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Mechanism by which saturated fat raises LDL

Tannith said:
Their sat fat intake is less than 6% of cals, their total fat intake 14%, protein 14% also. Their arteries are clean as a whistle even at age 85, despite far higher levels of inflammation than ours. That's enough to convince me to avoid saturated fat like the plague in order to have less clogged arteries.
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A timely posting perhaps?
https://www.dietdoctor.com/saturated-fat-bad
 
NoCrbs4Me said:
More recent info says their life expectancy is now 53.
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The Medium report in the link shared by @Tannith is claiming a common lifespan of 70 years, and talks of many reaching 75 and 85 years of age with NO atherosclerosis. The full report in the Lancet makes absolutely no mention of lifespan, and none of the Lancet referenced material seems to mention it either, which suggests it is an addition made by Joel Kahn. But there is no independant source info referenced so difficult to comment.

I find it amazing that someone paid for 705 CT scans for this study to get the CACS scores, but no mention of who funded this research. Apparently it was funded by <<<National Institute on Aging, National Institutes of Health; St Luke's Hospital of Kansas City; and Paleocardiology Foundation.>>>>

The only study reference in the Lancet to the Tsimane is
<<<Vasunilashorn, S, Crimmins, EM, Kim, JK et al. Blood lipids, infection, and inflammatory markers in the Tsimane of Bolivia. Am J Hum Biol. 2010; 22: 731–740>>>

The only other referenced docs to Bolivia are
>>>Gurven, M, Jaeggi, AV, Kaplan, H, and Cummings, D. Physical activity and modernization among Bolivian Amerindians. PLoS One. 2013; 8: e55679>>>
and
<<<<Martin, MA, Lassek, WD, Gaulin, SJ et al. Fatty acid composition in the mature milk of Bolivian forager-horticulturalists: controlled comparisons with a US sample. Matern Child Nutr. 2012; 8: 404–418>>>>
So it is not clear where the cohort study got its Tsimane specific info from??????

The important note of interest comes in the Tables in the Lancet doc, one of which shows a modelled predictive binomial chart for Tsimane CAC scores, I.E IT IS FICTION derived from a computer synthesis, and not from raw data per se.

This report appears to be Bunkum, hocus pocus and typical output from the WFPB brigade. I am not impressed at all.
 
 
Looking at the correspondence for the Tsimane study report in the Lancet, it has the following comment made by a reader
<<<<
This study supports the work of Lindeberg and Lundh some 25 years ago. They found no evidence of CHD or stroke among the natives of Kitava. They also reported no evidence of CHD and stroke in all of Papua New Guinea. Eaton et al, also reported the rarity or absence of CHD and stroke in the Solomon Islands, PNG, Kalahari bushmen, and Congo pygmies.

Lindeberg and Lundh, Apparent absence of stroke and ischaemic heart disease in a traditional Melanesian island: a clinical study in Kitava, Journal of Internal Medicine 1993; 233: 269-275.

Eaton, Konner, Sostak, Stone agers in the fast lane: chronic degenerative diseases in evolutionary perspective. The American Journal of Medicine, 1988; 84;, 739-749>>>>
so this is not a unique set of results. It remains to be seen if these other studies showed adherence to a similar diet pattern

Edit to add:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-can-we-learn-from-the-kitavans/

and an interesting take on reasons why in the following
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/myncbi/thomas.samaras.1/comments/
 
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Oldvatr said:
This report appears to be Bunkum, hocus pocus and typical output from the WFPB brigade. I am not impressed at all.
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So does that mean that if you enjoy eating loads of saturated fat, you can and that if you then had a heart attack it wouldn't be your fault?
 
chri5 said:
And there is a region of France which is famous for the duck and fois gras it produces, that eats a huge amount of sat fat yet has an extremely low rate of heart disease. Only proves that for every argument there is usually a counter argument.
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The 'French Paradox'. The data they refuse to acknowledge.
 
Tannith said:
So does that mean that if you enjoy eating loads of saturated fat, you can and that if you then had a heart attack it wouldn't be your fault?
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Not at all. I had my heart attack when I was following a Low Fat diet, using 'healthy' margerine instead of that nasty butter stuff that had been banned in our household for many years. The special marge with added plant stanols did not fix my bad cholesterol and cost a lot, but we persevered since that was the dietary advice at the time. It tasted like axle grease, and in essence that is almost what it is,

No the report is IMHO bunkum because it does not cite any independent peer review, has errors in it, and appears to have a hidden agenda. The raw data has no source identified, and the tables appear without corresponding analysis or confidence interval (CI) stated for their validity index The fact that the main table is labelled as being derived by modelling rather than from true data is indicative of guesswork being used to base the main conclusions on, thus invalidating the claims being made,

If you can find the raw data source, then by all means share it here, and I will look at it. Till then I will ignore that report,
 
Tannith said:
So does that mean that if you enjoy eating loads of saturated fat, you can and that if you then had a heart attack it wouldn't be your fault?
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By this argument then the opposite is true.
 
Oldvatr said:
The important note of interest comes in the Tables in the Lancet doc, one of which shows a modelled predictive binomial chart for Tsimane CAC scores, I.E IT IS FICTION derived from a computer synthesis, and not from raw data per se.

This report appears to be Bunkum, hocus pocus and typical output from the WFPB brigade. I am not impressed at all.
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I think you may have completely misunderstood this table. It was a sub analysis of the findings not the main findings themselves. As such it adds to not detracts from the results of the study. 2. The Lancet never publishes anything that has not been peer reviewed. 3. There are no other similar studies referred to because this was NOT a meta-analysis but an original study.
 
chri5 said:
And there is a region of France which is famous for the duck and fois gras it produces, that eats a huge amount of sat fat yet has an extremely low rate of heart disease. Only proves that for every argument there is usually a counter argument.
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Good point. I can't offer an explanation for the French Paradox or I would be a millionaire. However findings of studies of the diets of peoples in the "Blue Zones" support those of the Tsimane study. ie their diets mostly contain if anything less meat than the Tsimane diet; meats tend to be high in omega 3 s as they are from grass fed animals, so overall they eat very little saturated fat and have very low, if not non existent, rates of cardiovascular disease. (And diabetes).
 
Tannith said:
Good point. I can't offer an explanation for the French Paradox or I would be a millionaire. However findings of studies of the diets of peoples in the "Blue Zones" support those of the Tsimane study. ie their diets mostly contain if anything less meat than the Tsimane diet; meats tend to be high in omega 3 s as they are from grass fed animals, so overall they eat very little saturated fat and have very low, if not non existent, rates of cardiovascular disease. (And diabetes).
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The Tsimane are not a Blue Zone people. Their life expectancy is not all that great.

You should read this study: "Food consumption and the actual statistics of cardiovascular diseases: an epidemiological comparison of 42 European countries"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27680091
 
Tannith said:
I think you may have completely misunderstood this table. It was a sub analysis of the findings not the main findings themselves. As such it adds to not detracts from the results of the study. 2. The Lancet never publishes anything that has not been peer reviewed. 3. There are no other similar studies referred to because this was NOT a meta-analysis but an original study.
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The study discusse the CAC values of the Tsimane population. Table 2 is titled "Zero-inflated negative binomial model predicting Tsimane CAC scores".

I do take back my comment about CI being missing. I also note that the raw data is available in an Appendix that is not included in the Lancet Report as published. It is available via a paywall which I am not going to pay for, I accept that the study does show that this specific group do have low CAC scores, but not convinced that it is only due to low fat dietary factors alone.

I also think the 70 year lifespan claim is too high compared to other records. The presence of high inflammation has not been addressed and the effects of this on other health indicators remains unknown. There is a high infant mortality rate in this population too. Are they really healthy? I understand that the village of Pioppi in Italy has a similar low CVE rate and now has a diet named after it. This diet is not a low fat diet. But the population in Pioppi seems to be quite healthy in general terms.

The tsimane study is a cohort study, and is observational only. It will provide clues to what may be influencing the observed group but is not able to provide definitive proof by itself, or isolate any particular influence
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/281703.php
 
The article I came across about the Tsimane eating a low fat diet and having clean arteries and virtually no diabetes or heart disease got me interested in the diets of other cultures and I have been reading about the Okinawan diet. They too have no diabetes cvd etc and have the highest number of centenarians of any population. They eat a diet even lower in fat than the Tsimane and though they do more exercise than we do they are not out hunting all day like the Tsimane. It is not genetic because they found that the younger generations of Okinawans who have started to eat something nearer to a Western diet , are starting to get diabetes and heart disease, and also to get fatter than their elders who have low BMIs of 22 approx.
 
So, what do they have in common - no ultraprocessed food (including chemically extracted seed oils, low sugar, no flour) - but it must be low fat diets causing the lack of CVD?
 
Indy51 said:
<<<<<<but it must be low fat diets causing the lack of CVD?<<<<<
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This is I believe the message that the OP article reference is trying to say. It is aso the message behind the WFPB movement and that is based on the study carried out by the 7th day Adventists known as ADVENT 2. That study is an observational study (not RCT) and was not independant, The diet must be Ultra Low Fat for it to work apparently. So yes, it may well be the controlling influence in the Tsimane and similar studies. Personally I think it is the lack of modern processed foods and oils that is the most significant thing at play.
 
Tannith said:
The article I came across about the Tsimane eating a low fat diet and having clean arteries and virtually no diabetes or heart disease got me interested in the diets of other cultures and I have been reading about the Okinawan diet. They too have no diabetes cvd etc and have the highest number of centenarians of any population. They eat a diet even lower in fat than the Tsimane and though they do more exercise than we do they are not out hunting all day like the Tsimane. It is not genetic because they found that the younger generations of Okinawans who have started to eat something nearer to a Western diet , are starting to get diabetes and heart disease, and also to get fatter than their elders who have low BMIs of 22 approx.
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The eskimos face a similar problem with diabetes growing after the introduction of western culture. Japan is also seeing this effect taking place, and theirs used to be a high carb low fat diet, whereas the eskimo were using a low carb high fat/protein diet,
 
It must also be noted that the diet in North America in general is not only very heavily carb laden but also high in HFCS as well as the othe other 'foodstuffs' already mentioned.
 
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