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Peak readings

PenguinMum

PenguinMum

Expert
Messages
7,138
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I am being fairly successful in managing meals keeping meal differences less than 2 but after a week of notetaking I am seeing a definite peak around mid morning. The same meal for breakfast comes in significantly higher than if I eat it lunch or supper. Today had a usual breakfast bit later and was surprised to see post reading even higher than usual. I think when I get up my BS continues to rise well into late morning. Do others find raised BS all morning like me?
(I am not someone who has to eat when I get up but I think I am going to have to eat a small amount. Note: couldnt stomach coffee with cream etc. and try to keep eggs for other meals except occasionally.)
 
I am feeling left out of the fun! I didnt explain it very well but what I wonder is how long does the “Dawn Phenominum” go on for and I would I be better to keep a morsel (nut say) by my bedside for when I wake up?
 
I find my sugars rise during the morning especially if I don’t eat (proved this a couple of weeks ago when I fasted for a blood test). It’s all to do with liver dumping or dawn phenomenon. I got fed up of eggs for breakfast, and did some Googling. I found this low carb coconut ‘porridge’ (not real porridge, no grains in sight, but warm and filling all the same) and have it every morning with two or three strawberries and cream. It 9 times out of 10 stalls my blood sugar rise so long as I get up, test, go straight downstairs and eat (dress and shower afterwards), and it’s delicious. Many type 2s, me included tolerate carbs better as the day goes on, so I stick to meals of 10g or less at breakfast and lunch and save the majority for my dinner in the evening. Here’s some links:
The low carb coconut porridge:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/recipes/keto-coconut-porridge
Dawn phenomenon:
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blood-glucose/dawn-phenomenon.html
Oh and morning numbers are the last to settle down so try not to worry about this too much.
 
Rachox said:
I find my sugars rise during the morning especially if I don’t eat (proved this a couple of weeks ago when I fasted for a blood test). It’s all to do with liver dumping or dawn phenomenon. I got fed up of eggs for breakfast, and did some Googling. I found this low carb coconut ‘porridge’ (not real porridge, no grains in sight, but warm and filling all the same) and have it every morning with two or three strawberries and cream. It 9 times out of 10 stalls my blood sugar rise so long as I get up, test, go straight downstairs and eat (dress and shower afterwards), and it’s delicious. Many type 2s, me included tolerate carbs better as the day goes on, so I stick to meals of 10g or less at breakfast and lunch and save the majority for my dinner in the evening. Here’s some links:
The low carb coconut porridge:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/recipes/keto-coconut-porridge
Dawn phenomenon:
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blood-glucose/dawn-phenomenon.html
Oh and morning numbers are the last to settle down so try not to worry about this too much.
Click to expand...
Thanks Rachox. I didnt know the DP could go on for 10 hours after going to sleep. Though I go to bed around 10 I usually read and dont actually sleep much before midnight so that now makes sense. I am not sure the coconut porridge is for me but I have taken on board to go eat as soon as I rise before ANYTHING else!
I really do appreciate the answers I get on this forum.
 
The DP can arrive at any time of the day, it isn't restricted to waking up. It also happens during exercise, and at any time our hormones detect our glucose levels need bumping up a bit.

In normal healthy people the liver dumps and the pancreas secretes insulin at the same time. The insulin not only clears the dumped glucose from the blood stream but also enters the liver and tells it to stop dumping. (all regulated by hormones). In T2 diabetics this system breaks down because we have insulin resistance. The insulin can't do its job properly, can't clear the dumped glucose, and can't tell the liver to stop dumping. The pancreas then panics and secretes even more insulin, and keeps doing this until there is enough circulating insulin to do its job. This can take hours if the insulin resistance is severe.

The problem with eating carbs for breakfast is that all the glucose released from the carbs also enters the blood stream and joins the dumped glucose, making glucose levels even higher, and making the pancreas work even harder to try and clear it. One answer is to only eat fats and/or protein for breakfast. This is why eggs are very useful, and also cheese and cream.

The same thing that happens to you also used to happen to me, but I stopped it by having a coffee with cream and no food until lunch time.
 
Bluetit1802 said:
The DP can arrive at any time of the day, it isn't restricted to waking up. It also happens during exercise, and at any time our hormones detect our glucose levels need bumping up a bit.

In normal healthy people the liver dumps and the pancreas secretes insulin at the same time. The insulin not only clears the dumped glucose from the blood stream but also enters the liver and tells it to stop dumping. (all regulated by hormones). In T2 diabetics this system breaks down because we have insulin resistance. The insulin can't do its job properly, can't clear the dumped glucose, and can't tell the liver to stop dumping. The pancreas then panics and secretes even more insulin, and keeps doing this until there is enough circulating insulin to do its job. This can take hours if the insulin resistance is severe.

The problem with eating carbs for breakfast is that all the glucose released from the carbs also enters the blood stream and joins the dumped glucose, making glucose levels even higher, and making the pancreas work even harder to try and clear it. One answer is to only eat fats and/or protein for breakfast. This is why eggs are very useful, and also cheese and cream.

The same thing that happens to you also used to happen to me, but I stopped it by having a coffee with cream and no food until lunch time.[/
Click to expand...
 
You say it used ro happen to you..So if I stop having carbs for breakfast will my body eventually be “trained” to release less sugar into my blood?
 
Thankyou bluetit1802
My reading this morning was 7.4. I have my dinner before 8pm and I don't eat until 11.30 or mid day the following day.
My H1ac readings have been 38 for the last three times. In light of your saying you have controlled the DP by having coffee with cream on rising, do you think I should change my regime?
 
I need to keep my first meal lower in carbs than my evening one - I eat twice a day and at widely spaced intervals, sometimes 12 hours if I am out of the house.
No carbs in a morning is bad for me, but something on the lines of scrambled eggs with cheese and a large tomato and maybe a stick of celery and I am absolutely fine. I also have coffee with cream
 
Rachox said:
I find my sugars rise during the morning especially if I don’t eat (proved this a couple of weeks ago when I fasted for a blood test). It’s all to do with liver dumping or dawn phenomenon. I got fed up of eggs for breakfast, and did some Googling. I found this low carb coconut ‘porridge’ (not real porridge, no grains in sight, but warm and filling all the same) and have it every morning with two or three strawberries and cream. It 9 times out of 10 stalls my blood sugar rise so long as I get up, test, go straight downstairs and eat (dress and shower afterwards), and it’s delicious. Many type 2s, me included tolerate carbs better as the day goes on, so I stick to meals of 10g or less at breakfast and lunch and save the majority for my dinner in the evening. Here’s some links:
The low carb coconut porridge:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/recipes/keto-coconut-porridge
Dawn phenomenon:
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/blood-glucose/dawn-phenomenon.html
Oh and morning numbers are the last to settle down so try not to worry about this too much.
Click to expand...
Thanks @Rachox . I've just tried the coconut porridge .. love it.. and very filling too :)
 
PenguinMum said:
You say it used ro happen to you..So if I stop having carbs for breakfast will my body eventually be “trained” to release less sugar into my blood?
Click to expand...

Not exactly, but it may help.

Your liver dumps because it thinks you need extra glucose for energy to get you going when you get up. Your insulin will always struggle to clear this and stop your liver dumping until your fatty liver and insulin resistance improve. (assuming here that your liver is fatty and that you have insulin resistance) What a zero carb breakfast will do is to help stop the glucose levels rising even higher as the morning progresses and giving you a mid morning peak. It is a mixture of uncleared dumped glucose and glucose from breakfast carbs that causes this. A fatty breakfast will also help keep these peaks down.

Try it, and test regularly throughout the morning and see what happens.
 
Old_screw said:
Thankyou bluetit1802
My reading this morning was 7.4. I have my dinner before 8pm and I don't eat until 11.30 or mid day the following day.
My H1ac readings have been 38 for the last three times. In light of your saying you have controlled the DP by having coffee with cream on rising, do you think I should change my regime?
Click to expand...

I only controlled my DP during the course of the morning. I never did have an overnight problem. My FBG was always low 5s. My liver only started to dump after being up for 10 to 20 minutes. It was that dump that I managed to stop.

With 3 consecutive HbA1c's of 38 I don't think you need worry too much - that is a wonderful result. Do you test at times during the morning to see when your high FBG actually comes down? And do you know when it starts? I wonder if it is very temporary.
 
Bluetit1802 said:
Not exactly, but it may help.

Your liver dumps because it thinks you need extra glucose for energy to get you going when you get up. Your insulin will always struggle to clear this and stop your liver dumping until your fatty liver and insulin resistance improve. (assuming here that your liver is fatty and that you have insulin resistance) What a zero carb breakfast will do is to help stop the glucose levels rising even higher as the morning progresses and giving you a mid morning peak. It is a mixture of uncleared dumped glucose and glucose from breakfast carbs that causes this. A fatty breakfast will also help keep these peaks down.

Try it, and test regularly throughout the morning and see what happens.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks again Bluetit. I will test a zero carb breakfast tomo as my OH has a full English on a Sunday which I usually cook and will test 2 hours, 3hours. Will be educational. If that works then maybe I can manage slice of ham and bit of cheese as an alternative.
 
PenguinMum said:
Thanks again Bluetit. I will test a zero carb breakfast tomo as my OH has a full English on a Sunday which I usually cook and will test 2 hours, 3hours. Will be educational. If that works then maybe I can manage slice of ham and bit of cheese as an alternative.
Click to expand...

Let us know how you go on.
 
Bluetit1802 said:
Let us know how you go on.
Click to expand...
Well my cooked breakfast didnt work out as planned. Visiting son scrambled eggs and they had white stringy bits and I couldnt eat them so just had 3 slices bacon. Note to self: cook your own food now its so vital to eat as planned!
Anyway I have been testing all morning and here are the results:
08.30. 7.0
10.40. 7.3. Then had bacon and tea
11.40. 7.2
12.40. 6.3
These numbers are bit lower than normal due to no carbs but still indicate to me I am peaking mid morning. So a carb free breakfast (bit more than today lol) seems advisable. Amazing what you can find out using a meter!
 
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