Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

[Jbicheno]

Hi Jbicheno,
I have been working all through the outbreak in constant contact with the public, adults and kids alike and I can understand how you are feeling, kids do not socially distance and the adults are even worse. I live in Aberdeen and even in the midst of this new outbreak I see people here take off face masks and hand it to there mate to wear.

As far as I recall, government guide lines are such that for a prolonged period,of time (above 3-4 hours) a face mask or shield becomes ineffective, this is why office staff are not required to wear one. You are in the class with the kids all day. This would be an easy thing to sight when not supplying you or teachers with PPE.

But if the above is true, prolonged period, then I would not stress yourself to much, face coverings seem to be more for brief contact with strangers in a shop or on public transport than a full day with the same people each day.

From day one WHO and other bodies have said face masks do not stop you catching covid,
The mask is to stop you spreading it.

Thanks for that insight however, I only work mornings, 4 hours 3 days and 3 hours 2 days so a face covering is fine for me. Also, as stated by others, they can be changed throughout the day. I’m unsure what you mean about the prolonged periods of time with the same people. I have no idea who these people are in contact with outside of school. In offices I believe the risks have been mitigated by back to back seating, screens, social distancing etc. No such arrangement in schools.

 

[LooperCat]

I hope the majority of teachers are young, fit and not vulnerable. If those on here are any sort of cross-section it doesn't sound like there is much chance of children getting a proper education any time soon.

Most aren’t, from what I’ve experienced in the staff room. Maybe just the PE teachers!

 

[JRT]

Us humans do some strange things when you just don't think. On the golf course we all touch putters, Three Musketeers style, after we finish rather than the usual hand shake and even I, a desperate stickler to risks, offered up the handle rather than the other end!!

Old habits die hard! I . Gavin Williamson was on TV this morning talking about A Level results. Not surprisingly he didnt come across well! For me it just feels increasingly chaotic with so many groups with concerns popping up. I think there are so many areas of concern from testing, to corruption to the economy people may be struggling to keep up and even overwhelmed to point switch off. Add to that a government that is reactive and only sticks its head over the parapet when there is no alternative and we have a problem. Everyone acknowledges the need for children to be back in education. I think constant reporting that the majority of childeren be safe,whether it's true or not,has put the issue on a back burner so to speak. I think the government are also more than happy to dismiss concerns as union trouble making and to encourage negative stereotypes of teaching and those that work in the profession. I did have a look on Twitter and did see someone else had started a petition about PPE and vulnerable staff and pupils.
We need a strong voice. When was the last time you saw a news article about shielders/high risk? I've seen a couple one on tv about plight of those with learning disabilities and how been isolated. There have been articles about care homes and the terrible effect of social isolation on residents. There are sympathetic and concerned comments but then it dies down.!
Sadly until there is an unavoidable crisis I dont think anything will change

 

[Tannith]

In Germany, where schools have been reopening in recent weeks, the environment agency has called for classrooms to be ventilated for 45 minutes after every lesson. It added that classrooms, offices and homes should also be ventilated with wide-open windows after every cough or sneeze https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-53730372/page/2

 

[There is no Spoon]

I’m unsure what you mean about the prolonged periods of time with the same people.

It mean when and if an out break occurs you can trace the people from an office setting where it is the same people in the same office every day compared to a pub that is full of strangers who will be harder to trace,

The concern is containment, not safety.

 

[bulkbiker]

Fascinating twitter thread on masks and their ineffectiveness in surgical settings!

https://twitter.com/ClimateDepot/status/1293876034098671617

 

[There is no Spoon]

In offices I believe the risks have been mitigated by back to back seating, screens, social distancing etc.

How can a 2ft piece of plastic stop an air born virus in a air conditioned office? 2 meter social distancing a sneeze can travel 8 meters. I have been working in these conditions for months now these measures they are not there to prevent you catching covid they are there to stop you spreading it.

I completely understand you are deeply concerned for your health I am not trying to belittle that.

 

[There is no Spoon]

For example, simply changing a mask for a fresh one every few hours would work for one of your points. Where is the evidence that being in a room for several hours is not harmful? Viral load is a real issue.

These are not my opinions they are current government guidelines or were things change fast.

Changing face mask ever few hours you are supposed to be doing that any way I have at least 2 for every 8 hour shift I work.
The idea, to the degree that I understand it, is after a few hours they become saturated with germs like a water resistant gazebo once it starts letting water through it may as well not be there.

Therefore having a room full of people with gazebo masks for over 3-4 hours is the same as a room full of people with out masks. This, as far as I understand it, is the reason mask are not needed in offices according to the government.

I agree that it makes no sense.
But then again they have had to issue warnings in the states to stop drinking hand sanitiser.

 

[There is no Spoon]

And if just one of the people in that classroom is infected and therefore freely breathing virus over the rest of the people enclosed in the space with them?

And you think wearing a cheap piece of cloth will stop that.

Change your mask every lesson it is not of a sufficient quality to stop you becoming infected by an air born virus. I am sorry I m not trying to fear monger here I am in the same boat myself in the middle of a new outbreak area, I have to deal with people who refuse to wear mask that could be breathing the virus on to me endangering my family.

I wear a face mask but do not for one second think it is protecting me from breathing in an air born virus.

 

[Max68]

Masks are merely to do that, protect to an extent others from your coughs and sneezes, that's it. Visors may stop a direct hit from a cough or sneeze but viruses can get in around the sides! So if I wear a mask and no one else does and I am Covid negative it's a pretty pointless piece of cloth. If I am Covid negative and everyone wears a mask and a Covid positive person talks, sings, sneezes or coughs the viral particles might not travel as far but if I am in a room with them for 40 minutes minimum chances are I am going to get some of it regardless. Only thing that might help is a full divers mask along with an oxygen container strapped to my back!!

Hence part of the reason why my petition didn't include a request for PPE as all in all in a closed, unventilated classroom spending a minimum of 45 minutes with the same people I actually find it pretty pointless. Health workers have probably the best PPE, (If they can get hold of it) and I suspect their job has one of the highest infection rates.

It's not just the health aspect but the mental aspect that if I am absolutely honest worries me,. Call it fear if you like, then ok I am guilty of being fearful. I'm fearful of the fact that this virus can spread asymptomatically so even if someone is coughing or sneezing you have no way of knowing who has and who hasn't got it. This means you aren't going to know for possibly a minimum of six days until you develop symptoms yourself, unless of course you happen to be asymptomatic. Then if you have an onset of symptoms you have another week or so to see which way it will go, good or bad!! But you aren't only in for one day so in a nutshell you have this day to day rolling worry where you are constantly wondering if this is the day you have picked it up, or will tomorrow be the day and you have absolutely no idea at the end of each school day whether you have contracted it and can therefore pass on to families.

The "only" possible way you could have schools 100% safe would be if there was a 100% immediate test at the front gate and even then if someone was carrying the virus they might just have spread it to everyone waiting in the queue!

 

[There is no Spoon]

The "only" possible way you could have schools 100% safe would be

Keep em closed.

 

[Mr_Pot]

Fascinating twitter thread on masks and their ineffectiveness in surgical settings!

https://twitter.com/ClimateDepot/status/1293876034098671617

Climate change deniers branch out into mask denying. They quote an old paper about surgical infections, not respiratory tract infections, in a one month trial in an obscure hospital. It can't have been very impressive as it clearly didn't catch on.

 

[Max68]

Keep em closed.

I would in fact keep them open but only on a voluntary basis and with clinically vulnerable protected. I have a colleague who has diabetes and she went in when it was partly open. Personally I think she is mad but she obviously thinks not and that is her choice. There are obviously hundreds of thousands of families and children and staff who want to go back and I haven't got a problem with that, but lets not fine the cautious parents or worried kids and lets protect those who the Government remember told were vulnerable. If Boris and his cronies hadn't opened there mouths I would be none the wiser!

 

[bulkbiker]

Climate change deniers branch out into mask denying. They quote an old paper about surgical infections, not respiratory tract infections, in a one month trial in an obscure hospital. It can't have been very impressive as it clearly didn't catch on.

Think there are abut 20 papers quoted on that one thread.. but maybe you missed this one from yesterday.
http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/13523664

 

[Max68]

Found this updated info re schools on the Gov.uk website. Pretty much waffle that states you just need to wash your hands, bin a tissue and stay at least 1 metre away (which of course you can't). Clinically vulnerable have all been erased by the looks of it and looking at the paragraph below it's obvious where the Governments priorities lie.

"Lower academic achievement also translates into long-term economic costs due to having a less well-qualified workforce. This affects the standard of living that today’s pupils will have over the course of their entire life. For many households, school closures have also affected their ability to work. As the economy begins to recover, we need to remove this barrier so parents and carers can return to work."

It's a long read but it comes across that Covid has all but gone. Boris clearly reckons several thousand dead is worth it if a few more make it to Oxford, Cambridge or Eton!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...us-outbreak/guidance-for-full-opening-schools

 

[Jbicheno]

My daughter in law, who is expecting, is a primary school teacher. She tells me the government advice has changed for pregnant ladies. They have been told there is some evidence of women passing the covid infection on to their newborn. As a result, they will either need to work in isolation or at home. Her head has done a risk assessment on her previously and has said the government advice is changing almost daily. She is going to wait until nearer the return date but will make the necessary changes.
We can only hope the government remembers there are other vulnerable people at school before September.

 

[Tannith]

Masks are merely to do that, protect to an extent others from your coughs and sneezes, that's it. Visors may stop a direct hit from a cough or sneeze but viruses can get in around the sides! So if I wear a mask and no one else does and I am Covid negative it's a pretty pointless piece of cloth. If I am Covid negative and everyone wears a mask and a Covid positive person talks, sings, sneezes or coughs the viral particles might not travel as far but if I am in a room with them for 40 minutes minimum chances are I am going to get some of it regardless. Only thing that might help is a full divers mask along with an oxygen container strapped to my back!!

Hence part of the reason why my petition didn't include a request for PPE as all in all in a closed, unventilated classroom spending a minimum of 45 minutes with the same people I actually find it pretty pointless. Health workers have probably the best PPE, (If they can get hold of it) and I suspect their job has one of the highest infection rates.

It's not just the health aspect but the mental aspect that if I am absolutely honest worries me,. Call it fear if you like, then ok I am guilty of being fearful. I'm fearful of the fact that this virus can spread asymptomatically so even if someone is coughing or sneezing you have no way of knowing who has and who hasn't got it. This means you aren't going to know for possibly a minimum of six days until you develop symptoms yourself, unless of course you happen to be asymptomatic. Then if you have an onset of symptoms you have another week or so to see which way it will go, good or bad!! But you aren't only in for one day so in a nutshell you have this day to day rolling worry where you are constantly wondering if this is the day you have picked it up, or will tomorrow be the day and you have absolutely no idea at the end of each school day whether you have contracted it and can therefore pass on to families.

The "only" possible way you could have schools 100% safe would be if there was a 100% immediate test at the front gate and even then if someone was carrying the virus they might just have spread it to everyone waiting in the queue!

"The "only" possible way you could have schools 100% safe would be if there was a 100% immediate test at the front gate and even then if someone was carrying the virus they might just have spread it to everyone waiting in the queue!["
Trained dogs could do that! As to fear it's totally normal and reasonable. This virus is not only a killer but at least 10% of it's victims have ongoing post viral syndrome and other damage. Naturally you are worried. The only people who don't seem to be are the young who don't think they will get ill - though many do. There was a 30 year old female doctor on TV a couple of days ago who had gone blind in one eye as a result of covid and had no idea whether she would get her sight back. Kate Garraway's husband apprently has holes in his heart. BE AFRAID. I know I am, and I am one of the lucky ones who can and do stay indoors (retired, though once a teacher).

 

[LooperCat]

And you think wearing a cheap piece of cloth will stop that.

Change your mask every lesson it is not of a sufficient quality to stop you becoming infected by an air born virus. I am sorry I m not trying to fear monger here I am in the same boat myself in the middle of a new outbreak area, I have to deal with people who refuse to wear mask that could be breathing the virus on to me endangering my family.

I wear a face mask but do not for one second think it is protecting me from breathing in an air born virus.

No need for the patronising head-banging-a-wall emoji, I know exactly how a variety of masks work, how long they are effective for and what particles they stop. This virus is transmitted in droplets and by contact. It’s not been proven to be airborne, although that theory is out there, undergoing further scrutiny. As the science is updated, so will peoples’ practice, hopefully.

Did I even once mention wearing a cheap piece of cloth? No. Don’t put words in my mouth/keyboard. However, even a “cheap piece of cloth” would reduce the amount of droplets hitting your mucous membranes from somebody else, and help to contain your own lumps of Covid juice. And in a disease where viral load seems to have quite an effect on the severity of symptoms, something is going to be worse than nothing.

Schools are generally absolutely filthy places, with poor ventilation (even modern buildings), and in comprehensives the toilets are often closed outside of break time to prevent kids congregating there, causing mischief and blocking the toilets with all manner of things. Hand washing is a rarity; cleanliness next to impossible. I’d always clean my desk, computer and phone for the day on arrival when supply teaching and the (hospital grade) wipes I used would be absolutely stinking afterwards. If one person in your “bubble” is carrying any bug, you can surmise that at least half the people you share that space with will catch it, albeit not always with symptoms - that’s why kids and teachers alike often get ill when schools go back in September.

 

[Max68]

Two articles from the last day or so seemingly confirming that the thing "does" hang around in the air. I had my suspicions anyway considering the potency of infection and is one of the main reasons behind my concern in closed classrooms. A "smoking gun" if there ever was one.

Interestingly one article suggests tall people may be at more risk so that's at least one thing I have in my favour because I'm a short ass!!

https://bgr.com/2020/08/12/coronavirus-spread-aerosols-air-infectious-florida-study/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...sol-outbreaks-social-distancing-a9667706.html

 

[JRT]

The "only" possible way you could have schools 100% safe would be if there was a 100% immediate test at the front gate and even then if someone was carrying the virus they might just have spread it to everyone waiting in the queue![
Trained dogs could do that. As to fear it's totally normal and reasonable. This virus is not only a killer but at least 10% of it's victims have ongoing post viral syndrome and other damage. Naturally you are worried. The only people who don't seem to be are the young who don't think they will get ill - though many do. There was a 30 year old female doctor on TV a couple of days ago who had gone blind in one eye as a result of covid and had no idea whether she would get her sight back. Kate Garraway's husband apprently has holes in his heart. BE AFRAID. I know I am, and I am one of the lucky ones who can and do stay indoors (retired, though once a teacher).

Oh dear, I must admit I hadn't read that bit of Gov.UK but for me it reinforces the thought that anyone who may raise issues of risk or safety of those involved is a "barrier" to the greater good.
I don't know about anyone else but I'm definitely starting to feel "gas lighted" . On the one hand there are all the precautions in other workplaces. We are told not to even share serving implements or condiments the risk is so great! If you do visit a friend and need to use their toilet you are supposed to clean everything you come into contact with. Tens of thousands of people are dead and the government at best are incapable and yet it goes on lurching from one headline to the next.
Any concern for the shielded / high risk has disappeared ,although I'm not sure it was ever really a concern. More a case of lock yourself away so you dont burden the NHS.
I think we are on our own with the onus being on us to negotiate our individual needs with our employers as best we can.
I stepped aside from my ongoing battle with my employer for two weeks. A lot can happen in two weeks.
They have changed the name of the care home.
As of September they will no longer provide care for those who need any nursing input other than from community nurses or anyone who has anything other than mild dementia. Nurses on a permanent contract can transfer to one of their other homes,as can residents if they are suitable.
I'm still on a work app that let's me see shifts that are available and who is working. The majority of staff who were there during the outbreak have left,including management. All that are left are a select group who will transfer to the other homes.
There will be no one left to answer awkward questions about the twenty plus residents who died that month. Any relatives that might question their disappearance will not have been in the building and even if are will be too preoccupied trying to rehome their relatives. After a bit of thought I'm hard pressed to think of a resident who would meet the new criteria.
This afternoon I received an email asking me to go for an antibody test as they want to continue to keep Covid out of the building.!
There has never been any acknowledgement of the Covid deaths there,and I dont think there ever will be.
So I have a choice. I can continue to work with my union and contine the endless chess game of me trying to prove my work environment is not a safe one. I know the outcome already. Or I could just walk away,the only thing I have to lose is some holiday pay.
Maybe the only thing I can do is report my concerns to CQC.
Personally I have taken no risks and maintained social distancing with visits from friends and family in the garden.
Over the past week influenced by signs of life going on I have wondered if I'm being over cautious. Even Fred Dineage is back on the news! Of course his situation is very different. The other day friends suggested collecting me and driving me over for a meeting at another friends in her garden. All are extremely sensible and have relatives who are shielding. The friend we are visiting is type 1. I said yes but I am very nervous!
All we can do is protect ourselves as much as possible . Anything can happen in the next days,weeks or months.
Max or anyone else in the same situation all you can initially do is negotiate with your employer. Unfortunately that could put you in a situation of incredible risk. Also the stress will be terrible. I spent one 12 hour shift in an environment that was very high risk and it's not an experience I wish to repeat.
Your only other option may be to throw yourself at mercy of GP and get them to sign you off sick due to stress. Not ideal but it may buy you time.