Fasting and the PreBreakfast and PostBreakfast BG.

[Estragon]

I’m starting to get to understand yet another wrinkle on these evidenced-base results. And this time around it is to do with the above.

OK, and after a rested sleep:

Overnight Fasting & PreBreakfast = 6.4
I ate breakfast.
I waited for 3 hours and 45 minutes and then tested again = 8.5

Q1 - Now, as a T2 on 2mg of Metformin a day, is this something that’s acceptable?

Q2 - In a Non-Diab would these two be nearer? Granted, a non-Diab would have a lower overnight number, but would this lift of 2 points be something they’d also experience?

Q3 - Or would their numbers also reflect, be closer to their overnight fasting?

Thanks in advance for ALL your replies. What a Group we are !

 

[In Response]

If you Google something like "Libre non-diabetes" (sorry, can't remember exactly what search i used) you will see graphs for people without diabetes and get an idea of what they see in terms of rises (and falls, when exercising) in blood sugars for different types of food and activities.
There are now quite a few around from students to sports men and women.

 

[bulkbiker]

Q1 - Now, as a T2 on 2mg of Metformin a day, is this something that’s acceptable?

Are you happy with it? I wouldn't be so no

However the big Q is what was breakfast?

Q2 - In a Non-Diab would these two be nearer? Granted, a non-Diab would have a lower overnight number, but would this lift of 2 points be something they’d also experience?

Probably not after almost 4 hours.. their insulin would have brought the numbers down far faster. Which answers Q3 too.

 

[Estragon]

There are now quite a few around from students to sports men and women.

Sure, and this where I’m not being able in separating the wood for the trees. I suppose I’m needing Forum Members personal or near to experiential comments. And thank you!

@bulkbiker - Thank you for your direct and directed approach to me.

Breakfast included 30grams of Carbs. cheese on Toast, Tea and coffee. Thanks for asking.

Until I know something different, I wasn’t suggesting I was in any way “happy”, I was enquiring if this is in any way acceptable. And acceptable meaning that in my slow progress towards lower numbers, is this something that this will improve matters or not. During the rest of the day I can achieve 5.5.

At my age, 69, can expect “better”? I’ve accepted that over the years I’d been mistreating my Endocrine system. I’ve read your phenomenal reductions in your HBA1C numbers. I don’t know your age, but does a longer exposure to endocrine misuse, me, produce extended/longer time in getting to lower numbers?

Again, @bulkbiker , thanks for your feedback.

 

[Lamont D]

I’m starting to get to understand yet another wrinkle on these evidenced-base results. And this time around it is to do with the above.

OK, and after a rested sleep:

Overnight Fasting & PreBreakfast = 6.4
I ate breakfast.
I waited for 3 hours and 45 minutes and then tested again = 8.5

Q1 - Now, as a T2 on 2mg of Metformin a day, is this something that’s acceptable?

Q2 - In a Non-Diab would these two be nearer? Granted, a non-Diab would have a lower overnight number, but would this lift of 2 points be something they’d also experience?

Q3 - Or would their numbers also reflect, be closer to their overnight fasting?

Thanks in advance for ALL your replies. What a Group we are !

1. No, your fasting levels maybe because of dawn phenomenon could be construed as prediabetic.
2. It all depends on how your balance of hormones in response to what you ate, what did you eat?
3. Their is a difference between healthy non diabetics and unhealthy non diabetics.
If the symptoms are similar it doesn't mean that you have a tendency to be diabetic.
As a non diabetic RH. My levels are always in the normal levels range and so should healthy non diabetics after fasting. There are conditions were the patients go hypo and like me is non diabetic. There are many that go hypo because of other pancreatic conditions such as insulinoma.

I do believe that I have made it more complicated.

Stay safe.

 

[HSSS]

Sure, and this where I’m not being able in separating the wood for the trees. I suppose I’m needing Forum Members personal or near to experiential comments. And thank you!

@bulkbiker - Thank you for your direct and directed approach to me.

Breakfast included 30grams of Carbs. cheese on Toast, Tea and coffee. Thanks for asking.

Until I know something different, I wasn’t suggesting I was in any way “happy”, I was enquiring if this is in any way acceptable. And acceptable meaning that in my slow progress towards lower numbers, is this something that this will improve matters or not. During the rest of the day I can achieve 5.5.

At my age, 69, can expect “better”? I’ve accepted that over the years I’d been mistreating my Endocrine system. I’ve read your phenomenal reductions in your HBA1C numbers. I don’t know your age, but does a longer exposure to endocrine misuse, me, produce extended/longer time in getting to lower numbers?

Again, @bulkbiker , thanks for your feedback.

My fasting is typically the same as yours and it’s not acceptable to me. Though during the day I’m pleased if I get into the 5’s as it’s too often stuck in the 6’s. I actually want to reach 4’s and 5’s pre meals but it’s proving elusive. Meals never take me more than 2mmol over pre eating, often less at the 2hr mark. I’m 50 and likely had insulin resistance issues for 20yrs diagnosed 3 yrs ago.

30g of carbs is what I aim for in a day not a meal. Breakfast is often the meal where carbs are the most problematic to deal with due to insulin resistance being highest then (and if you’ve also got fasting numbers in the prediabetic range already even more of an issue). I wouldn’t eat toast, especially not early in the day. A different choice would definitely bring those numbers closer. Usually we check after 2 hrs not nearly 4hrs. A non diabetic would be back close to the pre meal reading in most situations after wars let alone 4.
I suspect both your fasting and daily figures would improve if you didn’t hit the system so hard first thing. Why not give it a try for a few weeks.

 

[Estragon]

I do believe that I have made it more complicated.

No, you’ve failed miserably. I understood all you’ve said .

So, I’ve got some substantial way to go, if I get there at all.

 

[bulkbiker]

cheese on Toast,

So the fat in the cheese probably extended the spike from the toast whilst lowering it slightly hence the more than 2 mmol/l rise after nearly 4 hours.

but "acceptable" is a very subjective measure.

Personally I would have had the cheese and not the toast and avoided the spike totally. Well in fact I would have had the coffee with some double cream and nothing to eat at all.

At my age, 69, can expect “better”? I’ve accepted that over the years I’d been mistreating my Endocrine system. I’ve read your phenomenal reductions in your HBA1C numbers. I don’t know your age, but does a longer exposure to endocrine misuse, me, produce extended/longer time in getting to lower numbers?

I'm 59 at the moment.. diagnosed at 53 prediabetic for a while before that undoubtedly and morbidly obese for years before that too.

From my extensive reading I'd say its never too late to aim for lower numbers and the best way to go about it is ketogenic eating and some intermittent fasting.

 

[Estragon]

@HSSS and @bulkbiker - Wow! You’ve given me, literally, so much FOOD for thought that I’m going to respond to your stunning replies ASAP.

 

[Estragon]

So the fat in the cheese probably extended the spike from the toast whilst lowering it slightly hence the more than 2 mmol/l rise after nearly 4 hours.

O...K.....? Are you saying that the 8.4 would have remained longer ‘cos of the cheese? Or are you saying that if I had JUST eaten the Toast I’d have had, maybe, a higher number but without the cheese it would have come down faster? Is that possible? Anyways, you’re saying ANY Brekkie Carbs are not good. I have to say that when I’m on another brekkie: No Fat Cottage Cheese, ground up almonds, Lindwoods Multi grain, I call my dust, Milk and half an apple : this is good for me. I fill up and often have the balance the next day. But this can get boring..... However, your comment about extending the Spikes AND at brekkie is the “Road to Nowhere” - Think “Talking Heads”.

30g of carbs is what I aim for in a day not a meal. Breakfast is often the meal where carbs are the most problematic to deal with due to insulin resistance being highest then (and if you’ve also got fasting numbers in the prediabetic range already even more of an issue).

Ahah! I didn’t know or appreciate the importance of this: “due to insulin resistance being highest then” I ain’t gonna forget that now.

My fasting is typically the same as yours and it’s not acceptable to me. Though during the day I’m pleased if I get into the 5’s as it’s too often stuck in the 6’s. I actually want to reach 4’s and 5’s pre meals but it’s proving elusive.

Those Sticky-Sixes! I know this Landscape well. Yes, I’m now going to change direction of the Tanker, known as The Good Ship Estragon to calmer, morning-waters.

So, as an alternative to my Cottage Cheese Combo, I want cooked/grilled food in the morning that is low on FAT. Bacon, eggs, mushrooms, pilchards, sardines I’ve also experimented on.

You guys are really the best!

 

[HSSS]

So, as an alternative to my Cottage Cheese Combo, I want cooked/grilled food in the morning that is low on FAT. Bacon, eggs, mushrooms, pilchards, sardines I’ve also experimented on.

Why are you focused on low fat? Fat keeps you feeling full.

 

[bulkbiker]

Are you saying that the 8.4 would have remained longer ‘cos of the cheese? Or are you saying that if I had JUST eaten the Toast I’d have had, maybe, a higher number but without the cheese it would have come down faster? Is that possible?

Possibly yes..
Fat has been known to "flatten" a spike but prolong it... in T1's the so called "pizza effect" where a high carb meal when combined with fat leads to a longer and lower spike.

Best thing to do is try a piece of toast and measure the spike.
Or just eat the cheese and don't have the spike at all.
Or have bacon and eggs
or have nothing to eat.

 

[Estragon]

Why are you focused on low fat?

Why not? I get fats from cheese too and other animal products.

Fat keeps you feeling full.

Oh, I wasn’t aware of that. I eat loads of nuts Almonds...

 

[MrsA2]

And theres always the no breakfast option. Just a way of extending the fast and giving the body more time to clear cells out.
"Break fast" simply means your first meal of the day, which can be whatever time you like, and whatever foods you like (that don't spike bg of course). So that break fast could be chicken curry at 9 am or yoghurt and blueberries at 3 pm or even steak and mushrooms at 19:00.