There is a cure.. how come nobody does this?

[Djstevesire]

It would be interesting to poll who had done the diet, who has done variants, ie, food rather than shakes, low carb rather than original 'carby' shakes, added fat, increased calorie versions, longer slower weight loss, etc, and see what the results have been for each group.

We'd have enough members on this forum to put that to bed.

I like the idea. Also what was starting and ending weight

 

[ickihun]

I like the idea. Also what was starting and ending weight

Ending weight after 8 weeks or ending weight of the individual's weight at reversal state? Huge difference!

Weight loss may indicate a lot but individual weight status is irrespective. We are all different.
Percentage of weight loss might be more transparent?

Anyway, prof is doing more in his study so I'll just wait for his findings. Until then I'll stay signed up for bariatric surgery just in case.

 

[lindisfel]

Too many different sets to make an adequate comparison? How does one compare someone at 77 with a young T2 at 27? I think you should carefully choose sets to compare.
Derek

 

[ickihun]

Too many different sets to make an adequate comparison? How does one compare someone at 77 with a young T2 at 27? I think you should carefully choose sets to compare.
Derek

And newly diagnosed with oldees like me. Sooo many variants. Other conditions on top etc... too many variants!!!!

 

[douglas99]

I doubt we'd get enough answers not to be able to compare data individually to be honest.

 

[ladybird64]

Please show where I made any claims?

You claimed that all type 2's became that way due to eating **** so hence their fault. Offensive and untrue. Fact.

I asked a question.. I don't understand where you came with this superiority thing.. I haven't said anything to provoke you or yoj

You stated that people "sat around feeling sorry for themselves", you also said if the ND didn't work, "you did it wrong". Offensive to those who work bloody hard to tackle their diabetes and who do just the opposite of sitting around feeling sorry for themselves. Fact.
For those that have tried the ND diet, it absolutely seems to work for some. But if it doesn't, how do you know why it didn't? Where is your proof ? You don't have any. Fact.


Thank you for this comment..
I came across something that I thought would possibly help somebody and had some thoughts on maybe making it work better..

For the most part I've been called names.. for asking a question.

No, not so. For the most part your attitude has been criticised, and rightly so.
You have bandied around accusations and insinuations, erroneous assumptions, and then you try and backtrack on what you actually did say.

I believe the way people view things is a true reflection of themselves..
Why would anyone "feel superior" and how would I be a bully by asking a straight forward question..

Please see above. A condescending attitude does you no favours.

I never made any claims nor did I speak badly of anyone.

You did make claims (see above) and did speak badly of people,suggesting they weren't helping themselves

I see a some believe that since they feel (without actually doing the diet) that it won't work for them ... so In thier opionin NOBODY should be made aware. In that same line of thought since you can't excerise , don't tell people exercise helps, either.. and if anything new comes out don't share it casue it doesn't help your particular case.. I will never understand that mindset..

There is a crisis in this country with diabetes on the rise and although SOME may have really complicated hormonal cases. I believe the majority doesn't. And in my eyes if ANYONE can be helped by this method I believe it should be made more public.

Nobody insinuated that info shouldn't be put forward for everyone to decide for themselves. If you look around the forum you will see that is the case.

Anyway a couple points I wouldn't like to add..

From my understanding it wasn't the actually weight loss but the SUDDEN lack of calories that triggered the body.
They claimed that during the first week bg levels went back to normal. I'm sure weight loss helps mainly removing visceral fat. But also the sudden drop in calories has something to do with it.. as stated in the study..
This is something that should be investigated further imho. Also the possible effects of autophagy.

I've also read A case about a man who did this diet for 11 days.. he was slender to start.. and had to drop down 11stone to 8 stone 13lbs (Seems scary for a guy)but this method has worked for him as well..


To clear up any misconceptions
Am I saying this is the only way? NO.
Never did.
am I saying the research showed it to be effective? YES
Am I saying it need to be revised and made more public?Absolutely.

Thank you for your clarity.

The human body is remarkable machine built to survive.. don't ever forget that..

 

[Djstevesire]

A few key points I would like to establish as I noticed some people are misinterpreting the information..

This particular study did in fact have a 100% success rate.. every single one of the 11 subjects had Normal bg readings after the study...that is 100 percent..

Now 12 weeks later 2 of the 11 went back and got t2d again.. most likely from poor eating habits.

Moving forward. It appears that the results where actually obtained all in the first week! Very interesting if you would only have to do the harsh restriction for a week.. before moving to a more moderate approach.

As you can see by the charts included from the study.

 

[Djstevesire]

The excerpt from the study shows that the abrupt and severe caloric reduction has a different effect then a slower moderate reduction.

What do you guys think? I know somebody replied that they had lost weight doing low carb. But it wasn't till they did the starvation that their t2d went away..

 

[walnut_face]

View attachment 21736

This particular study did in fact have a 100% success rate..

Which study was this? Do you have a link please?
Cos it isnt this one https://campus.recap.ncl.ac.uk/Panopto/Pages/Viewer.aspx?id=c3bef819-e5f4-4a55-876f-0a23436988ed which is the study many are referring to in this thread. Of course a study where n=11 is statistically irrelevant. Your claim that a VLCD is the holy grail and 100% successful is flawed purely on the basis of so few participants,and is what has put many peoples backs up

 

[bulkbiker]

View attachment 21736 A few key points I would like to establish as I noticed some people are misinterpreting the information..

This particular study did in fact have a 100% success rate.. every single one of the 11 subjects had Normal bg readings after the study...that is 100 percent..

Now 12 weeks later 2 of the 11 went back and got t2d again.. most likely from poor eating habits.

Moving forward. It appears that the results where actually obtained all in the first week! Very interesting if you would only have to do the harsh restriction for a week.. before moving to a more moderate approach.

As you can see by the charts included from the study.

I'm not sure we are misinterpreting the information just not placing such a great emphasis as you are..

From the Newcastle University press release

"The volunteers were then followed-up three months later. During this time they had returned to eating normally but had received advice on portion size and healthy eating. Of the ten people re-tested, seven remained free of diabetes."

Just because they had normal glucose levels after an 8 week starvation diet does not mean they were "cured".
I am not saying it doesn't work.. I am trying to point out that it is not a "cure" that will work for everyone.

Even the highly motivated people who did it were not all able to maintain that normal blood glucose. Douglas says he has.. although he admits that he does have to go back on the diet if he starts to gain weight. It may well work for you and yes it would be a great idea if the NHS at least made the knowledge available but it is not 100% successful for life. That is where you are going wrong and even you I think would agree that it is not possible to follow an 800 cal a day diet forever...

 

[douglas99]

Yes, it does seem if I eat too much I gain weight, if I eat less I lose weight.

Although, I don't actually see that as particularly not 'normal'.

As to the argument of 800 calorie a day forever, LCHF is forever it seems.
I eat normally.

I often wonder why people seem to continually get confused?

 

[Djstevesire]

In your response I don't see any claims or whatever the message is your trying to convey...

But either way you slice it. It's a logical phallacy on your behalf for making this about me and not the subject at hand. (Argumentum ad hominem.)
Because you took portions of a sentence and made them to suit your agenda.

I never said every body with t2d was fat and lazy because that's not even true..
I clearly stated that's HOW I PERSONALLY got Bg issues.. from laying around all day and eating like ****.. but good job on somehow transposing that sentence to "all that have t2d are fat and lazy"

As far as saying a person didn't get results because they did it wrong.. last time I checked we all human and as humans we are capable of making mistakes. Unless your saying that everyone is perfect.. then I will stand by my statement that there is a possibility that the person didn't do it correctly.

To address the the statement about feeling sorry for themselvees.. that is life.. nobody should sit round feeling sorry for themselves.. it's a waste of time..obviously if a person worked hard or whatever the comment wasnt directed to them.. in never mentioned any group of people. If I was to say child molesters should go to jail would you be offended?
I wouldn't.. because I'm not a child molester...

Lastly you claim I spoke badly of somebody? I'll wait while you provide me with whom and when? Once again you made that up I'm your mind..

I ask that you please stay focused on the topic.. and stop the ad hominem attack on me .. it serves no purpose and it unwarranted...

 

[bulkbiker]

One thing this thread has shown me is how difficult it is to find out the exact results of the Newcastle Study and exactly how many such studies have been undertaken.

The first the "Counterpoint" study seems to have had 29 participants with varying lengths of time of having Type 2.
This was I think funded by Noro Nordisk

We then get the 11 person study which seems to have been funded by Diabetes UK which I believe is the one referred to by @Djstevesire although that is far from clear.

Now there is the Direct study which is comparing the Low Cal diet with the standard Eatwell plate (I think).

I'll try and e-mail Prof Taylor tomorrow and see if I can get a definitive answer from him.

 

[Indy51]

@bulkbiker - this page on the scientific information may help?

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#scientificinformation

 

[AndBreathe]

One thing this thread has shown me is how difficult it is to find out the exact results of the Newcastle Study and exactly how many such studies have been undertaken.

The first the "Counterpoint" study seems to have had 29 participants with varying lengths of time of having Type 2.
This was I think funded by Noro Nordisk

We then get the 11 person study which seems to have been funded by Diabetes UK which I believe is the one referred to by @Djstevesire although that is far from clear.

Now there is the Direct study which is comparing the Low Cal diet with the standard Eatwell plate (I think).

I'll try and e-mail Prof Taylor tomorrow and see if I can get a definitive answer from him.

The current larger study is funded by Diabetes UK.

 

[bulkbiker]

@bulkbiker - this page on the scientific information may help?

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#scientificinformation

Thanks for that Indy but its still not clear how many have been done..I have emailed the good Prof so will let you know if I get a reply.

 

[bulkbiker]

The current larger study is funded by Diabetes UK.

Thanks for that but they seem to have also funded an earlier one which I think is the one being referred to on this thread. It was a precursor to the larger one maybe.

 

[walnut_face]

From the link in the OP's 1st post Bold text is my emphasis

Participants Individuals with type 2 diabetes (age 35–65 years, HbA1c 6.5–9.0% [48–75 mmol/mol], diabetes duration <4 years, stable BMI 25–45 kg/m2) were recruited. Participants were excluded if being treated with thiazolidinediones, insulin, steroids or beta-blockers, with a serum creatinine >150 mmol/l, with a serum alanine transaminase level >2.5-fold above the upper limit of the reference range, or if there were contraindications for MRI. Statin therapy was continued. The study protocol was approved by the Newcastle upon Tyne Ethics Committee No. 2, and all participants gave their informed consent. Sulfonylurea (two individuals) was discontinued 2 months, and metformin (seven individuals) 1 week, before the baseline study. Dietary adherence was assessed using capillary ketone levels (Xceed Optium; Abbott Diabetes Care, Maidenhead, UK). Three individuals failed to comply with the diet (two during the first week and one during weeks 4–8), and one left the study for an unrelated medical reason. Hence 11 individuals (nine male and two female, age 49.5 ± 2.5 years) completed the study.Nine control participants matched for weight, age and sex were also studied (seven male, two female, age 49.7 ± 2.5 years; Table 1). These participants had no family history of diabetes, were taking no medication and had normal glucose metabolism as confirmed by a standard 75 g OGTT.

So this is a part of a Newcastle Study, though I am not clear which one, as the study report I am familiar with had a sucess rate of 40%. The candidates were very carefully selected, none had had the condition for more than 4 years and and HbA1c no higher than 9%
Most importantly medication was discontinued prior to the start. not sure were in the world you are @Djstevesire but no one should discontinue their medication without consulting, and with guidance from a Health Care Professional.
I totally agree that such methods should become more widely known, and in that respect you are preaching to the converted.
No one is having a go at the message you are trying to convey, but are taking exception to your assertion that those who haven't achieved success have somehow been doing it wrong. Does 'doing it wrong' apply to those whose starting position is an HbA1c of >100, and have clearly not been covered in the study?

 

[Djstevesire]

I'm not sure we are misinterpreting the information just not placing such a great emphasis as you are..

From the Newcastle University press release

"The volunteers were then followed-up three months later. During this time they had returned to eating normally but had received advice on portion size and healthy eating. Of the ten people re-tested, seven remained free of diabetes."

Just because they had normal glucose levels after an 8 week starvation diet does not mean they were "cured".
I am not saying it doesn't work.. I am trying to point out that it is not a "cure" that will work for everyone.

Even the highly motivated people who did it were not all able to maintain that normal blood glucose. Douglas says he has.. although he admits that he does have to go back on the diet if he starts to gain weight. It may well work for you and yes it would be a great idea if the NHS at least made the knowledge available but it is not 100% successful for life. That is where you are going wrong and even you I think would agree that it is not possible to follow an 800 cal a day diet forever...

And I'm the other sidee of the table
Ands say there are people that have not went back to be diabetic and eat whatever they want within reason..7 out of 10

"They went back to eating normally" being that they where obese to begin with what do you think normally means..they weren't following lchf or low calorie.. they where eating whatever they wanted..

There's a good possibility the 2-3 that became diabetic again where eating very poorly or not exercising. This has actually been documented that people who severely restrict calories or food groups rebound and gain a lot of weight back by going right back to their old eating habits.
And even over indulging..

You don't have to follow an 800 calorie diet forever lol.. that is insanity! There wouldn't be any reason to do that. Anyway. It shows that most of the effect happens in the first week.. it may be more of a hormonal response then we give credit.

You just have to eat at maintenance once you reach your target weight in theory.

So to have a clear understanding..
What do you call a cure?
I have included the definition of a cure from the oxford dictionary..

And just to clarify this is just a discussion.
Not arguing with anyone

 

[AndBreathe]

Thanks for that but they seem to have also funded an earlier one which I think is the one being referred to on this thread. It was a precursor to the larger one maybe.

Indeed.

I think it is acknowledged that the small study's data set is not large enough to provide enough data to influence the bigger picture at a compelling level. Hopefully the larger study over multiple locations (mainly Newcastle and Glasgow) will move some way towards that, if not totally.

I had an update from DUK about a year ago on "the state of the nation", via DUK. I'm not a DUK member, but do attend my local (very good) group, where we had a representative from DUK giving a presentation on their work. So, I asked for the update, and was obliged.

I don't recall any earth moving data or statements in it though. I'll dig it out if you're interested.