will diabetes type 2 worsen

[millenium]

They should made this into a standardised extract supplement. If not, info on how to grow it in garden, harvest it and how to prepare it as a tonic for healthy people is interesting to me.

 

[Oldvatr]

How is it taken as a folk medicine? What part of the plant is taken and how to prepare it?

French Lilac is toxic in its raw form so needs processing to neutralise the toxins. It is not available as an extract or tincture, but is manufactured into the form that we use today. This is why we say it is derived from the plant, but is not a supplement currently available to apothecaries / naturopaths for folk medicine such as migh be sold on Amazon. A similar statement would be made for Digitalis, which is derived from the foxglove flower, but which is also toxic in its raw form.

There are many plant based medicines that we use today, and which have been processed from the raw state to remove toxins. In the olden times of folk medicine, the apothecaries would do this processing, but those skills have been taken over by the chemists and pharmacists to provide cheap and easy to use potions that have quality control applied to ensure safe dosage and repeatability. I believe that we no longer use Witch Doctors here in the UK but some may use that terminology for derogatory comment.

To answer your post more directly
http://www.diabetesforecast.org/2010/dec/the-origins-of-metformin.html

 

[millenium]

French Lilac is toxic in its raw form so needs processing to neutralise the toxins. It is not available as an extract or timcture, but is manufactured into the form that we use today. This is why we say it is derived from the plant, but is not a supplement currently available to apothecaries / naturopaths for folk medicine such as migh be sold on Amazon. A similar statement would be made for Digitalis, which is derived from the foxglove flower, but which is also toxic in its raw form.

There are many plant based medicines that we use today, and which have been processed from the raw state to remove toxins. In the olden tines of folk medicine, the apothecaries would do this processing, but those skills have been taken over by the chemists and pharmacists to provide cheap and easy to use potions that have quality control applied to ensure safe dosage and repeatability. I believe that we no longer use Witch Doctors here in the UK but some may use that terminology for derogatory comment.

To answer your post more directly
http://www.diabetesforecast.org/2010/dec/the-origins-of-metformin.html

Ok. If it is toxic in its raw form then it cannot be used like chinese medicine.

 

[Oldvatr]

Ok. If it is toxic in its raw form then it cannot be used like chinese medicine.

Exactly. No one here has claimed that at all. We all use or suffer from what Big Pharma provides for us in a simple pill. It is cheap and there would be no extra benefit for us to individually synthesise it ourselves.

 

[millenium]

If you google ‘natural alternative to metformin’ you will find that Berberine is frequently mentioned.

Berberine capsules are often listed as containing 2 or 3 different herbs, and advice is usually clear that Berberine and Metformin should not be taken together because their active ingredients stack (along with their side effects).

Excellent advice.

 

[Oldvatr]

If you have actually ever tasted wonder veggie, you will see why it is called bitter. It is not only bitter cooked even when you eat it, but the horrid taste lingers.

Even the supplement in capsule form gives rise to Verps. Does also have mild laxative properties and can give belly aches and cramps. I found it relatively benign in its side effects, but then I was using full dose Metformin at the same time. But yes. there is a reason for its name.

 

[millenium]

Even the supplement in capsule form gives rise to Verps. Does also have mild laxative properties and can give belly aches and cramps. I found it relatively benign in its side effects, but then I was using full dose Metformin at the same time. But yes. there is a reason for its name.

Metformin could be your fountain of youth.

 

[Oldvatr]

Metformin could be your fountain of youth.

Metformin is demonstrably involved in general Cardio Vascular protection other than its very limited hypoglycemic effect, so yes it is demonstrated by trials to extend life by reducing the risks of CVE. This is why I have supported its use even when faced with adverse side effects, since it is one of the safest diabetic medications available, and provides hidden benefits.

Although I have seen similar claims being made for some supplements such as Bitter Melon, sadly there has been no equivalent studies that can demonstrate this longevity benefit in vivo. I am still sceptical about such claims being made without supporting evidence

 

[bulkbiker]

Metformin could be your fountain of youth.

In my case a type of fountain but certainly not for youth!

 

[Oldvatr]

In my case a type of fountain but certainly not for youth!

I think Metformin requires carbs to work and it is recommended to be eaten with food ( but with carbs aka Eastwell). In your case this advice is thwarted by your ultra low carb diet and high fat (also a lubricant at that location) will lead to the inevitable end effect.

 

[bulkbiker]

I think Metformin requires carbs to work and it is recommended to be eaten with food ( but with carbs aka Eastwell). In your case this advice is thwarted by your ultra low carb diet and high fat (also a lubricant at that location) will lead to the inevitable end effect.

Well I only took it for three weeks.. being stuck at home within a 3 yard dash of the loo... that was quite long enough.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Metformin is demonstrably involved in general Cardio Vascular protection other than its very limited hypoglycemic effect, so yes it is demonstrated by trials to extend life by reducing the risks of CVE.

In that case, why isn't it licensed for use as a heart protection drug? Or is it? If it is, I don't know of anyone prescribed it for just this reason. If it isn't, has it been considered and rejected? It is a cheap drug so no problems in that respect, or maybe it's protective benefits are too insignificant?

 

[Brunneria]

I think Metformin requires carbs to work and it is recommended to be eaten with food ( but with carbs aka Eastwell). In your case this advice is thwarted by your ultra low carb diet and high fat (also a lubricant at that location) will lead to the inevitable end effect.

There have been posts saying the opposite - anecdotal observations by posters on the forum - that their intestinal problems from Metformin have improved as they have reduced their carb intake. Hard to judge if its blood glucose lowering effect was also affected, since if they were lowering carbs, their blood glucose would have been going down anyway. Sorry, I can't remember the poster's names. It was a while back, before carb reduction became so common for newly diagnosed T2s.

I no opinion on this, because I have no experience of it.

 

[Oldvatr]

In that case, why isn't it licensed for use as a heart protection drug? Or is it? If it is, I don't know of anyone prescribed it for just this reason. If it isn't, has it been considered and rejected? It is a cheap drug so no problems in that respect, or maybe it's protective benefits are too insignificant?

It is not a heart med per se. It is contraindicated in cases where lactic acidosis would be problematic
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1971167/

The CVE effects noted are more plumbing related than pump, so it is the arteries that seem to benefit. So no, not a heart specific med at all.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...cular-disease-in-people-without-diabetes.aspx
There was a meta analysis report published last year that demonstrated the increased longevity effects of Metformin, but I no longer have the link to it.

There is also a T1D specific study in 2017
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrendo.2017.116
http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/ad...metformin-use-in-adults-with-type-1-diabetes/

And an AHA report (?) on heart related effects from 2014
http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/3/6/e001202

And another USA study
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/26/1/243

Edit to add an interesting study specific to the Heart Failure contraindication
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019483217301943

Also the AHA are currently re-evaluating Metformin for repurposing as a general heart drug, thus removing this contraindication. Not yet a NICE guideline, but watch this space......

 

[Oldvatr]

There have been posts saying the opposite - anecdotal observations by posters on the forum - that their intestinal problems from Metformin have improved as they have reduced their carb intake. Hard to judge if its blood glucose lowering effect was also affected, since if they were lowering carbs, their blood glucose would have been going down anyway. Sorry, I can't remember the poster's names. It was a while back, before carb reduction became so common for newly diagnosed T2s.

I no opinion on this, because I have no experience of it.

I found that increasing my dairy intake, expecially double cream, would trigger off a gastric event or two, so their anecdotal evidence needs to include info such as use of bulletproof coffees etc. We are all different, and my microbiome is different from yours etc. Also I now take iron supplements that causes similar problems, and I was also taking Bitter Melon, so all in all it is surprising there is anything left of me......

Metformin does have a certain reputation though, and I personally found it worked best if I take the tabs 30 mins before a meal. I could track this on my daily log I only suffer occasional upsets, less than 1 a month now, and I am on 1.5 g a day (was 2g/day until New Year) I have been using Metfartin for about 15 years now. PS my meals are currently quite carby, since I have found I am more carb tolerant since doing LC.

 

[Bluetit1802]

It is not a heart med per se. It is contraindicated in cases where lactic acidosis would be problematic
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1971167/

The CVE effects noted are more plumbing related than pump, so it is the arteries that seem to benefit. So no, not a heart specific med at all.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...cular-disease-in-people-without-diabetes.aspx
There was a meta analysis report published last year that demonstrated the increased longevity effects of Metformin, but I no longer have the link to it.

There is also a T1D specific study in 2017
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrendo.2017.116
http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/ad...metformin-use-in-adults-with-type-1-diabetes/

And an AHA report (?) on heart related effects from 2014
http://jaha.ahajournals.org/content/3/6/e001202

And another USA study
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/26/1/243

Edit to add an interesting study specific to the Heart Failure contraindication
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019483217301943

Also the AHA are currently re-evaluating Metformin for repurposing as a general heart drug, thus removing this contraindication. Not yet a NICE guideline, but watch this space......

Thank you. I have seen some of these before. I cannot see much in these studies that says Metformin is protective. At best it seems only minimal. I can see it comes out on top compared with certain other diabetes drugs (Sulphonylureas and insulin) as far as CVD mortality is concerned, but that is no surprise. We all know the damage too much insulin does. I can also see it aids weight loss, especially weight round the trunk, but as it is an appetite suppressant that is also no surprise. Weight loss will help reduce CVD risk. I really can't see much else. It is mostly suggesting more research is needed.

It will be interesting to see the AHA reports on their re-evaluations.

 

[JohnEGreen]

They should made this into a standardised extract supplement. If not, info on how to grow it in garden, harvest it and how to prepare it as a tonic for healthy people is interesting to me.

"
The herb contains galegin, which affects blood sugar. The blood sugar-lowering effect of goat's rue herb has not been well documented. More study is needed on the potential uses of the ancient herbal medicine. It is not recommended for use as a primary therapeutic agent for treatment in severe diabetes. 2

Preparation Methods & Dosage :Traditionally taken as a tea"

https://www.anniesremedy.com/galega-officinalis-goat-rue.php#Prep

 

[Oldvatr]

"
The herb contains galegin, which affects blood sugar. The blood sugar-lowering effect of goat's rue herb has not been well documented. More study is needed on the potential uses of the ancient herbal medicine. It is not recommended for use as a primary therapeutic agent for treatment in severe diabetes. 2

Preparation Methods & Dosage :Traditionally taken as a tea"

https://www.anniesremedy.com/galega-officinalis-goat-rue.php#Prep

I think experience and looking at the figures for Metformin efficacy, then it is clear that Metformin has a limited hypoglycemic effect. i.e. it does Sweet ***** Arbuckle to reduce circulating bgl levels, possibly 1 or 2 mmol/l benefit if at all, no matter how many of the pills you pop. So certainly, serious T2 symptoms will not be 'cured' by Metformin alone. The NICE guidelines do suggest using it as a primary treatment for diabetics, but not just for bgl control, and the guideline also uses diet and lifestyle changes in conjunction with Metformin. Obviously its use in folk medicine in say the middle ages would not be aware of galegin. or means to isolate it, so a herbal tea infusion makes sense. Not sure how they dealt with the toxic constituents of the plant.

 

[Oldvatr]

The OP ( @millenium ) originally asked
Is there any research on whether even with good control, glucose tolerance will still worsen?

The general HCP training and NHS/ GP POV is that T2D is progressive and for most people irreversible. I think recent research and a growing database of evidence is pointing to that being incorrect, and that many on this forum are reporting success in either regaining control or even reversing T2D to the point of having a reasonable improvement in glucose tolerance and reduction of insulin resistance. It is early days as to whether this is a stable state that can be maintained, or will things still get progressively worse even with good bgl control, so I think IMO that the jury is still out in regards to the long term prognosis.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Well all we can do is wait and see, tell you more in a few years time.