• Guest, the forum is undergoing some upgrades and so the usual themes will be unavailable for a few days. In the meantime, you can use the forum like normal. We'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the 2025 Survey »

New study - not good results for keto

Yet more vegan propaganda...
Vegan trial Graph.png
PCRM is Neal Barnards mouthpiece.. the one that did this study for reversing T2....

Or rather not reversing T2 ...
 
I was keeping an eye out for this but didn’t spot the conflict. I missed pcrm. Where was that?

found it. The funding! And barnard is an author.
 
Last edited:
Is it biassed? Here is an opening introduction section
"Extreme carbohydrate restriction can profoundly affect diet
quality, typically curtailing or eliminating fruits, vegetables,
whole grains, and legumes and increasing consumption of animal
products."
They wear it on their sleeves.

Followed by
"
Very-low-carbohydrate diets may lack vitamins,
minerals, fiber, and phytochemicals found in fruits, vegetables,
and whole grains (6–8)."

Now I personally do not want or need phytochemicals since these are the plant's defence mechanism and are designed to do us harm. They offer no proof that the diet is by design devoid of vitamins or minerals. This is an open statement with no justification and is an expression of bias intent.

Now considering the following statements:
"ketogenic diet isreported to have multiple micronutrient shortfalls, often lackingin vitamin K, linolenic acid, and water-soluble vitamins excludingvitamin B12"
Now this is nonsense since animal products are known to offer better biovalent forms of the vitamins especially D3 and K2, B6 and B12, vitamin A, as well as Lipoic Acid (ALA) and choline. The only ones that are lacking are E and C if you do not eat offal. Most keto diets include some vegetables, so these are also covered. Worst case would be a carnivore diet, and this diet does recommend offal.

It continues
"
Ketogenic diets are typically low in fiber needed not only for
healthful intestinal function but also for microbial production
of beneficial colonic short-chain fatty acids (12), which enhance
nutrient absorption, stimulate the release of satiety hormones,
improve immune function, and have anti-inflammatory and
anti-carcinogenic effects"
NO! dietary fibre does not help nutrient absorbtion - it simply provides some local nutrients to assist the gut fora in the lower intestine, but is not contributing to our nutrient intake which happens in the upper bowel only. The saiety hormone Grehlin is generated from the upper bowel in response to fat content, not fibre. The anti inflammatory and anti cancer effects are not proven. Fibre merely assists in reducing transit time.

I am sure I could write a book on the pseudo science in this report, but I am hanging up my boots here. It is a very suspect report.
 
Last edited:
@Oldvatr I saw those things and questioned them but could not evidence why I knew they were wrong. Can always rely on you for the explanation. I hope it’s only this report you’re hanging your boots up on.
 
HSSS said:
I was keeping an eye out for this but didn’t spot the conflict. I missed pcrm. Where was that?

found it. The funding! And barnard is an author. So if this a review of other peoples studies rather than their own is it selective studies reviewed? Cherry picking of the findings of valid studies? Or something to dig into more thoroughly……
Click to expand...
Simply lies.
Barnard and co have form for it..
 
It doesn't appear to have been peer reviewed and the list of conflicts of interest is the best part of the report.
 
I have to step in on this
"Low-carbohydrate diets are also typically high in saturated fat
and cholesterol (10"
This is ******** The cholesterol is generated by our own bodies since it needs the chemical markers that are specific to our own body enzyme signalling ssystem. Any cholesterol in the diet is stripped apart and recycled as required, not because it is there, but because it has some bricks we can reuse. Choline is what we need to create LDL and HDL and to repair damaged mitochondria. Not egg ectoplasm or cows cholesterol. We manufacture it ourselves, and if required, we will scavenge a shortfall from our own muscle tissue and proteins. Hence the need for HF in LCHF, to prevent scavenging.. The quoted passage is an attempt to spread fear and loathing and is untrue.
 
Whoops. This report really is terrible. For T1D, it states the following
"Although ketogenic diets can improve glycemia in pediatric
patients with type 1 diabetes, they are generally not used in
this population due to the risk of malnutrition, failure to thrive,
reduced bone density, hyperlipidemia, poor sleep, amenorrhea,
and hypoglycemia. In addition, mood and behavior may be
adversely affected"
This is almost criminal and totally unproven in any study I have seen. And apart from hypoglycemia which can occur and which T1d are familiar with, the rest of it is total baloney. None of those claims are backed by science.
 
Dr Neal Barnard will not just go away. I don't wish him ill but why won't he just be quiet now, enough already. The results of the persons in this thread alone, wipe the floor with his RTC, with no Doctor assistance.

It is so frustrating that he has been allowed to shape guidelines and minds with no substance behind his claims, nor have I seen one set of his own personal health stats, compared to others. I believe you should be an advert for your beliefs, to show some credibility.

 
Mbaker said:
Dr Neal Barnard will not just go away. I don't wish him ill but why won't he just be quiet now, enough already. The results of the persons in this thread alone, wipe the floor with his RTC, with no Doctor assistance.

It is so frustrating that he has been allowed to shape guidelines and minds with no substance behind his claims, nor have I seen one set of his own personal health stats, compared to others. I believe you should be an advert for your beliefs, to show some credibility.

Click to expand...
Disagree slightly with your closing statement. In another thread on giving up smoking, I posted a reference to Alan Carr's book on the subject. I found the advice helped me, but I have to report that Alan Carr died from lung cancer. I consider his advice to remain valid. I am proof of that.
 
I prefer systematic reviews which begin describing the process they used to choose the commented articles. It seems to me, on 2021, that the authors are cherrypicking some articles.

An example of cherrypicking in this review is the fact that the authors had the courage to cite the infamous K.Hall experiment (ref 27): 20 individuals, 2 weeks. I will repeat: two weeks, 2000 mg of sodium intake, losing electrolytes (amateurs...). I know, you know, and, of course, the researchers know, that the fat adaptation process requires at least four to six weeks. What kind of result are they expecting?

So, an unbiased gathering of articles, from pubmed, and other databases, at least from 2010 to present time, some kind filtering, treating specifically type 2 diabetes or diabetes in general, with forest plot, etc, would be very more useful.
 
Mbaker said:
Dr Neal Barnard will not just go away. I don't wish him ill but why won't he just be quiet now, enough already. The results of the persons in this thread alone, wipe the floor with his RTC, with no Doctor assistance.

It is so frustrating that he has been allowed to shape guidelines and minds with no substance behind his claims, nor have I seen one set of his own personal health stats, compared to others. I believe you should be an advert for your beliefs, to show some credibility.

Click to expand...
didn't shawn baker have insulin resistant level of Hb1Ac? and he is a carnivore zero carb was it the "physiological" insulin resistance they are talking about?
 
Oldvatr said:
Disagree slightly with your closing statement. In another thread on giving up smoking, I posted a reference to Alan Carr's book on the subject. I found the advice helped me, but I have to report that Alan Carr died from lung cancer. I consider his advice to remain valid. I am proof of that.
Click to expand...
No problem. I have no respect for Dr Neal Barnard, as I know he has knowledge on all sides, but is doubling down for ideological reasons, with the privileged and highly influential position he is in disgusts me.

He would know how rubbish the epidemiology is on red meat, keto, he has seen the Virta results, those of Dr Westman, Dr Unwin, Dr Fung, Dr Atkins, Dr Loren Cordain and tens of 1000's anecdotes. He has been able to see for over 20 years the results of the Paleo guys and gals (to my point, compare just how they have all faired physically over the years), and he understands the technical insights regarding food, nutrition, farming, hunter gather diets, the whole picture. No doubt he has seen the growth of this site, dietdoctor etc. He has seen the anecdotes of those who do his chemistry experiment wrong, especially the youngsters - littered over YouTube and similar.

I am passionate about this, as like with Ancel Keys, real lives and families suffer the impact of his mantra, yet his published results are literally at the bottom of any I have seen that are alternative to the SAD diets.
 
Drfarxan said:
didn't shawn baker have insulin resistant level of Hb1Ac? and he is a carnivore zero carb was it the "physiological" insulin resistance they are talking about?
Click to expand...
If you actually view his actual blood panel results after he was on the carnivore diet for a while, then you would know that yes his fasting blood sugar and hba1c are in the prediabetic range, but his fasting insulin was 2,6. So he is not T2D and not hyperinulinemic.

He is actually a very active athlete, and this profile is consistent with athletes on low carb. The insulin gets restricted by adrenaline due to aerobic exercise. He is a successful athlete, which again gives strength to his claims. You are fast to criticize, but I bet not as fast or as fit as he is.
 
Mbaker said:
No problem. I have no respect for Dr Neal Barnard, as I know he has knowledge on all sides, but is doubling down for ideological reasons, with the privileged and highly influential position he is in disgusts me.

He would know how rubbish the epidemiology is on red meat, keto, he has seen the Virta results, those of Dr Westman, Dr Unwin, Dr Fung, Dr Atkins, Dr Loren Cordain and tens of 1000's anecdotes. He has been able to see for over 20 years the results of the Paleo guys and gals (to my point, compare just how they have all faired physically over the years), and he understands the technical insights regarding food, nutrition, farming, hunter gather diets, the whole picture. No doubt he has seen the growth of this site, dietdoctor etc. He has seen the anecdotes of those who do his chemistry experiment wrong, especially the youngsters - littered over YouTube and similar.

I am passionate about this, as like with Ancel Keys, real lives and families suffer the impact of his mantra, yet his published results are literally at the bottom of any I have seen that are alternative to the SAD diets.
Click to expand...

I agree that his published results are only a marginal improvement on SAD and Eatwell. and as the graph from his study report clearly shows, the effect of the benefit from his trials creeps back up after a while.
 
Back
Top