Type 2 Eat to the meter, or play the long game?

[Brunneria]

Several posts have been deleted from this thread for unpleasant and unnecessary comments.
No need to squabble. Or post with sarcasm or criticism.

This thread was started with the following proposals:

Firstly, I respect that discussion of this nature can be quite prickly. I’d therefore like to open by making it clear that nothing I’m about to say is meant as a disparaging attitude toward anyone’s diabetes management. Food is very personal, and it goes without saying that we are all free to manage our condition as we please. I’m asking this question purely out of curiosity to see which camp we all sit in. If you’re uncomfortable with anything I say, or the manner in which I say it, then please accept my apologies and ignore the discussion rather than take the view that it’s an attack on your choices

And then again:

Again, I know that people are naturally defensive of their own choices, so please read the first paragraph again if you’re considering expressing disapproval of my question or the way in which I have framed it. Open discussion invited though of course. A or B answers would be a bit boring

Anyone unable to post in this tolerant manner is welcome to move on without posting.
Further bickering posts will be deleted.

 

[Mr_Pot]

I think it is reasonable to suggest this thread is divisive, separating those on a low carb diet into two camps when in fact it is a spectrum where people place themselves according to the severity of the disease, lifestyle choice, other medical problems and many other factors. While it hasn't been stated, I can't be the only one who detects a implication that keto is doing it properly (the long game), while low carb (eating to the meter) is second best. As @Fenn says, this is not helpful to the newly diagnosed who are likely to deduce that they have to follow a keto diet to have any real success.

 

[jpscloud]

I've just had half a glass of wine, which in my empty-tummy state will probably interfere with my ability to make sense.

However... I'll plod on! I want to do my best to manage (and since 2015 have often not done my best, I'm ashamed to say) my metabolic disease. If there is a shadow of a hope that a particular way of eating will result in long term improvement to insulin sensitivity, or even a cure, I want a piece of that, so I'm now reading The Diabetes Code following on from The Obesity Code. A little (very limited) experimentation recently has shown me that low carb, high fat and fasting produces some remarkable results in my blood sugars and my general feeling of well-being, so something is good there.

I'll continue to "manage" because I'm a bit too good at lapsing. I'll also continue to experiment with low carb, high fat, keto and fasting to see how good I can get at not lapsing, all the time looking at that hope of "cure".

Although I was diagnosed in 2015, I feel like a newbie because until recently I still thought high fat makes you fat and saturated fats which will give you a heart attack. Once I felt convinced by arguments to the contrary, low carbing was suddenly on the table (low carb low fat is some sort of torture, and one I couldn't do to myself).

Soon I plan to try adventures in using a keto meter, another managing technique. I suppose I'm hedging... I'm fairly convinced by the arguments, now I want to prove it to myself in practice using meters (it may also provide some motivation in tough times). And I'm another data nerd, I love those numbers and graphs!

 

[Spl@]

This thread has got me thinking re glucose overload. I eat more at the weekend. May have a drink or 2 as well. Some munchies in front of a film. Bag of pnuts or some frazzles (weak spot) sometimes both...... Yeah shoot me.

Anyway. My bg always runs higher Mondays and runs down normally to Friday. So that minor excess at the weekend that is not enough to cause any rise over 7 maybe 7.5 will lift me for the week on my FBg. If I don't cheat on the weekend my fb stays low.

Being pre does give me more wiggle room as my system is still working and will blunt any bad individual choices but the FBg shows it up even if the post meal is low.

 

[DCUKMod]

Folks can we stick with the topic and not get onto whether the topic has value or not.

Thank you.

 

[Resurgam]

Although I was diagnosed in 2015, I feel like a newbie because until recently I still thought high fat makes you fat and saturated fats which will give you a heart attack. Once I felt convinced by arguments to the contrary, low carbing was suddenly on the table (low carb low fat is some sort of torture, and one I couldn't do to myself).

Soon I plan to try adventures in using a keto meter, another managing technique. I suppose I'm hedging... I'm fairly convinced by the arguments, now I want to prove it to myself in practice using meters (it may also provide some motivation in tough times). And I'm another data nerd, I love those numbers and graphs!

In my New Diet Revolution Dr Atkins categorically states - do not try to do low carb low fat as it will interfere with fat burning - that was the last version of the book I believe, from 2003, revised from several previous versions - so the 'do not try low fat' advice is hardly new, just ignored.

 

[Member496333]

I've just had half a glass of wine, which in my empty-tummy state will probably interfere with my ability to make sense.

However... I'll plod on! I want to do my best to manage (and since 2015 have often not done my best, I'm ashamed to say) my metabolic disease. If there is a shadow of a hope that a particular way of eating will result in long term improvement to insulin sensitivity, or even a cure, I want a piece of that, so I'm now reading The Diabetes Code following on from The Obesity Code. A little (very limited) experimentation recently has shown me that low carb, high fat and fasting produces some remarkable results in my blood sugars and my general feeling of well-being, so something is good there.

I'll continue to "manage" because I'm a bit too good at lapsing. I'll also continue to experiment with low carb, high fat, keto and fasting to see how good I can get at not lapsing, all the time looking at that hope of "cure".

Although I was diagnosed in 2015, I feel like a newbie because until recently I still thought high fat makes you fat and saturated fats which will give you a heart attack. Once I felt convinced by arguments to the contrary, low carbing was suddenly on the table (low carb low fat is some sort of torture, and one I couldn't do to myself).

Soon I plan to try adventures in using a keto meter, another managing technique. I suppose I'm hedging... I'm fairly convinced by the arguments, now I want to prove it to myself in practice using meters (it may also provide some motivation in tough times). And I'm another data nerd, I love those numbers and graphs!

The Diabetes Code is a fabulous book. Jason Fung is a trailblazer in the treatment of metabolic syndrome, and he has such a great way with words. Being ~63kg I have never read The Obesity Code, but I’m confident that it’s equally as captivating and informative

 

[jpscloud]

In my New Diet Revolution Dr Atkins categorically states - do not try to do low carb low fat as it will interfere with fat burning - that was the last version of the book I believe, from 2003, revised from several previous versions - so the 'do not try low fat' advice is hardly new, just ignored.

I think I wasn't sufficiently motivated to educate myself properly until now, and just accepted canon on fats. I'm morbidly obese, but interestingly my mum verges on underweight. Her DN when she was diagnosed as pre-diabetic (but not overweight) some 15 years ago almost killed her, by telling her all fats were off the menu. Mum followed that advice so well she starved herself almost to death, despite me threatening to march her into the Dr's surgery. Eventually she consulted the Dr who told her fats were back on the menu.

My DN still gave me the low fat advice - low fat yoghurt or fat free yoghurt was on the list of "good" foods - in 2015.

Being obese and desperately looking for ways to not be, I conflated high dietary fat with high dietary fat and sugar combined, which got me into this mess in the first place, I think. I understand differently now though it is still quite a recent epiphany.

Edit: I meant that eating high fat, high sugar foods on a daily basis got me into this mess, not the conflation!

 

[jpscloud]

The Diabetes Code is a fabulous book. Jason Fung is a trailblazer in the treatment of metabolic syndrome, and he has such a great way with words. Being ~63kg I have never read The Obesity Code, but I’m confident that it’s equally as captivating and informative

The Obesity Code made sense of something that I was really puzzled about - how come diets don't work? The answer that insulin resistance from constant eating (and I have been the textbook example of a constant eater) causes weight gain, then attempts at weight loss by restricting calories only tampers with the body's homeostasis while making you thoroughly miserable is a very convincing one and I'm going to see if I can't sort both obesity and diabetes out using Jason Fung's theories. I'm grateful to posters on this forum for pointing me in that direction

Edit: I should have said "diets don't work in the long term"

 

[bulkbiker]

The Obesity Code made sense of something that I was really puzzled about - how come diets don't work? The answer that insulin resistance from constant eating (and I have been the textbook example of a constant eater) causes weight gain, then attempts at weight loss by restricting calories only tampers with the body's homeostasis while making you thoroughly miserable is a very convincing one and I'm going to see if I can't sort both obesity and diabetes out using Jason Fung's theories. I'm grateful to posters on this forum for pointing me in that direction

I found his clarity of thought and easy to understand explanations completely life saving.

 

[JAT1]

Fascinating thread to read (even though I'm type 1). I'm thinking a thread inspired by this discussion could be initiated for type 1s if it's not already in existence somewhere here:
injecting as much insulin as needed so you can eat what you feel like; or
limiting carbs as much as possible and injecting less.
It's interesting how much appetite controls us.

 

[Member496333]

Fascinating thread to read (even though I'm type 1). I'm thinking a thread inspired by this discussion could be initiated for type 1s if it's not already in existence somewhere here:
injecting as much insulin as needed so you can eat what you feel like; or
limiting carbs as much as possible and injecting less.
It's interesting how much appetite controls us.

Potentially even more multifaceted since T1s can become insulin resistant?

 

[Charis1213]

I think it is reasonable to suggest this thread is divisive, separating those on a low carb diet into two camps when in fact it is a spectrum where people place themselves according to the severity of the disease, lifestyle choice, other medical problems and many other factors. While it hasn't been stated, I can't be the only one who detects a implication that keto is doing it properly (the long game), while low carb (eating to the meter) is second best. As @Fenn says, this is not helpful to the newly diagnosed who are likely to deduce that they have to follow a keto diet to have any real success.

I'm not going to keep on keto forever I am going try a few carbs when i have got my numbers down , I like variety in foods and i find keto very restrictive . If i find the numbers rise i may have to stick to keto but i am going to give a try and see .

 

[MikeyJ]

Interesting discussion, in my current approach I wouldn't consider full keto but useful to read the 'topping up' theory. I don't religiously test now but did so at diagnosis (March 2018) to understand what foods to steer clear of. I've reduced my HbA1c to 36 from 81 in 10 months whilst still taking on a level of carbs so 'if ain't broke don't fix it' is my current outlook for now. Aiming to strip your body of glucose storage and the discipline involved could be somewhat overwhelming for T2 newbies but it's certainly a road to consider for the data hungry elite low carb practitioners out there.

 

[Resurgam]

I think that two years from diagnosis and being low carb all that time has reduced my insulin resistance - but if I overeat carbs, my weight goes up.
I have always had that problem since I left home in my late teens, living in a rather challenging environment of damp and poor hygiene for some years might well have been the cause of a lot of problems. I had ulcers from H pylori, but the multiple doses of antibiotics for the next to pneumonia bronchial infection I got cured it - apparently.

 

[Scott-C]

Fascinating thread to read (even though I'm type 1). I'm thinking a thread inspired by this discussion could be initiated for type 1s if it's not already in existence somewhere here:
injecting as much insulin as needed so you can eat what you feel like; or
limiting carbs as much as possible and injecting less.
It's interesting how much appetite controls us.

Sorry, but I've got to say that I think those questions are irrelevant in a T1 context.

T1 biology is fundamentally different to T2. We have much more latitude with carbs.

With T1, the main question is here is a meal, how much insulin do I need for it?

That doesn't mean injecting industrial volumes of insulin, it just means applying a bit of moderation with portion sizes.

We get a lot of newly dx'd T1s signing up here for advice. Because there are many more T2s here than T1s, they can become swamped by the persistent "carbs are bad, avoid insulin" message, which might be fine in a T2 context, but is wrong in a T1 context.

I can think of several T1 posters who have ended up wary, and in some instances, terrified, of eating a modest amount of carbs.

That is totally unnecessary, but it happens because there is so much comment about carbs being negative and the poor newly dx'd T1 doesn't yet realise that the noise is coming from someone with an entirely different condition.

If you were to start a thread posing your questions, the answers would probably be, right, that's a bit of cheesecake, call it 40g, mibbe needs 6u, but still got 2u declining from last bolus, and trending down, so maybe tweak to 5. The answer would, hopefully, never be I can't eat that because people on a website with a different condition told me to not eat carbs.

Edited by moderator to remove inflammatory comments.

 

[Mbaker]

Fascinating thread @Jim Lahey, it's hard to keep a middle path and not offend even with your guarded intro, good attempt anyway.

When I got into this ever increasing not so exclusive club, I tested like it was going out of fashion to see the impact of food and exercise. It was the exercise dropping my blood glucose from 8's to 4's, that gave me a clue that this wretched condition could be managed; even though I should have joined the dots when I went from 20's to 16 in the first week, not knowing what I was doing.

I don't know where I sit due to my copious amount of consumed nuts and extra protein rich food which can be carnivore biased sometimes. I suppose I am LCHF / LCHP / Keto HP with IF and heavy weights. This keeps my fbg between 3.8 (on the intense weights days) and 4.5 and PP below around 5.7.

I have a fundamental mental block against rice, potatoes, pasta, bread and processed foods as I had several complications which I never want to experience again, and truly thought I had months left - this sharpened my focus. I go as far to say that I "hate" mid to high GI carbs with a passion, like it's the enemy. I know some fellow members struggled at Christmas, which I know must be tough, but I didn't, diabetes really did a number on my mental attitude towards foods. I have had a soft landing in my family structure due to the varied meals, I am very lucky.

Testing for me over the last 2 years is more to do with n of 1 scenarios to do with trying to understand my official HbA1c, seeing if I am spiking, testing the accuracy of my several meters, testing extended fasting, testing higher protein and heavier weights. The only additional carb that has got in within the last 4 months is some parsnip, which with my usual significant portion size gave me a PP of 5.6.

I am focusing reducing my HOMA IR which is currently circa 0.97 and low inflammation. I think Dr Jason Fung's philosophy of focusing on reducing insulin is a great proxy, I did see in one of his videos the reference to more insulin just spreading the glucose around the body. I definitely am looking at the long game, so will do all in my capacity to manage to the best of my ability; my hypothesis is work hard for as short a time as possible to maximise insulin sensitivity, which I physically able (cues from Shawn Baker).
(up late due to customer onsite IT work grrrr)

 

[Member496333]

Fascinating thread @Jim Lahey, it's hard to keep a middle path and not offend even with your guarded intro, good attempt anyway.

When I got into this ever increasing not so exclusive club, I tested like it was going out of fashion to see the impact of food and exercise. It was the exercise dropping my blood glucose from 8's to 4's, that gave me a clue that this wretched condition could be managed; even though I should have joined the dots when I went from 20's to 16 in the first week, not knowing what I was doing.

I don't know where I sit due to my copious amount of consumed nuts and extra protein rich food which can be carnivore biased sometimes. I suppose I am LCHF / LCHP / Keto HP with IF and heavy weights. This keeps my fbg between 3.8 (on the intense weights days) and 4.5 and PP below around 5.7.

I have a fundamental mental block against rice, potatoes, pasta, bread and processed foods as I had several complications which I never want to experience again, and truly thought I had months left - this sharpened my focus. I go as far to say that I "hate" mid to high GI carbs with a passion, like it's the enemy. I know some fellow members struggled at Christmas, which I know must be tough, but I didn't, diabetes really did a number on my mental attitude towards foods. I have had a soft landing in my family structure due to the varied meals, I am very lucky.

Testing for me over the last 2 years is more to do with n of 1 scenarios to do with trying to understand my official HbA1c, seeing if I am spiking, testing the accuracy of my several meters, testing extended fasting, testing higher protein and heavier weights. The only additional carb that has got in within the last 4 months is some parsnip, which with my usual significant portion size gave me a PP of 5.6.

I am focusing reducing my HOMA IR which is currently circa 0.97 and low inflammation. I think Dr Jason Fung's philosophy of focusing on reducing insulin is a great proxy, I did see in one of his videos the reference to more insulin just spreading the glucose around the body. I definitely am looking at the long game, so will do all in my capacity to manage to the best of my ability; my hypothesis is work hard for as short a time as possible to maximise insulin sensitivity, which I physically able (cues from Shawn Baker).
(up late due to customer onsite IT work grrrr)

Great post. Thanks for sharing

Coincidentally I was listening to Dr. Shawn Baker on Pete Evans’ Recipes for Life podcast just a couple of days ago. Very interesting fellow

Edited to add a link for those of the Apple persuasion;
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast...-pete-evans/id1306697084?mt=2&i=1000426911702

 

[Krystyna23040]

I go as far to say that I "hate" mid to high GI carbs with a passion, like it's the enemy. I know some fellow members struggled at Christmas, which I know must be tough, but I didn't, diabetes really did a number on my mental attitude towards foods.

That's exactly how I feel about carbs. We went to a lovely hotel for 3 days over Christmas and I stayed keto throughout our stay. The hotel provided a wonderful selection of cheese which I ate instead of the sugary deserts. I actually averaged about 15g of carbs a day but did eat huge amounts of fish meat and cheese.

 

[bulkbiker]

Fascinating thread to read (even though I'm type 1). I'm thinking a thread inspired by this discussion could be initiated for type 1s if it's not already in existence somewhere here:
injecting as much insulin as needed so you can eat what you feel like; or
limiting carbs as much as possible and injecting less.
It's interesting how much appetite controls us.

There have been some studies done.. of which this is one
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29735574
Which seem to suggest that a low carb diet can be very beneficial for T1's too.
However I am not one so couldn't possibly advocate it in the same way that I do for T2.