I get the Zaps when my carbs are really low. Amputee.

[katsoo]

Howdy,
I am prediabetic, and decided not to cross over into diabetes with a strong will and determination. I need help though. I love doing keto, and was successful at losing all my extra weight about 4 years ago. I slowly went to more and more carbs, though, and am even bigger than before by about 5 pounds, and need to lose about 50 again. So, I decided to do keto again, got into ketosis and that's when it happened. The ZAPS.

First, I lost my left leg, above knee in 2009. I used to be an avid speed walker before it happened. It was thick blood, just as my dad who was diagnosed the same year, followed by 5 very large blood clots in my thigh. It took 7 doctors later to finally give me the proper diagnosis..PAD. Now I am perfect with my blood thinners, and get checked between 2 weeks to a month each time for my INR. I follow all instructions, and take it seriously. The rest of my life is mayhem, but I like it that way.

So this time, Im getting into ketosis, and feeling pretty darn good. Then the zaps started. The zaps are 1-2 second 'zaps' of the same exact pain I felt when my leg was rotting and dying. A pain worse than no- medication birth. Not kidding. And I would have anywhere from 5 to 10 a minute. These lasted more than 24 hours, and I still have them now, just one an hour or so, much more managable. Im not crying in total frustration anymore, so I'm good.

I take gabapentin, which almost always keeps the 'zaps' away. But I used to drink alcohol, and about 24-48 hours later I'd get the zaps for maybe a couple hours, so I had to stop drinking altogether. I figured it was probably my not knowing about my high bg at the time, plus dehydration perhaps? All I know is, those zaps yesterday were like hell on earth. I scream for the second it lasts, then I can carry on a conversation like it's nothing. It's weird, I think. But phantom pains are real lemme tell you. (and the scream, then talking normally makes my husband and my daughter laugh, a lot. Rotten I tell ya. ha!)

I decided to fix my weight problem about 2 weeks ago and was slowly getting my carbs down to under 20. Ketosis strips are nice and dark pink to light purple. All is well, then all was not well. I started really keeping an eye on my blood sugar as well, because I had another bad number in my labs about 3 weeks ago. My bg numbers are all over the place! But I noticed as I added more good carbs, like a little half cup of oatmeal, or an apple, I felt better and better with my zaps. Im ok now. Yay!

It sucks, because I know how great keto is. I guess it's just not meant to be. I am at a loss what to do. I guess raise my carbs healthily/ and keep counting calories. Boring, but doable. However, I drank a sf soda(I don't usually but hear it could mess with numbers) and some sweet potato fries for my carbs tonight, and up went the bg. Higher than I've ever had before, 207. Guess I have that metabolic syndrome, I dont know. My numbers had been 120s most of the 2 weeks, and fasting always under 100 on keto diet. I really want to know if any folks out there have had this strange thing happen to them. My dad was a diabetic, lost a lot of toes, and eventually died of a severe stroke. No thanks. I need to get this mess under control. Any advice?

 

[JoKalsbeek]

I am doing a complete guess here, but could it be you were low on electrolytes and maybe a wee bit dehydrated? Just wondering, because it also happened after alcohol, and that dehydrates too. When you start keto, and the carbs leave, the fluid they retain goes with it, and flushes out electrolytes as well. Same happens with alcohol.

Add in some electrolyte supplement, maybe some B12 (you could be deficient if you're on metformin? And that too can cause nerve issues), see whether it makes a difference. If it does, you can slowly cut the carbs again.

Like I said, it's basically a stab in the dark, but the only thing alcohol and keto really have in common far as I know, is that both dehydrate (initially) and deplete electrolytes. My uncle was a double amputee and he'd scream like a banshee in mid-sentence too, and would calmly tell us to ignore it in the next breath. Wouldn't wish it on anybody, it seemed like agony.

Just a guess though. I hope no-one'll whip me for it, because I have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[zand]

Thank you for posting.

Like Jo, I also have no idea what I am talking about. I am wondering if it's the extra fat we have when doing keto. Maybe conventional medicine has got it right here in that a diet high in fats can be a risk factor for PAD? I know the blood thinners should help, but maybe the fatty diet is still a problem? Just don't know, but I sometimes get those type of pains too, not often, but I'll monitor when they happen now, so thanks for sharing. I wish I had the answer for you.

 

[katsoo]

I am doing a complete guess here, but could it be you were low on electrolytes and maybe a wee bit dehydrated? Just wondering, because it also happened after alcohol, and that dehydrates too. When you start keto, and the carbs leave, the fluid they retain goes with it, and flushes out electrolytes as well. Same happens with alcohol.

Add in some electrolyte supplement, maybe some B12 (you could be deficient if you're on metformin? And that too can cause nerve issues), see whether it makes a difference. If it does, you can slowly cut the carbs again.

Like I said, it's basically a stab in the dark, but the only thing alcohol and keto really have in common far as I know, is that both dehydrate (initially) and deplete electrolytes. My uncle was a double amputee and he'd scream like a banshee in mid-sentence too, and would calmly tell us to ignore it in the next breath. Wouldn't wish it on anybody, it seemed like agony.

Just a guess though. I hope no-one'll whip me for it, because I have no idea what I'm talking about.

You know, I did think about that, and drank one of those sf powerades, drank a ton of water, and took both a potassium tab and a magnesium tab, to no avail. Let me tell you I was desperate to try anything! But I definitely thought of how dehydration plays it's part. So, because my keto experience was really a stab in the dark a few years ago, I never knew that being dehydrated on keto was just for a little while. So, the dehydration part eventually goes away on keto, then? I don't take any meds for diabetes (yet) and really don't want to. That's why I'm bound and determined to get the weight off, and eat better.
I love the story of your uncle, I can just see us having a conversation, screaming one second and carrying on the next. Ha! Thank you so much.

 

[Resurgam]

Do you need to go down to below 20gm of carbs to be in ketosis?
Most people seem to be happy enough at around 50 gm a day, perhaps a little less if wishing to lose weight.
It isn't some sort of magic, but intended to be a fine tuned way of eating - I use Dr Atkins New Diet Revolution as a guide, and I wonder if it might help you to be more balanced - going from under 20 to eating oatmeal and sweet potato is going to be a bit of a shock. Although You ate only a small amount they are really high in carbs, and there really are no 'good carbs' - they should all be regarded the same way, as they act in the same way, both sugars and starches raise your blood glucose levels.
I suspect that you became dehydrated and developed an imbalance of electrolytes which is quite common after a couple of weeks doing very restricted eating - grains in particular are lacking in micronutrients. I always eat a very varied diet so that the 40 gm of carbs per day I eat seems to provide what I need - though I do have a couple of multivitamin and mineral tablet a week when I remember. I remember to take them more in hot weather, when I do get cramps but they go away when I take a couple of mugs of water.
The Induction phase of Atkins is 2 weeks on 20gm per day - then more carbs are added - I think that you have shown yourself why that is.

 

[katsoo]

Thank you for posting.

Like Jo, I also have no idea what I am talking about. I am wondering if it's the extra fat we have when doing keto. Maybe conventional medicine has got it right here in that a diet high in fats can be a risk factor for PAD? I know the blood thinners should help, but maybe the fatty diet is still a problem? Just don't know, but I sometimes get those type of pains too, not often, but I'll monitor when they happen now, so thanks for sharing. I wish I had the answer for you.

My doc did tell me he wanted me on something like the Mediterrean diet. I happen to LOVE that diet because I used to live in Greece as a military dependent, and got to learn lots of delicious recipes there from my landlady. So somewhere in this ol body of mine, I've got to find the right balance that keeps me losing weight, but doesn't spike my bg or give me zaps. I write down EVERYTHING, even when I'm popping a couple of almonds in my mouth. Hopefully a pattern will emerge and I can find that sweet spot.

 

[katsoo]

Do you need to go down to below 20gm of carbs to be in ketosis?
Most people seem to be happy enough at around 50 gm a day, perhaps a little less if wishing to lose weight.
It isn't some sort of magic, but intended to be a fine tuned way of eating - I use Dr Atkins New Diet Revolution as a guide, and I wonder if it might help you to be more balanced - going from under 20 to eating oatmeal and sweet potato is going to be a bit of a shock. Although You ate only a small amount they are really high in carbs, and there really are no 'good carbs' - they should all be regarded the same way, as they act in the same way, both sugars and starches raise your blood glucose levels.
I suspect that you became dehydrated and developed an imbalance of electrolytes which is quite common after a couple of weeks doing very restricted eating - grains in particular are lacking in micronutrients. I always eat a very varied diet so that the 40 gm of carbs per day I eat seems to provide what I need - though I do have a couple of multivitamin and mineral tablet a week when I remember. I remember to take them more in hot weather, when I do get cramps but they go away when I take a couple of mugs of water.
The Induction phase of Atkins is 2 weeks on 20gm per day - then more carbs are added - I think that you have shown yourself why that is.

Honestly, I really don't know if I can achieve ketosis on more carbs. I've just eaten the fat and the protein, and the carbs were always my veggies and the occasional berries. I honestly don't know how one would reach 50 gm a day without eating grains, because the vegetables allowed don't have a whole lot of carbs in them. I remember doing Atkins about 20 years ago and really enjoyed it. I will check into it and see what it has to offer, because I forgot. I'm the classic yoyo dieter. I just can't be, anymore. Too scary!

 

[JoKalsbeek]

Honestly, I really don't know if I can achieve ketosis on more carbs. I've just eaten the fat and the protein, and the carbs were always my veggies and the occasional berries. I honestly don't know how one would reach 50 gm a day without eating grains, because the vegetables allowed don't have a whole lot of carbs in them. I remember doing Atkins about 20 years ago and really enjoyed it. I will check into it and see what it has to offer, because I forgot. I'm the classic yoyo dieter. I just can't be, anymore. Too scary!

You don't absolutely have to be in ketosis to get blood sugar control. I got mine to behave at I think 40 to 75 grams of carbs a day, I just was better controlled at 20, and when it turned out even lower helped my (many) other issues, I went for ridiculously low carb with a carnivore diet. But yeah, if you cut carbs your body needs a while (up to two weeks or thereabouts) to stabilise and get used to the new status quo, then it should be alright (If these pains are indeed brought on by carb flu, it's the worst carb flu I've ever heard of!). Adding in electrolytes should help, and it might be a case of you needing a bit more to have an affect. (I don't bother with drinks, I just pop pills). No idea if it'll help with the pain, but all in all... It's not keto-or-bust, a low carb Mediterranean diet that's medium low carb could well do the trick, especially as you're not diabetic just yet. Experiment and find out what works for you. Oh, and as for how to achieve 50 grams a day for instance, maybe add in some crackers to go with nice cheeses or slices of fish, (I used to love Wasa's Delicate Crisp Rosemary & Sea Salt, at 5,5 grams of carbs per piece. Dunno if they have those there though, but similar maybe?). There's HiLo bread and what have you, that might be an option? A small amount of pulses, small portion of carrots and peas, that sort of thing. The kind of carbs that take a little while to hit the system, nothing fast and furious. (Never thought I'd see the day where I'd be recommending carby foods.... But just measure well and don't go overboard. And let your meter know what's working for you! Test often and keep a record of what you ate!)

 

[katsoo]

You don't absolutely have to be in ketosis to get blood sugar control. I got mine to behave at I think 40 to 75 grams of carbs a day, I just was better controlled at 20, and when it turned out even lower helped my (many) other issues, I went for ridiculously low carb with a carnivore diet. But yeah, if you cut carbs your body needs a while (up to two weeks or thereabouts) to stabilise and get used to the new status quo, then it should be alright (If these pains are indeed brought on by carb flu, it's the worst carb flu I've ever heard of!). Adding in electrolytes should help, and it might be a case of you needing a bit more to have an affect. (I don't bother with drinks, I just pop pills). No idea if it'll help with the pain, but all in all... It's not keto-or-bust, a low carb Mediterranean diet that's medium low carb could well do the trick, especially as you're not diabetic just yet. Experiment and find out what works for you. Oh, and as for how to achieve 50 grams a day for instance, maybe add in some crackers to go with nice cheeses or slices of fish, (I used to love Wasa's Delicate Crisp Rosemary & Sea Salt, at 5,5 grams of carbs per piece. Dunno if they have those there though, but similar maybe?). There's HiLo bread and what have you, that might be an option? A small amount of pulses, small portion of carrots and peas, that sort of thing. The kind of carbs that take a little while to hit the system, nothing fast and furious. (Never thought I'd see the day where I'd be recommending carby foods.... But just measure well and don't go overboard. And let your meter know what's working for you! Test often and keep a record of what you ate!)

Hmm, you know from what everyone is saying, I do think it is a case of 'carb flu'. I just never thought of it acting like this! I am most definitely experimenting, and do keep a good detailed record of symptoms, foods, bg, sleep, etc. I do love doing keto, but maybe it's true that I need to just go up to 50-75 or thereabouts on the carbs. I need to keep studying and see where I can make this work. I wish there was a magic formula, I'd be happy to just follow it. I think maybe I could try easing my way down. Start at about 75 with good slow carbs that wont spike too quickly, and slowly get used to less and less. I appreciate so much being able to bounce this off the good folks here, and I'm getting very good solid advice. Thank you!

 

[JoKalsbeek]

Hmm, you know from what everyone is saying, I do think it is a case of 'carb flu'. I just never thought of it acting like this! I am most definitely experimenting, and do keep a good detailed record of symptoms, foods, bg, sleep, etc. I do love doing keto, but maybe it's true that I need to just go up to 50-75 or thereabouts on the carbs. I need to keep studying and see where I can make this work. I wish there was a magic formula, I'd be happy to just follow it. I think maybe I could try easing my way down. Start at about 75 with good slow carbs that wont spike too quickly, and slowly get used to less and less. I appreciate so much being able to bounce this off the good folks here, and I'm getting very good solid advice. Thank you!

Sounds like a solid plan to me! We all had to figure it out as we went along, your hurdles are just a little extra... Extra. There's no one size fits all, because needs differ. Don't give up and keep those meticulous notes going; something will emerge that works.

 

[katsoo]

Sounds like a solid plan to me! We all had to figure it out as we went along, your hurdles are just a little extra... Extra. There's no one size fits all, because needs differ. Don't give up and keep those meticulous notes going; something will emerge that works.

I certainly shall. I have been reading and learning a lot here. Plethora of not only info, but wisdom in general.