New evidence shows it's a waste of time.

[HSSS]

I am trying to persuade you to at least look at the other side.

why do you assume I haven’t? Just because I’m not fully agreeing with you?

 

[RobertJ]

And the message if you feel they were worthwhile is “you’re a sheep that will believe anything”. Equally extremist.

Quite right we should be able to discuss it - without being told it’s killing everyone and to blame for every world evil.

dead, unable to function normally, pancreatic damage or late period? Umm let me choose?

The message was not a lie nor has it been proved to be scientifically or otherwise. It wasn’t fully accurate agreed. It didn’t perform as well as hoped ie 100%. That is not the same at all

Same old extremist, black and white, unproven arguments and you wonder why it gets dismissed exactly the same way the people who see it your way dismiss a vaccine positive message.

Ever considered the reason your case was mild was because of the vaccine ? Then boosted by natural immunity having survived the exposure.

I'm sorry, are you saying that children, teenagers and young adults should have taken the vaccine to protect older, more vulnerable people? The moment we discovered the vaccine does not prevent infection or transmission, this stopped being an argument. It's also just not fair, but that's another issue.

If you don't have Covid, you can't spread Covid. Put another way: you either have it or you don't. Being unvaccinated does not make a 25-year-old more dangerous to his 88-year-old grandmother than if that 25-year-old had the jab. Sure, do a test before visiting Granny but being vaccinated or unvaccinated has no bearing. Unvaccinated people aren't going around with some permanent, low level of the virus giving it to people.

This is the same reason, by the way, that vaccine passports had nothing to do with science and were stupid. Ironically, I first caught the virus at a football match with vaccine passports. Even more ironically, I was admitted into a nightclub on New Year's Eve 2021 while my unvaccinated friend was not, even though at this time I had Covid without knowing and he didn't. Again, this was a venue with vaccine passports.

 

[HSSS]

I'm sorry, are you saying that children, teenagers and young adults should have taken the vaccine to protect older, more vulnerable people? The moment we discovered the vaccine does not prevent infection or transmission, this stopped being an argument. It's also just not fair, but that's another issue.

If you don't have Covid, you can't spread Covid. Put another way: you either have it or you don't. Being unvaccinated does not make a 25-year-old more dangerous to his 88-year-old grandmother than if that 25-year-old had the jab. Sure, do a test before visiting Granny but being vaccinated or unvaccinated has no bearing. Unvaccinated people aren't going around with some permanent, low level of the virus giving it to people.

This is the same reason, by the way, that vaccine passports had nothing to do with science and were stupid. Ironically, I first caught the virus at a football match with vaccine passports. Even more ironically, I was admitted into a nightclub on New Year's Eve 2021 while my unvaccinated friend was not, even though at this time I had Covid without knowing and he didn't. Again, this was a venue with vaccine passports.

Don’t put words into my mouth. It’s not a “does or doesn’t” situation. It’s a “reduces” situation. Yes that should be made clear.

In the sense that a vaccinated 25yr old was statistically less likely to have it of course statistically they were less likely to spread it but of course if you don’t have it you can’t spread it. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. An unvaccinated 25 yr old was more likely to have had covid therefore more likely to give it to granny. Only testing would confirm if the 25yr in reality could spread it and thus which statistical group they fell into. Obviously as effectiveness has reduced so too has that arguments weight and the ability to predict groups but it is still true to a limited extent. Fundamental maths.

Your argument about football matches again uses the 0 or 100% argument which in reality was never true nor claimed to be and was always flawed understanding of the science and facts. Of course vaccine passports were not foolproof. Even without deliberate flouting of those rules all they ever did and were intended to do was stack the odds in a better favour not provide a cast iron guarantee.

Just because people didn’t/don’t understand this doesn’t mean it was all lies or false.

 

[bulkbiker]

An unvaccinated 25 yr old was more likely to have had covid therefore more likely to give it to granny.

Errr no that's nonsense.

Anyone could have had it jabbed or not as we now know. The jab never stopped you getting it or transmitting it.

The fact that the jabbed thought they were immune in fact means it's more likely that they would pass it on.

As always the best idea would be if you felt ill stay at home, but common sense solutions seemed to fall by the wayside.

 

[HSSS]

Errr no that's nonsense.

Anyone could have had it jabbed or not as we now know. The jab never stopped you getting it or transmitting it.

The fact that the jabbed thought they were immune in fact means it's more likely that they would pass it on.

As always the best idea would be if you felt ill stay at home, but common sense solutions seemed to fall by the wayside.

The jab did reduce the chance of getting it. It didn’t completely stop it. So it did make it less likely to have caught it if jabbed - statistically. As to whether an individual did or didn’t have it was still a matter of odds, greater or less as I keep saying. I do agree with time, variants and natural immunity rising after repeated infections that has becomes less true. Hence the lack of vaccine mandates now.

And I do agree some people felt bulletproof and took risks they otherwise might not of, but there’s no way you can say that applied to all jabbed. Human nature unfortunately. Same as you say common sense went out the window, often through ignorance, arrogance, selfishness or financial necessity

 

[bulkbiker]

The jab did reduce the chance of getting it

There is zero evidence for that.

So it did make it less likely to have caught it if jabbed

The early trials didn't even look at transmission reduction and infections in both the trial and placebo arms were amazingly low for a "highly infectious and deadly disease" ..

 

[HSSS]

There is zero evidence for that.

The early trials didn't even look at transmission reduction and infections in both the trial and placebo arms were amazingly low for a "highly infectious and deadly disease" ..

Theres plenty from all around the world it just doesn’t prove 100% reduction as so many seem to think is required.

Later trials and evaluations did though. And even better than lowering transmission, if you don’t have it you can’t transmit it.

You and I both know neither of us will change our minds on this on current evidence so little point going back and forth further. Goodnight.

 

[Jo_the_boat]

HSS, I apologise if it feels like some of us appear to be ganging up on you. I know you have done much to help others on this channel so thanks for that. It's also obvious that you can stick up for yourself, so good on you. 'Ganged up on' was how some of us have felt over the previous three years, but its not my intention with you.

Diabetes.co.uk helped me at the start of my diabetic journey and it still does. It helped me make my mind up by giving me a viable, experience-based view on how I might tackle my T2. I think that is why I have been so frustrated with the Covid narrative, we all only ever heard one side of it. I didn't immediately take the information received here at face value either, I looked further. Through that ongoing search I came across the four people who's videos I have linked to above. They are all huge advocates of good metabolic health, all very much on 'our' side as far as metabolic health, diet and lifestyle is concerned. There are many others too of course.

The four are Dr Malcolm Kendrick, Dr Aseem Malhotra, Ivor Cummins and, most recently, Dr Suneel Dhand.

The first three I have followed extensively, Dr Dhand I've only recently come across, and hearing that he is a determined advocate for good health, but whether he advocates LCHF I'm not sure yet. However, his stance on Covid and it's treatment in different hospitals in Eastern United States, made very interesting / revealing listening. For certain, the other three's stance on metabolic health differs from the norm and, in my opinion, is a true reflection of how all of us can improve our lives. They base their choices on data and science. As we know, LCHF is not a regime pushed by a large proportion of the NHS nor other 'lifestyle commentators', ably propped and supported the enormous food and processing industries.

To begin with during the pandemic, I didn't go looking too deeply for an alternative viewpoint, the one the 'experts' on TV were pushing. But, I began to smell a rat after listening to the very same people that I follow for help with my lifestyle choices. In other words I'd come to trust them, and so far their 'lifestyle' advice has proved accurate. But they all advocate a very different viewpoint on our treatment of Covid, lockdowns, masks, vaccines etc. They also base their Covid views on science and personal experience.

I cannot, nor would I presume to encourage, anyone to take a course of action against their will. But what I will continue to do is try and make a wide / balanced spread of information available so people can make up their own minds. I do think many people have been frightened, cajoled, blackmailed or whatever, into following the 'narrative'.

This thread has been moved to General Chat. That's OK, thanks to the mods for allowing us a voice. Having said that, this whole debate is highly relevant to everyone, including T2s

 

[bulkbiker]

most recently, Dr Suneel Dhand.

Any doc with this as his pinned tweet must be deserving of a follow...

 

[Sunny63]

I meet a lady who was 68 when she got covid. Her husband was 71. This was early 2020.
They were both hospitalised. She was in the ward where oxygen was given and her husband was put in one of the over 70s wards.. No oxygen and DNR marked up despite his complaints.
He did not make it.
I think this type of age descrimination is something people should be more aware of.

 

[zand]

I meet a lady who was 68 when she got covid. Her husband was 71. This was early 2020.
They were both hospitalised. She was in the ward where oxygen was given and her husband was put in one of the over 70s wards.. No oxygen and DNR marked up despite his complaints.
He did not make it.
I think this type of age descrimination is something people should be more aware of.

Yes, most people think DNR means that if the heart stops then they won't be resuscitated. That's what it used to mean. Nowadays it often means 'don't treat'.
My 93 year old aunt was in hospital after a minor fall, back in 2019, pre covid. She was still living independently in her own home at that time. Her discharge notes contained a DNR form which had been signed by 2 hospital doctors who had never met her before. It did state 'not applicable on this occasion', but was meant for future use. I was shocked. I held Lasting Powers of Attorney for her which made clear that she wanted me to make that decision for her if I deemed it to be the right thing to do. I spoke to my aunt's GP who I had met several times before and he was equally shocked.
How can you deny someone non invasive medical treatment on the grounds of age?

The reason I disliked the threads against lockdown, vaccines, mask wearing 3 years ago was that the people who were anti all those things appeared to say 'they are old let them die'. The view appeared to be that the elderly and vulnerable have conditions that they would die of anyway, so what matters if they die with covid? Having had covid early on and gasping for every breath, it upset me that if I had died of it folk here would have said ' She had a medical condition, so that's why she died'. Umm... all of us here have at least one medical condition. I can't understand the lack of compassion for others that was displayed at that time. The 'I'm alright Jack' attitude from those (mostly men) who had successfully managed to sort out their metabolic health was upsetting also. I've tried for years to mend my metabolism but have still not managed it. Women's health is more complicated than men's.

I understood people not wanting the vaccine at the time. I myself had doubts but decided to have it as I never wanted to go through having Covid again. The tone on those threads back then was very much 'why should I do x to help y?'

OK so 3 years on there's evidence that the vaccines didn't work (although like @HSSS I believe they worked in part). 3 years ago no-one knew that for sure. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Back to my aunt. She died after contracting Covid in a rehab centre where she had been while a broken shoulder mended. She died of Covid, not with Covid as the broken shoulder had mended and she was due for discharge.

To summarise, of course people had the right to post about the Covid measures being inappropriate and harmful 3 years ago. What I feel some of those posters forgot was that this is a support forum. Many of us were struggling with the effects of Covid-19 and this 'Oh they are old anyway' attitude was very upsetting. My lungs have never been the same since having Covid in March 2020. As @HSSS says, this subject shouldn't be looked at as black and white, life and death, there's lots of grey areas in between. We will never know how many people had only a mild version of Covid because they had the jab. We will never know how many people have been saved from having lung damage and long covid because of the jab.

 

[bulkbiker]

Those who like numbers may be interested in this .

 

[Jo_the_boat]

Yes, most people think DNR means that if the heart stops then they won't be resuscitated. That's what it used to mean. Nowadays it often means 'don't treat'.
My 93 year old aunt was in hospital after a minor fall, back in 2019, pre covid. She was still living independently in her own home at that time. Her discharge notes contained a DNR form which had been signed by 2 hospital doctors who had never met her before. It did state 'not applicable on this occasion', but was meant for future use. I was shocked. I held Lasting Powers of Attorney for her which made clear that she wanted me to make that decision for her if I deemed it to be the right thing to do. I spoke to my aunt's GP who I had met several times before and he was equally shocked.
How can you deny someone non invasive medical treatment on the grounds of age?

The reason I disliked the threads against lockdown, vaccines, mask wearing 3 years ago was that the people who were anti all those things appeared to say 'they are old let them die'. The view appeared to be that the elderly and vulnerable have conditions that they would die of anyway, so what matters if they die with covid? Having had covid early on and gasping for every breath, it upset me that if I had died of it folk here would have said ' She had a medical condition, so that's why she died'. Umm... all of us here have at least one medical condition. I can't understand the lack of compassion for others that was displayed at that time. The 'I'm alright Jack' attitude from those (mostly men) who had successfully managed to sort out their metabolic health was upsetting also. I've tried for years to mend my metabolism but have still not managed it. Women's health is more complicated than men's.

I understood people not wanting the vaccine at the time. I myself had doubts but decided to have it as I never wanted to go through having Covid again. The tone on those threads back then was very much 'why should I do x to help y?'

OK so 3 years on there's evidence that the vaccines didn't work (although like @HSSS I believe they worked in part). 3 years ago no-one knew that for sure. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Back to my aunt. She died after contracting Covid in a rehab centre where she had been while a broken shoulder mended. She died of Covid, not with Covid as the broken shoulder had mended and she was due for discharge.

To summarise, of course people had the right to post about the Covid measures being inappropriate and harmful 3 years ago. What I feel some of those posters forgot was that this is a support forum. Many of us were struggling with the effects of Covid-19 and this 'Oh they are old anyway' attitude was very upsetting. My lungs have never been the same since having Covid in March 2020. As @HSSS says, this subject shouldn't be looked at as black and white, life and death, there's lots of grey areas in between. We will never know how many people had only a mild version of Covid because they had the jab. We will never know how many people have been saved from having lung damage and long covid because of the jab.

Your second paragraph is extraordinary. I'd be interested to see proof that people on here actually said 'let them die'. I certainly didn't. Having lost too many people, I know just how precious life is. I was horrified to hear of elderly folk being sent back to care homes unprotected, sometimes having caught Covid in hospital and sent back to an environment where everybody would have been vulnerable due to their age in addition to having other serious conditions. I knew all this having read Malcolm Kendrick's blog / article about it. Here, read this first-hand account. This from April 2020. I told people about it and referred them to the article and I was still called a **** and a conspiracist.
That whole situation was horrific. Please don't tar everyone (male) with the same brush.

My big problem with many of the 'sensitive' things debated is that there is scant or no scientific evidence that vaccines / lockdowns / even mask-wearing etc. worked. There are wordy reassurances from so-called experts, but very little, or less, actual proof. There is spin and scaremongering for sure.
Whereas, there is documented proof that things didn't work and things were badly wrong. The governments own MHRA reporting tells us of the vaccine injured for example. Pfizer admitted their vaccines had not even been tested for transmission yet our Prime Minister and numerous other 'experts' ignored this. They looked you, me, our children, parents and grandparents in the eye and told us to get vaccinated. Not advised even, told, otherwise you will lose your job. It is nothing short of a scandal.
You're right of course, not everything is black and white because for the past three years everything has been black. The white has been totally hidden behind a conspiracy of silence (or vice versa so as not to appear racist).

And with reference to your final paragraph, I have had support on here for which I am very grateful, and I offer support where I can, in fact, have written about my journey in some detail and people read that.
From mid 2020 I have also offered support in the form of advising people to be wary of the measures the government took. And lost friends as a result. They will not come back. No chance of an apology despite the fact that the mess is unravelling.
I remember your struggles with metabolic health from previous discussions and sympathise. It doesn't alter the fact that approaching 30% of the UK is obese, the vast majority of whom are largely to blame through their lifestyles.

 

[Jo_the_boat]

Those who like numbers may be interested in this .

More evidence of jiggery-pokery. I've seen Norman Fenton a few times on John Campbell's channel.

 

[HSSS]

HSS, I apologise if it feels like some of us appear to be ganging up on you. I know you have done much to help others on this channel so thanks for that. It's also obvious that you can stick up for yourself, so good on you. 'Ganged up on' was how some of us have felt over the previous three years, but its not my intention with you.

Diabetes.co.uk helped me at the start of my diabetic journey and it still does. It helped me make my mind up by giving me a viable, experience-based view on how I might tackle my T2. I think that is why I have been so frustrated with the Covid narrative, we all only ever heard one side of it. I didn't immediately take the information received here at face value either, I looked further. Through that ongoing search I came across the four people who's videos I have linked to above. They are all huge advocates of good metabolic health, all very much on 'our' side as far as metabolic health, diet and lifestyle is concerned. There are many others too of course.

The four are Dr Malcolm Kendrick, Dr Aseem Malhotra, Ivor Cummins and, most recently, Dr Suneel Dhand.

The first three I have followed extensively, Dr Dhand I've only recently come across, and hearing that he is a determined advocate for good health, but whether he advocates LCHF I'm not sure yet. However, his stance on Covid and it's treatment in different hospitals in Eastern United States, made very interesting / revealing listening. For certain, the other three's stance on metabolic health differs from the norm and, in my opinion, is a true reflection of how all of us can improve our lives. They base their choices on data and science. As we know, LCHF is not a regime pushed by a large proportion of the NHS nor other 'lifestyle commentators', ably propped and supported the enormous food and processing industries.

To begin with during the pandemic, I didn't go looking too deeply for an alternative viewpoint, the one the 'experts' on TV were pushing. But, I began to smell a rat after listening to the very same people that I follow for help with my lifestyle choices. In other words I'd come to trust them, and so far their 'lifestyle' advice has proved accurate. But they all advocate a very different viewpoint on our treatment of Covid, lockdowns, masks, vaccines etc. They also base their Covid views on science and personal experience.

I cannot, nor would I presume to encourage, anyone to take a course of action against their will. But what I will continue to do is try and make a wide / balanced spread of information available so people can make up their own minds. I do think many people have been frightened, cajoled, blackmailed or whatever, into following the 'narrative'.

This thread has been moved to General Chat. That's OK, thanks to the mods for allowing us a voice. Having said that, this whole debate is highly relevant to everyone, including T2s

Thank you for your concern. I’m ok. I have the choice not to enter this discussion or leave when I want. I’ve never thought that was your intention. I’m really most offended when it’s assumed I haven’t questioned anything or sought more details or been gullible because the daily rag (or gov)tells me to believe stuff. Just because my position is different doesn’t make me ignorant, nor does it mean I agree with all the decisions that were made. There’s plenty of extremely intelligent well educated and unbiased scientists that believe similar to myself nothing to do with the politics or money.

I completely understand the point about how we as low carbers step outside the mainstream messaging on diet and health. And as such it does make it “easier?” to do so on other issues perhaps or at the very least be more questioning. Even I, with many opinions quite opposed to yours, am asking a lot of questions, just not always the same conclusions are arrived at. For sure some decisions made no sense scientifically or even practically let alone morally. I was shocked at how many in this sphere have shared your views tbh on one level and it makes sense on another. At least one of those names has me concerned how recent events have effected his stance on things and it’s almost made me question the things I used to whole hearted believe. I am not alone in the low carb world in believing a lot of credibility and progress in our dietary progress over the last few years is rapidly being lost because of these same big names being seen as crackpots across the board due to their pandemic responses. Now that is a shame and borders on disaster for low carb progress. In a way there’s a part of me that hopes their views end up validated in order that our metabolic progress is advanced as a result.

For sure any new science (mRNA in this case) should be monitored and questioned and investigated and to assume it is side effect and risk free is quite honesty naive at best. I’m not sure how much outrage is at the vaccines and their alleged issues themselves or the messaging, lack of transparency and policies that surrounded them. And there is a difference. A huge one. This government have had more than a few issues with messaging, transparency and honesty on many subjects and covid seriously tested them on these fronts in a way no one could possibly ignore.

I feel the genuine concerns are being lost to the reasonable majority by the extremism, distorted, misrepresented or even crackpot claims and statistics. Kind of what they are protesting against - making them the kettle discussing the pot. How many times the maths of an issue relating to vaccines, deaths, proportions of who is sick etc etc is misunderstood, misquoted and misrepresented in the last 3 yrs has told me two things. Johnson is not alone is being bad at statistics (see the Hancock WhatsApp revelations) and I thought I believed Sunaks maths til 18 plan was daft but obviously better maths is still needed til 16 at least because ridiculous numbers of people, even professionals, simply haven’t got a scoobie do how to understand the numbers.

Who knows? At some point I might end up with egg on my face realising you all saw the light before me. That it’s all a devious population control plan has occurred to me or even just a greed/ignorance based mistake which is somewhat more likely. I don’t see that (yet) but anything is possible. And I’ll happily come back here and say that directly to you and others I’ve debated similar with if it turns out to be the case - even allowing for hindsight being wonderful and in 2020 and 2021 so much was still unknown about the virus itself as well as the vaccines. But I’m a very long way from taking the pretty extreme view that some do yet, even whilst realising nothing is perfect. And I very much doubt many would be honest enough to say to me “actually I overreacted and the vaccine was mostly a good thing after all, even if the delivery messaging was bad” : Would you?

 

[Jo_the_boat]

I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say crackpots. But I think people are painted thus through an ongoing orchestrated campaign to protect the ever-crumbling vaccine legacy. The campaign is publicized through Mainstream media and the crackpot has no right or means of reply. Most of the 'crackpots' I read and listen to are people of intelligence, qualifications and experience in relevant fields.
I don't believe their scepticism of the vaccines is reason to doubt their sincerity over their low carb beliefs. In fact, for the increasing amount of people who are looking at a healthier lifestyle, I think their increasing 'notoriety' will only be a plus as we go on and they are proved right.
Note how those who smear don't offer any fact-based evidence. It's all of a personal nature because there is no actual evidence to prove them wrong.
Take the MP, Andrew Bridgen as an example. The only thing they could come up with after his speech in parliament was a tenuous and erroneous link to the holocaust. Utterly refuted by the Jewish community itself.

I promise I don't mean to demean you or your views in any way. I am genuinely angry about how we all have been misled and mistreated. So much so in fact that I had a row with my diabetic nurse yesterday when she tried to follow outdated guidelines on diet and cholesterol. I would have been on another raft of tablets if I'd followed her 'advice'. (I've subsequently written her a letter of apology with a detailed explanation.)

It's too late for me to accept the mRNA Covid vaccine to be a good thing. In my opinion they were ill-conceived, untested, all but worthless and dangerous. The latest papers suggest that rather than doing any good, the latest boosters actually compromise our own immune system.
But IF all that is overturned and those killed magically come back to life, I'll come back and eat (low carb) humble pie.

 

[HSSS]

I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say crackpots. But I think people are painted thus through an ongoing orchestrated campaign to protect the ever-crumbling vaccine legacy. The campaign is publicized through Mainstream media and the crackpot has no right or means of reply. Most of the 'crackpots' I read and listen to are people of intelligence, qualifications and experience in relevant fields.
I don't believe their scepticism of the vaccines is reason to doubt their sincerity over their low carb beliefs. In fact, for the increasing amount of people who are looking at a healthier lifestyle, I think their increasing 'notoriety' will only be a plus as we go on and they are proved right.
Note how those who smear don't offer any fact-based evidence. It's all of a personal nature because there is no actual evidence to prove them wrong.
Take the MP, Andrew Bridgen as an example. The only thing they could come up with after his speech in parliament was a tenuous and erroneous link to the holocaust. Utterly refuted by the Jewish community itself.

I promise I don't mean to demean you or your views in any way. I am genuinely angry about how we all have been misled and mistreated. So much so in fact that I had a row with my diabetic nurse yesterday when she tried to follow outdated guidelines on diet and cholesterol. I would have been on another raft of tablets if I'd followed her 'advice'. (I've subsequently written her a letter of apology with a detailed explanation.)

It's too late for me to accept the mRNA Covid vaccine to be a good thing. In my opinion they were ill-conceived, untested, all but worthless and dangerous. The latest papers suggest that rather than doing any good, the latest boosters actually compromise our own immune system.
But IF all that is overturned and those killed magically come back to life, I'll come back and eat (low carb) humble pie.

I do not mean the the low carb message “should” be doubted or even the proponents sincerity for the subject should, but for those that view the names you listed, and several others, as “anti vax nutters“ (which is many) then those same people will tend to disbelieve everything else these low carb hero’s say. The baby (lc) goes out with the bath water (vax opinions). The notoriety works against the low carb message imo. It’s only if you agree with the vax position it strengthens the LC one. On the whole the initial view of one message clouds the initial view of the other (myself as a less common example of the opposite admittedly). No doubt one of the reasons PHC and Malholtra have parted ways.

I believe your anger is real, and you have no intention to demean. I’m angry at many of the choices, lack of transparency, and policy decisions too, just I don’t believe the science is as flawed as you do. I believe and have read many reports and studies (which most certainly do exist) that do show at least some efficacy for the things you say were worthless. I also believe based on the scientific writings I’ve read, not journalism or propaganda, things would have been a lot worse without some of those Hobson’s choices. If the dead and damaged from the virus itself miraculously recover and we see that they are a minority compared to more numerous and serious harms caused by the vaccines then I’ll eat your pie and my hat.

For the record I’m about to have identical “discussions“ with my nurse I suspect. Hopefully I’ll stay calm enough not to need to follow up with an apology but the idea of a written explanation actually sounds quite good as I rarely feel like they listen to spoke words.

This is feeling circular now so I’m going to (try to) retire from this thread. Thanks for not getting personal or dismissive.

 

[Lamont D]

Just found this.
Not going to discuss either side. The lockdown was really bad mentally to me.

But the government got so much wrong, from the outset, the science, the preparation, the mindset of what was more important, life or the economy.
My colleagues and I found out about this 'Chinese virus' , because they were prevented from travelling in October/November 2019. It is called 'corona virus 19, because of the year that it was identified.
Five months later, lockdown!!!!
Wether right or wrong, opinion divided, just if wrong, so late.
The virus was always airborne, nothing else made sense!
With this type of virus, similar to colds, flu and some other infections, it turns into a lottery of who is infected.
Regardless of age, colour, race, environmental, fitness, rich or poor. The likelihood of infection is really high in some, really low in others, and in a certain percentage, won't be touched by it at all, a natural immunity.
However, the treatment you receive is dependent on the same things, age, the poorer, unhealthy, the environment and so on, is against those susceptible.
My immediate family, did not suffer as some did, We had no covid fatalities. Why?
I have a large family, my four children, and their partners were all on the front line, in hospitals, care homes, schools, shops, travelling around and distribution. My grandchildren, only one had a mild dose! He was at work and had been out in town, drinking! I myself before lockdown were very close to others, who had already come across others who had been effected, but it didn't effect my disabled wife, my father in law, who had numerous compromised conditions. But never got it. Spent time in hospital in the February of 2020!

If the figures are correct on the death rates. Why was western Europe, the Americas, hit the hardest?
I think that, because the natural immunity that is built up during our younger years, is now since the improvement in our health has compromised the effect of catching colds, flu and other viruses. The western world has become more susceptible to them.
It does seem to me, that some have continuous symptoms.
Why was the figures wave after wave higher in northern temperate climate?
Not in tropical or sub tropical areas.

To me, the vaccine was at first, found to be helpful to some, but not all, it didn't really stop the pandemic, it didn't stop the the different variances of the virus. But it was and still is being used as a political solution to assuage the debate, a distraction to what was actually happening, to normalise, to make people believe, the government was doing something, when it was completely out of its depth and stuck in dogma. To get through it without losing the power. The vaccine was more useful as a population suppressor, as was the lockdown, not because the government wanted it, but to appease the science, the press, the thought that other countries may be right!

As an island, if lockdown was the answer, why didn't we close all our borders. The main reason was food and other essentials, we cant feed ourselves! However, the clamp down was piecemeal and indiscriminate. Maybe why brexit was such a bad idea! We are so dependent on each other, for everything!I

My son works for a steel importer, the amount is unbelievable, the ships never stopped from all over the world. Some ships had covid, some not. But no isolation or suppression of movement in and out of ports.

The majority of working hours in this country are not in offices! Though you wouldn't think so. According to this so out of touch government!!! the likes of factories, which never closed, where only certain covid modifications were made. Was so slow, that would not have made any difference.

When talking about certain vaccines, I always refer to the smallpox and of course, Jenner.
Smallpox was rampant, but has been eradicated. Solely due to world wide immunisation.
The original vaccine was originally trying to catch up with those already infected. Because once you had the disease, it had to run its course. But preventative immunisation, works better, as a small viral load does build up a higher resilience to the virus. That is why some people get side effects, some don't! It's a lottery!

So once, the virus has taken a hold, and those people with it, it has to run its course, unless, the vaccine prevents further illness and symptoms. If you are fortunate enough not to have caught the virus or naturally immune, then a vaccine will work against said virus and be more resilient against it.
With a vaccine, immunisation is far more effective before someone gets the virus. That is why, even those that have been immunised, could still be down with it. Viral load is important and of course how resilient certain people for many reasons are to the vaccine.

In so many of the victims, the cart came before the horse. The vaccine was ineffective, because the resilience wasn't there. If we had the vaccine in 2018, it would have been more effective.

I have been tested so many times, been in hospitals all through the last three years, all negative. Why? No idea! It is a lottery!

Finally, with a virus of this type, there are the certain amount of those, people who will never become ill, and are the main reason for different variances in a virus. These are known as carriers, superspreaders. No matter the viral load, in a community of people living close together in terrible conditions, abject poverty, no medical treatment or care. Many will be struck down, but there is always one or two who have no symptoms, no illness, no effects whatsoever.

We have to learn from the pandemic, we cannot be so unprepared, so blind to the human cost, the dogma of politics, the audacity of making profit from misery, the power grab, the delinquency of duty of government. The absolute disgrace of our gutter press and media of responsibility to the people of this country. We do not deserve this abhorrent behaviour and self serving manipulation of the British people.

 

[Jo_the_boat]

Just found this.
Not going to discuss either side. The lockdown was really bad mentally to me.

But the government got so much wrong, from the outset, the science, the preparation, the mindset of what was more important, life or the economy.
My colleagues and I found out about this 'Chinese virus' , because they were prevented from travelling in October/November 2019. It is called 'corona virus 19, because of the year that it was identified.
Five months later, lockdown!!!!
Wether right or wrong, opinion divided, just if wrong, so late.
The virus was always airborne, nothing else made sense!
With this type of virus, similar to colds, flu and some other infections, it turns into a lottery of who is infected.
Regardless of age, colour, race, environmental, fitness, rich or poor. The likelihood of infection is really high in some, really low in others, and in a certain percentage, won't be touched by it at all, a natural immunity.
However, the treatment you receive is dependent on the same things, age, the poorer, unhealthy, the environment and so on, is against those susceptible.
My immediate family, did not suffer as some did, We had no covid fatalities. Why?
I have a large family, my four children, and their partners were all on the front line, in hospitals, care homes, schools, shops, travelling around and distribution. My grandchildren, only one had a mild dose! He was at work and had been out in town, drinking! I myself before lockdown were very close to others, who had already come across others who had been effected, but it didn't effect my disabled wife, my father in law, who had numerous compromised conditions. But never got it. Spent time in hospital in the February of 2020!

If the figures are correct on the death rates. Why was western Europe, the Americas, hit the hardest?
I think that, because the natural immunity that is built up during our younger years, is now since the improvement in our health has compromised the effect of catching colds, flu and other viruses. The western world has become more susceptible to them.
It does seem to me, that some have continuous symptoms.
Why was the figures wave after wave higher in northern temperate climate?
Not in tropical or sub tropical areas.

To me, the vaccine was at first, found to be helpful to some, but not all, it didn't really stop the pandemic, it didn't stop the the different variances of the virus. But it was and still is being used as a political solution to assuage the debate, a distraction to what was actually happening, to normalise, to make people believe, the government was doing something, when it was completely out of its depth and stuck in dogma. To get through it without losing the power. The vaccine was more useful as a population suppressor, as was the lockdown, not because the government wanted it, but to appease the science, the press, the thought that other countries may be right!

As an island, if lockdown was the answer, why didn't we close all our borders. The main reason was food and other essentials, we cant feed ourselves! However, the clamp down was piecemeal and indiscriminate. Maybe why brexit was such a bad idea! We are so dependent on each other, for everything!I

My son works for a steel importer, the amount is unbelievable, the ships never stopped from all over the world. Some ships had covid, some not. But no isolation or suppression of movement in and out of ports.

The majority of working hours in this country are not in offices! Though you wouldn't think so. According to this so out of touch government!!! the likes of factories, which never closed, where only certain covid modifications were made. Was so slow, that would not have made any difference.

When talking about certain vaccines, I always refer to the smallpox and of course, Jenner.
Smallpox was rampant, but has been eradicated. Solely due to world wide immunisation.
The original vaccine was originally trying to catch up with those already infected. Because once you had the disease, it had to run its course. But preventative immunisation, works better, as a small viral load does build up a higher resilience to the virus. That is why some people get side effects, some don't! It's a lottery!

So once, the virus has taken a hold, and those people with it, it has to run its course, unless, the vaccine prevents further illness and symptoms. If you are fortunate enough not to have caught the virus or naturally immune, then a vaccine will work against said virus and be more resilient against it.
With a vaccine, immunisation is far more effective before someone gets the virus. That is why, even those that have been immunised, could still be down with it. Viral load is important and of course how resilient certain people for many reasons are to the vaccine.

In so many of the victims, the cart came before the horse. The vaccine was ineffective, because the resilience wasn't there. If we had the vaccine in 2018, it would have been more effective.

I have been tested so many times, been in hospitals all through the last three years, all negative. Why? No idea! It is a lottery!

Finally, with a virus of this type, there are the certain amount of those, people who will never become ill, and are the main reason for different variances in a virus. These are known as carriers, superspreaders. No matter the viral load, in a community of people living close together in terrible conditions, abject poverty, no medical treatment or care. Many will be struck down, but there is always one or two who have no symptoms, no illness, no effects whatsoever.

We have to learn from the pandemic, we cannot be so unprepared, so blind to the human cost, the dogma of politics, the audacity of making profit from misery, the power grab, the delinquency of duty of government. The absolute disgrace of our gutter press and media of responsibility to the people of this country. We do not deserve this abhorrent behaviour and self serving manipulation of the British people.

Good post. I agree with much you say.

The over-riding feeling I have is one of being incredibly let down. We were not given sufficient information to make up our own minds. Worse, we as a population were frightened, bullied and cajoled into a state of paralysis and fear. This misdirection, at times, came in the form of outright lies and the thing that makes me cringe is that we were supposed to make decisions for the health of our families, particularly children, based on false, and at times, dangerous information. Even today, millions of us are still unable to see past establishment propaganda.
The Government and health advisory bodies, The WHO, The Mainstream Media, and the vested interest of the corporate sector are to blame.
Looking back and reflecting on those who made incredibly important decisions about the nation's health, we were failed. I sincerely doubt whether those responsible will ever be brought to book.

I agree that we should never let this happen again, although the 'powers that be' are gearing up to make the corporate-controlled WHO wholly in charge and accountable for future epidemics. Lord preserve us!

 

[lucylocket61]

Iam making a general point, not aimed at anyone.

I want to respond to the point about DNR's. I have recently done mine. All and any suitable treatment will not be stopped, even though I am terminally ill. They will only be stopped if my health means they are going to be ineffective or the risk of harm outweighs the possible benefits.

I have done my DNR for England and a separate one for Wales. I am nearly 62 years old. I am not sure why people think a Dnr means withdrawal of all treatments. My frequent stays in hospital over the past five months has allowed me to hear many other, older patients discuss how they are being treated.

My conclusion is that a DNR only applies to resuscitation. Perhaps things were handled differently during the early covid years, I don't know, but I do know the situation now. I was in the respiratory ward twice, each time for more than a week, and the doctors had clear protocols in place around this.