little to no experience of what they are talking about.

 

[Brunneria]

It would be interesting to see how people fared on LCHF long term. If you eat like this how long have you been doing it?

I have been eating lower carb for 30+ years now, and have found the lower I carb, the better I feel. Haven't eaten anything like 'normal levels' of carbs in all that time except for a few short strays into vegetarianism (my body hated it) macrobiotics (my body AND taste buds hated it). I have drifted into Very Low Carb/keto eating and it has been brilliant. Less inflammation, indigestion a thing of the past, much better energy levels, reduced insulin resistance, delighted with my blood glucose levels... My cholesterol is at optimum levels, no sign of a fatty liver, and all it all I feel excellent. Actually, the higher I go on saturated fats, the better I get. It has been a delightful revelation.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

So you believe diabetes can't be reversed?

Who is this question for, Sunny?

 

[Brunneria]

When you have very little carbs in your diet your body has to work harder to produce energy from fat and protein. The body’s first natural recourse for energy is carbs, it likes to store fat and use protein for growth and repair. I would say that is the bodies default position.

By eating low carb, high fat, you are making all your body processes work harder. I am interested how well the body can sustain all the hard work as we age.

Wrote my previous response before seeing this.
But... good grief. This is factually incorrect.
In fact it is nothing but blinkered dogma.

Many of us on here do our research before we post. And we don't just look for things that support our chosen worldview. We look at all the evidence, weigh the pros and cons, and make dietary choices based on that. Then we do trials on our own bodies, testing different ways of eating and supplements and lifestyle choices.

The views quoted above have clearly not been through this process. And @Indy's point is spot on - comparing the metabolically challenged with people with carb tolerance is a farce and has no meaning.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Who is this question for, Sunny?

Any one that would like to answer.
The op obviously believes it can be reversed, and the diet would be acceptable.
If others believe it can't be on their diet, fair enough.

I don't really have a view either way, I used an entirely different diet to both to reverse mine.
So I believe it can be reversed, you just need to find out how it works for you really.

 

[Indy51]

My glucometer has proven many times over that I cannot safely eat more than approx. 25g of carbs at any one sitting without straying into BG levels that I find unacceptable. If other people can eat more, good for them. I just know what my body tolerates. No amount of theorising or proselytising by diet afficionados can convince me that my meter is wrong or that I would be better off living with hyperinsulinemia/hyperglycemia. Never gonna happen

 

[SunnyExpat]

My glucometer has proven many times over that I cannot safely eat more than approx. 25g of carbs at any one sitting without straying into BG levels that I find unacceptable. If other people can eat more, good for them. I just know what my body tolerates. No amount of theorising or proselytising by diet afficionados can convince me that my meter is wrong or that I would be better off living with hyperinsulinemia/hyperglycemia. Never gonna happen

Fair enough.
You can't reverse your diabetes personally.
Others may be able to though, so an ongoing discussion on that topic would be helpful to them perhaps?

 

[Oldvatr]

Lots of people who are plant based do not consider themselves vegan, they wear leather etc. Many plant based doctors are not vegan. But it is easier to describe it as vegan, because people understand that. But many people who are vegan can have a high fat junk food diet. That is why I describe it as Whole Food Plant Based. I did not start off as an ethical vegan, but I am now. I am not selling anything. You can get all the information for free on the Dr McDougall website, just click on the free program links. Eating this way is very, cheap!


I get my essential omega 3 fat from a dessert spoonful of ground linseed or walnuts which I put on my porridge. I do eat some nuts but not many as this would increase my fat intake, and I try to keep that to 10 – 12% of energy intake, carbs would be around 80% of my energy consumption. Also so grains like oats and wheat contain about 10% fat. I get my calcium from dark green leafy veg, just like cows! I get my folate and iron from the same place.


This may be of interest https://www.facebook.com/notes/national-health-association/do-you-recommend-that-diabetics-avoid-white-potatoes/10151143052782614



The first thing I noticed when I changed my diet was that my energy increased. Try putting your foods in the Chronometer, a nutritional data base and see what you get.

https://cronometer.com/


I take a B12 tablet once a week and get my Vit D from sunshine in summer, occasionally take a Vit D tablet in winter and use a UVB lamp.


When you have very little carbs in your diet your body has to work harder to produce energy from fat and protein. The body’s first natural recourse for energy is carbs, it likes to store fat and use protein for growth and repair. I would say that is the bodies default position.


By eating low carb, high fat, you are making all your body processes work harder. I am interested how well the body can sustain all the hard work as we age. How I eat puts a low load on my body.


Sue

Although you have referred to LCHF here, the diet is adaptable in that you do not need to go into ketosis mode for it to work. I have found my own trigger level for carb input, at which point I start ketosis, above which I use glucogen. Both modes are actually keeping my bgl close to 5.6mmol/L over the day, so i can pick and choose which i want to use simply by making a minor change to my break fast meal. Similarly, in terms of weight control, I wish to keep my weight static where it now is, having reduced it to a 'normal' BMI for my height. If I start to lose weight below it, then i increase fat intake, and when i reach it again, i lay off the fat. Simple mechanisms. and I can share LCHF diet meals with all my family without having WWIII breaking out.

So the HF part of my diet is not much different from where I was 10 years ago. What has changed for me is the LC part, and that has dropped my HbA1c from 99 (11.2 %) to 44 (7.3 %) i.e. a reduction of 3.9% in 3 months, which is better than the WFPB study result I posted above. A couple of wholemeal breadslices or a baked potato without butter would blow all that into a cocked hat. As it is, a large portion of my food intake is actually from plants, but carefully selected LC plants. Last night i had a meat+4 veg meal, it raised my bgl by 0.3mmol/l at 2hrs, and zero at 4hrs. i am not starving or eating rabbit food.

And I have dropped my medication down as a result, and as confirmed by my DSN and GP.

One aspect that has not been discussed here, which i find invaluable, and that is the subject of hypo's. When aiming at a bgl daily average of around 5,5 mmol/l, then there are times when it goes high, and others when it approaches hypo land. If i am fat adapted (i.e. can automatically switch into keto mode) then I have protection against hypo's since my brain can use ketones as fuel, and my muscles will use fat from my adipose fat stores. This reduces the severity of my hypo's so allows me extra leeway in how I deal with them. Life becomes less stressful since I don't have to panic trying to bump myself up out of danger. I suspect the WFPB diet will reduce my fat stores and will not support efficient switching into keto mode when necessary. However, the larg carb input will probably make hypo's impossible to have. And bgl = 5.5 becomes a myth.

 

[Robbity]

Fair enough.
You can't reverse your diabetes personally.
Others may be able to though, so an ongoing discussion on that topic would be helpful to them perhaps?

What I'm interested in is exactly how they maintain or would maintain that reversal - can they go back to eating their pre diabetes levels of carbs long term without problems? That for me would be the absolute proof, but I'm aware that not everybody would choose to do this.

Otherwise for me I'd tend to believe they were just extremely well controlled.

Robbity

 

[Oldvatr]

So you believe diabetes can't be reversed?

The question we should be asking is whether the WFPB diet is suitable for diabetics. Then we can ask if it can lead to reversal/remission. We also need to consider if it is SAFE for diabetics, then we can ask is it safer than, say, LCHF or Paleo or Modified Atkins. Or prolonged Newcastle? Or Mediterranean, South Beach et al. Even Eatwell MKI or MKII. Or the ADA dietplan.
Where does WFBP fit into the greater scheme of things?

 

[AtkinsMo]

@SueMG I am also 62 and I have been following LCHF for 6 years. In that time I have reduced my previously pre diabetes HbA1c to totally normal, fasting bg normally 4.7 and random blood testing always under 6, eliminated GERD, and eliminated routine PPIs, reduced my BP from 200/140 (150/95 with 2 different drug regimes) to 115/70 average and lost 20kg in weight. I have maintained my weight for more than 4 years. I like to keep at around BMI 25 because that is what I believe is the healthiest BMI, you would probably regard me as plump, I would probably regard you as skinny.

I really have no problem with you eating or advocating a whole food plant based diet. But your knowledge and experience of the alternative is non existent, and your judgements come across as extremely arrogant and extremely ill informed, certainly with regards to how diet relates to the person with Insulin Resistance. As you state that you do not have diabetes I do wonder what your interest is in this forum and why you feel it is appropriate to share your lack of experience of diet as it relates to Insulin Resistance / Diabetes? I suspect that the thing that we have in common is that neither of us eats convenience food, and I believe that is the key to a healthful version of most diets, I eat whole foods, fresh above ground vegetables, natural healthy fats and good quality, preferably grass fed animal products, including offal and good bone broths and I have never been healthier.

 

[uart]

When you have very little carbs in your diet your body has to work harder to produce energy from fat and protein. The body’s first natural recourse for energy is carbs

I know what you mean Sue, it's just so hard to get through to some people.

I've got a friend who's a wheelchair bound double amputee. I keep telling him that a wheelchair is not the best way get around and that using legs is so much more convenient. But he just seems to ignore my advice! Honestly, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall - he just doesn't seem to get it!

 

[Oldvatr]

I think some of us are trying to shoot the messenger.

I would rather we debate the claim that was made that theWFBP diet can reverse T2D. If this is found to be a viable claim then we should support it, but if it has dubious science behind it, then this should be exposed since we should not support a diet that is unsuitable for diabetics, or at least point out weaknesses in the hypothesis so that inexperienced readers can make an informed decision.

It is difficult to find proper studies done for this diet. If you want a laugh then I did find this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662288/

The so called references exist, but their evidence is based on short term or single case studies, The conclusions drawn from them seem to be grossly exagerated considering the short term of the study (30 days, 18 weeks) The data in the reports is limited to the abstract text, so it is dificult to check, but the way the results are presented, then it is possible that the statistical methods for any report published prior to 2006 may be using a discredited analysis method. (e.g. PETO)

I would not regard these studies as being robust at all.

 

[lovinglife]

Skinny does not equate to healthy- neither does plump equate to unhealthy - it's a fallacy.
Now if you said obese then yes maybe but then anorexic isn't healthy either

 

[KevinPotts]

Lots of people who are plant based do not consider themselves vegan, they wear leather etc. Many plant based doctors are not vegan. But it is easier to describe it as vegan, because people understand that. But many people who are vegan can have a high fat junk food diet. That is why I describe it as Whole Food Plant Based. I did not start off as an ethical vegan, but I am now. I am not selling anything. You can get all the information for free on the Dr McDougall website, just click on the free program links. Eating this way is very, cheap!


I get my essential omega 3 fat from a dessert spoonful of ground linseed or walnuts which I put on my porridge. I do eat some nuts but not many as this would increase my fat intake, and I try to keep that to 10 – 12% of energy intake, carbs would be around 80% of my energy consumption. Also so grains like oats and wheat contain about 10% fat. I get my calcium from dark green leafy veg, just like cows! I get my folate and iron from the same place.


This may be of interest https://www.facebook.com/notes/national-health-association/do-you-recommend-that-diabetics-avoid-white-potatoes/10151143052782614



The first thing I noticed when I changed my diet was that my energy increased. Try putting your foods in the Chronometer, a nutritional data base and see what you get.

https://cronometer.com/


I take a B12 tablet once a week and get my Vit D from sunshine in summer, occasionally take a Vit D tablet in winter and use a UVB lamp.


When you have very little carbs in your diet your body has to work harder to produce energy from fat and protein. The body’s first natural recourse for energy is carbs, it likes to store fat and use protein for growth and repair. I would say that is the bodies default position.


By eating low carb, high fat, you are making all your body processes work harder. I am interested how well the body can sustain all the hard work as we age. How I eat puts a low load on my body.


Sue

Hi Sue,
I want to thank you for the gentle approach you are taking with your alternative observations

There are many people who have lived the LCHF lifestyle for 30 years, with resolved metabolic markers.

In terms of our system having to work harder, I don't think the scientific evidence agrees with you. Once the individual has ketogenically adapted (2-6 weeks), the brain and fat system
in general happily uses the ketones to trigger fat burning and in terms of satiety, this lifestyle diet is the most satisfied I have ever felt in my 54 years...not to mention my boundless energy


Diagnosed 13/4/16: T2, no meds, HbA1c 53, FBG 12.6, Trigs 3.6, HDL .75, LDL 4.0, BP 169/95, 13st 8lbs, waist 34" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

2/6/16: FBG AV 4.6, Trigs 1.5, HDL 2.0, LDL 3.0, BP 120/72, 11st 11lbs, waist 30" (2012 - 17st 7lbs, w 42").

Regime: 20g LCHF, run 1 mile daily, weekly fasting.

4/6/16: Best BP 112/64....yeah!!

 

[SunnyExpat]

What I'm interested in is exactly how they maintain or would maintain that reversal - can they go back to eating their pre diabetes levels of carbs long term without problems? That for me would be the absolute proof, but I'm aware that not everybody would choose to do this.

Otherwise for me I'd tend to believe they were just extremely well controlled.

Robbity

Short answer is yes.
However to be realistic, going back to my previous way of eating twice my body mass in junk food every day isn't something I would consider.
I eat a healthy, mediterranean style diet, with some carbs, some fat, and some protein. I avoid saturated fats, I eat good oils, I eat fresh food, fish is a big part of the diet, as is salad, healthy veg, little fried food.
No doubt if I eat badly enough, for long enough, I could put the weight back on, and become type 2 again is most probability.

It also depends on how you measure type 2.
I've never had any complications, I'm remarkably healthy, all I had was the high BG, the tiredness, the continual trips to the toilet, the drinking alot. That's all gone now.
But some articles on here recently suggest there may be more to it than high BG, and some of the complications, (there was an article on the heart), seem to run alongside diabetes, and it's the change in RNA that triggers the complications, not simply the high BG.
So, I'm enjoying life while I can.

 

[Brunneria]

I think some of us are trying to shoot the messanger..

Shooting the message is much more fun.
But not really worth any more of my ammo.

 

[SunnyExpat]

The question we should be asking is whether the WFPB diet is suitable for diabetics. Then we can ask if it can lead to reversal/remission. We also need to consider if it is SAFE for diabetics, then we can ask is it safer than, say, LCHF or Paleo or Modified Atkins. Or prolonged Newcastle? Or Mediterranean, South Beach et al. Even Eatwell MKI or MKII. Or the ADA dietplan.
Where does WFBP fit into the greater scheme of things?

I have seen reports on HCLF being successful, I can't find the studies at the moment, but it does seem that cutting down on any food group has better results than the glut the is our normal diet.
It's also worthy of discussion, as we are very privileged to be able to choose what we consider as the best diet, indeed, what is actually an expensive diet, and also the fact it's easily available to us.

I have been unfortunate enough, (or fortunate) to see true poverty, and carbs, rice, is the only choice.
So, a carb diet has it's place, and if it can work, I'm happy to hear it out.
(I suspect it could indeed reverse diabetes with calorie reduction, as effectively, I did that by very low calorie rabbit food, as someone called it previously)

 

[SunnyExpat]

Shooting the message is much more fun.
But not really worth any more of my ammo.

Maybe we all try to help each other, rather than simply trying to have fun taking potshots?

 

[Robbity]

I don't have type 2 diabetes and probably never will have. But my nephew is type 1 and so is my ex-sister in law's son and I have friends who have type 2.

From everyone's posts I understand that the low carb diet allows you to control your symptoms better. However you still have type 2 diabetes. What if there was a way to eat that reversed your diabetes, so that you were no longer diabetic? Would you be interested?

@SueMG, according to this post on the Trudi Deakin thread, you have relatives and friends with diabetes. Could you kindly explain to us why your diet has apparently not helped those with type 2 to reverse their diabetes, please, since according to your own words they (still) have it?

Robbity