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The one show discussion

Maybe, but way take the risk of eating the carbs.....

It certainly doesn't make sense to choose higher carbs especially for someone with T2.

On a practical level however, many people watching that documentary are likely to be seeking out the Cambridge Diet stuff or going to get the shakes from Tesco and Asda after reading up on the ND, and they are likely to be on about 100g of carbs a day. I'm wondering if a bit of extra resistance training is enough to prevent those people shooting themselves in the foot with reduced RMR. It just seems unlikely based on my reading around, but maybe I'm still too pessimistic.

I think an interesting question is: if the Biggest Loser contestants in the well known study did everything they did except instead were on keto diets, would that be enough to make their outcomes so different in terms of RMR and weight regain? In a nutshell, they lost lean mass while taking part in the show, but then regained a fair bit but that didn't help raise their RMRs. Would keto have made all the difference?

I think there could be a lot more to it than purely muscle mass.
 
if the Biggest Loser contestants in the well known study did everything they did except instead were on keto diets, would that be enough to make their outcomes so different in terms of RMR and weight regain?
Are you talking severe calorie restricted keto diets or regular keto diets? Eating keto doesn't really make you lose LBM at least not to the extent that starvation does.. if at all.
 
Are you talking severe calorie restricted keto diets or regular keto diets? Eating keto doesn't really make you lose LBM at least not to the extent that starvation does.. if at all.

I'm not sure whether it would be classed as calorie restricted or regular keto tbh. I can't find info on the calories the contestants were on, from memory I think it was something like 1200-1500. But the exercise they were doing was crazy, and the aim was to be burning far in excess of the energy from food, so I guess it could be classed as severe calorie restriction?
 
hi,
Just wondering if anyone saw the discussion this evening? Unfortunately I caught the final 30 seconds but gather they were talking about diet controlled diabetes? They also mentioned that a documentary will be shown tomorrow evening, might be worth watching.
On the BBC website there is information about the Carbs program. The most interesting bit for me was they are saying that if you cook rice and potatoes allow it to cool then reheat the well known problems have been dealt with, but in the case of rice it needs to be piping hot. Also on the same vein if you freeze bread then toast it the same effect is noticed. Does this mean boil in the bag rice is ok? Please read the full article on the website.
I am grateful to this site as a result of LCHF my blood sugars are within normal range and off diabetes medication for over two years
 
I am grateful to this site as a result of LCHF my blood sugars are within normal range and off diabetes medication for over two years
Well then I would suggest that you just keep on doing what you have been doing for the last two years. After all the info on the BBC site may be new to many but not to most people here.
 
We may have to keep reminding ourselves that these programmes are aimed at the general population and not specifically at those with Diabetes or those who use lower carb diets to manage their conditions.
It may turn out to be great for non Diabetics which is a good thing.
 
We may have to keep reminding ourselves that these programmes are aimed at the general population and not specifically at those with Diabetes or those who use lower carb diets to manage their conditions.
It may turn out to be great for non Diabetics which is a good thing.
I know on a personal level thats what I do. You got me thinking. I can be quite the little zealot when it comes to LCHF.... so from now on I will not be so fundamentalist in my views. Then again how boring would that be on these forums!!!!
 
I know on a personal level thats what I do. You got me thinking. I can be quite the little zealot when it comes to LCHF.... so from now on I will not be so fundamentalist in my views. Then again how boring would that be on these forums!!!!
Thank you for posting this comment. I too have to remind myself that there are other ways of doing things that are equally valid for others to use, I am also aware that there is a big wide world out there and this is just a small window onto it. We forum dwellers here represent a minority point of view, and can form bias that detracts from the message we want to get across by being fundamentalist, as you put it.

I had a discussion yesterday with the regional DUK team at their roadshow, and there was a definite clash of cultures and disagreement on dietary approaches. The NHS nutrition experts there were also firmly wedded to the Eatwell/ starch is good school, so again I was shown to be in a minority in the real world. But what I do works well for me, so I am not bothered, and I use this forum to discuss my approach to diet so as to help others discover that alternatives that may well work for them too.

I do not find it boring at all.
 
Cheers for that. I have been on this journey since Feb 2018. I have been fit all my life but last few years (back injury and laziness) things got out of hand, however I digress!

The LCHF I knew about but never tried. As my circumstances changed I went for it. It worked. I think when something as dramatic as the keto life works for you you can be evangelical and its not a bad thing but people respond differently to the way they want to be spoken to. Dont take this the wrong way anyone... but I dont actually care what people say to me on here or in life in general. So at times I probably come across abrupt its nothing personal, but I also think people are too sensitive about things on forums. Maybe too protective.

We are all capable of clanish behaviour..... but if you disagree with someone then say it, and your reasons for it. We are all entitled to our opinions... but not our own facts.

That escalated quickly lmao
 
I am also aware that there is a big wide world out there and this is just a small window onto it.

Too true. I was guilty of talking about my eating plan to a non-diabetic very fit friend, and later discovered I had sent her into a spell of depression because she assumed I was "getting at her" for eating bananas and bread. She is a very healthy vegetarian eater, doesn't eat processed rubbish etc etc. Apparently I really upset her, as that was never my intention.
 
Cheers for that. I have been on this journey since Feb 2018. I have been fit all my life but last few years (back injury and laziness) things got out of hand, however I digress!

The LCHF I knew about but never tried. As my circumstances changed I went for it. It worked. I think when something as dramatic as the keto life works for you you can be evangelical and its not a bad thing but people respond differently to the way they want to be spoken to. Dont take this the wrong way anyone... but I dont actually care what people say to me on here or in life in general. So at times I probably come across abrupt its nothing personal, but I also think people are too sensitive about things on forums. Maybe too protective.

We are all capable of clanish behaviour..... but if you disagree with someone then say it, and your reasons for it. We are all entitled to our opinions... but not our own facts.

That escalated quickly lmao
Woops! I welcome robust discussion on the forum too, and I was brung up in the era of debating societies so had practice that others here probably did not experience. I used LCHF successfully for a while, but then started getting hypos as I reduced my meds, so decided to run it just above keto threshold. I now use fasting to drop me back into keto mode when I need to. I find being fat adapted helps me deal with the occasional hypo by allowing my brain to operate at lower bgl levels than it used to, so for me it was a useful experience. But I was also starting to lose too much blubber from my derriere which made sitting in the bath a tad uncomfortable, so now I have a more relaxed approach to carbs, and have found that my IR is much better now. So I support LCHF, but it is no longer a one horse race in my eyes.
 
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Too true. I was guilty of talking about my eating plan to a non-diabetic very fit friend, and later discovered I had sent her into a spell of depression because she assumed I was "getting at her" for eating bananas and bread. She is a very healthy vegetarian eater, doesn't eat processed rubbish etc etc. Apparently I really upset her, as that was never my intention.
Know what you mean. Last night I had a blazing row with my daughter regarding an article she read out on the dangers of protein, especially animal protein. The article was describing the Finnish trial into protein that was recently published, and I have posted it in its own thread here on the Forum.
As she read the article and used it to justify her stance that we need to change to whole food plant based vegan diet NOW, and it became clear ro me that the article had a certain bias that I found to be subversive, and often incorrect in its statements of fact. The article does the usual linking of animal products with T2D, obesity, colon cancer, and many other comorbidities that used to be the realm of saturated fats, but is now anything that is of animal origin, including Vit B supplements, woolen or silk, etc. The whole gamut.

So I found the original paper that the article was supposedly based on, and found that it said nothing like that what the article spouted as a fountain of facts. Nope. The study did not claim any of it. But the article was written by a Doctor at a London Hospital Research dept who presumably had qualifications coming from the opposite end to where his mouth was, so it must be right eh? IMHO the said doctor was receiving a research grant from an interested body.

I can understand someone becoming vegan or vegetarian for moral or environment reasons, but I do not find their health claims to be evidence based.

So my daughter is upset with me because I choose to question her and disregard what she knows is the absolute truth. Who am I to talk about diet - what do I know? I am not qualified to spout forth on such important and lifesaving matters. But I am the main hunter gatherer / chef / skivvy etc so unless she moves out and does it herself then the status quo here at chez moi is not going to change. She is 37 and living on the bank of Mum and Dad, so I win.
 
I think an interesting question is: if the Biggest Loser contestants in the well known study did everything they did except instead were on keto diets, would that be enough to make their outcomes so different in terms of RMR and weight regain? In a nutshell, they lost lean mass while taking part in the show, but then regained a fair bit but that didn't help raise their RMRs. Would keto have made all the difference?

I think there could be a lot more to it than purely muscle mass.

I'm sure there is, and every little helps. I'm also not sure that a low RMR is necessarily a bad thing as it can be a measure of how efficient the body is. So if you take a group of people and give them 24hrs on a Kreb's cycle, the ones that can do the most work for the fewest calories would be the most efficient and arguably fittest. But if they overconsumed calories, would store those as fat because that's just what the body does.

I think you can see some of these effects if you look at different athletes. So compare say a long distance runner with a 100m sprinter. The sprinter would have more muscle mass because they need it for that explosive power. But they'd be at a disadvantage against a marathon runner because they're carrying a lot more weight and need to fuel it.

They're extremes though, and so are 'bread and circuses' stunts like the Biggest Loser. Contestants are incentivised to lose the most weight, not end up the healthiest and especially because that has to fit with the production schedule. For everyone else, the goal should be to find a sustainable and enjoyable way to eat and live.

For me, I'd struggle with the ND simply because I really don't like shakes, and especially artificially flavored shakes. If Optifast came in sausage and bacon flavors, I'd probably enjoy them more than strawberry or chocolate. I think there's an irony in diet shakes being dessert flavored, when for dieting, desserts should be reduced or avoided. ND appears to work though, for it's intended purpose, ie a supervised crash diet.

I think that's also one of the challenges, ie an NHS approved process vs something we can choose to do and experiment on our own bodies. If it's official, it needs to be safe given the 'first, do no harm' rules. If it's unofficial, it just needs to avoid falling foul of health or medical marketing and labelling restrictions. I think this is where LCHF and keto fall at the moment, especially as they're contrary to the official 'Eatwell' guidance. But there have been more studies and trials showing benefits, and often no clinically significant harm, so there's growing pressure for official acceptance.

Part of that would be defining terminology, ie recommended carb levels for LC or keto, and most importantly how and when to advise people to follow those diets, ie a keto or high protein diet probably wouldn't be advisable for someone with renal problems. Part of that should be preserving or increasing muscle, simply because muscle helps burn calories.
 
I think this is where LCHF and keto fall at the moment, especially as they're contrary to the official 'Eatwell' guidance. But there have been more studies and trials showing benefits, and often no clinically significant harm, so there's growing pressure for official acceptance.
Exactly unlike the Eatwell which has little to no evidence to support it yet it is the orthodoxy.. a sad state of affairs.
 
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