Type 2 Is extending your fast upon waking a good idea if you experience dawn phenomenon?

[Deleted member 573395]

My gut feeling is no as I often experience nausea or a headache in the morning until eating. Or can it be beneficial to push through this?

 

[Outlier]

We are all different, so you will have a range of responses, and I see you take medication so you need to factor in how to work your eating around that.

I don't take medication and am strict keto, but my BG rises until mid-afternoon unless I eat. As I prefer a short eating window, I let it, but if I need to bring it down early for whatever reason, a small Greek yoghurt does the trick.

 

[KennyA]

Hi and welcome.

It doesn't bother me either way. I do have DP and tend not to eat until 1.30 ish or later. When I've tested through this period (a while ago now) my BG continues to rise slowly. Eating anything stops it. To put this in context, I eat around 20g carb/day and usually no earlier than 1pm and no later than 8pm, nothing fixed. No medication.

When I've tested, it's peaked at around 5.6 mmol/l which is OK. I play an hour of reasonably strenuous football Monday lunchtimes and don't eat beforehand.

I have no problem with this - my liver is using up stored resource to create necessary glucose which is exactly what I want to happen.

So I have no problem with extending my fast (I don't think of it that way, I'm usually just "not hungry") - but then I don't get headaches or nausea. If eating something takes care of that, I think I would be eating something. Your call ultimately - there's no book of rules for this.

 

[Paul_]

I'm on keto, so I don't usually feel that hungry in the morning. However, my BG readings are usually highest in the morning.

If I do feel hungry around breakfast time, feel rough first thing (generally dehydration to date), or I have a particularly active day ahead, I'll generally have a cheese omelette. Eggs are like a magic food for me in these circumstances, they cause no BG increase at all (and in fact I generally get a lower reading 2hrs later than my pre-meal reading), they have salt in them (as does the cheese) so can help with keto hydration issues, and they're filling. I also drink a decent amount of water first thing too.

Overall, as Kenny said, do what works for you. Don't become a slave to dietary approaches that either don't work or cause you issues, just for the sake of it. When it comes to fasting, I'm new to it, but I do them when it fits with my schedule for a day and when I feel like it. I'm not religiously committed to a fasting schedule.

 

[Deleted member 573395]

Thank you all for your replies, much appreciated!

I’m on Metformin which has to be taken with food. And these symptoms stop once I’ve eaten.

Eggs are a great start for me too with a 2 hour reading in the low 6’s. I have low carb toast alongside this as I find it more filling. I also drink plenty of water in the morning.

I’m usually able to go longer between meals than I did pre low carb and am snacking a lot less these days but I’m not at a point where I can skip meals.

 

[lovinglife]

I don’t fast for a number of reasons, I have 3 keto meals a day at about 5-6 am 12pm and 6pm, I don’t snack except for a square of 85% choc about 8.30 with a decaf coffee.

If fasting isn’t for you that’s fine there is no reason to do it if you don’t want to, it’s not necessary to do to be able to get good control. You need to be happy, comfortable and able to maintain long term. Who knows you may in the future change your mind and be able to do it if you want to, I never could but nor did I want to

 

[ianf0ster]

I have DP, but eat 2 meals per day on weekdays and one meal per day on weekends and holidays.
Fortunately my BG just rises up to close to usually between 6.5 and 7.5 in a morning (7.8 a few days ago) but I don't remember it going above 8.0 no matter how long it is until I eat. But it may do since I only test a fating level pre-meal and post meal a few times per year since I rarely eat anything out of the ordinary.

Although I did suffer from rising DP at first, this soon changed to just an initial rise to a flat level pre-lunch or 'pre-Linner' as we call it. After my meal(s) it either drops a little or stays constant until the night.

We are all different, so it's best to be guided by your BG meter and what suits your routine.

 

[HSSS]

Thank you all for your replies, much appreciated!

I’m on Metformin which has to be taken with food. And these symptoms stop once I’ve eaten.

Eggs are a great start for me too with a 2 hour reading in the low 6’s. I have low carb toast alongside this as I find it more filling. I also drink plenty of water in the morning.

I’m usually able to go longer between meals than I did pre low carb and am snacking a lot less these days but I’m not at a point where I can skip meals.

I sometimes fast and sometimes had a small no carb snack. If I felt sick without eating I’d eat. The metformin might be better with food, to avoid digestive issues mostly, but that doesn’t mean it has to be first thing. It could be with another meal for instance.

If it were me I’d be skipping the low carb bread though. (How low is it really? Many are just slightly lower than normal and still pretty high carb)

 

[Paul_]

If it were me I’d be skipping the low carb bread though. (How low is it really? Many are just slightly lower than normal and still pretty high carb)

The low carb bread I occasionally have is Livlife. Now ok, slices are very small and it's 2 quid a loaf. However, it's pretty good quality, a good source of fibre, per slice carbs fit well within my daily macros on keto, and it scratches that bread craving itch I have since going low carb. I have it with a higher fat dairy option or protein, to give that "something on toast" sensation I crave.


Most of my carb cravings are pretty much resolved in my head 5 weeks into low carbing, I'm enjoying so many of my low carb meals that I've put the higher carb meals out of my mind. However, two main carb cravings remain - dirty, nutrition free white bread, and milk chocolate. Livlife helps with the bread craving and 85% dark chocolate melted into double cream with vanilla extract helps with the milk chocolate one. Both perfectly fine for me in terms of BG reaction, but appreciate that's not the same for everyone.

 

[Margarettt]

I have no problem with this - my liver is using up stored resource to create necessary glucose which is exactly what I want to happen.

At two weeks low carbs statements like the above and when @JoKalsbeek basically said "better out than in" last week help me as a newbie come to terms with high early morning numbers when there are mostly fives and sixes for the rest of the day. Over the last week I've enjoyed skipping meals. Its a novelty to me to do that and not feel ravenously hungry. I'm settling into skipping lunch on work days and skipping breakfast on home days.
I have a couple of questions.
This morning my waking 5am bloods were 7.2 and 7am pre eating it was 8.7. Its already down to 7 at 8am and I know will be even lower at the two hour mark.
The last few days my pre breakfast(or first eat) numbers were 6.6, 7.9 6 and 7 so is the fasting thing still okay if the numbers are 8.7?
Also if my objective is to get my "average" down over 3 months and I know food will generally bring that big number down for me , is eating when I'm not hungry the better option?
I acknowledge I'm only two weeks in and things will change but I want to give it my best shot.

 

[MissMuffett]

My gut feeling is no as I often experience nausea or a headache in the morning until eating. Or can it be beneficial to push through this?

Do you take electrolytes? It may stop the headaches and nausea. I don’t eat breakfast but I do have a latte first thing, made with almond milk and a dash of double cream. This keeps me going until 12 noon which is when I eat my first meal of the day. I’m on Metformin and I take it with my coffee, it doesn’t seem to affect me not taking it with meals.

 

[KennyA]

At two weeks low carbs statements like the above and when @JoKalsbeek basically said "better out than in" last week help me as a newbie come to terms with high early morning numbers when there are mostly fives and sixes for the rest of the day. Over the last week I've enjoyed skipping meals. Its a novelty to me to do that and not feel ravenously hungry. I'm settling into skipping lunch on work days and skipping breakfast on home days.
I have a couple of questions.
This morning my waking 5am bloods were 7.2 and 7am pre eating it was 8.7. Its already down to 7 at 8am and I know will be even lower at the two hour mark.
The last few days my pre breakfast(or first eat) numbers were 6.6, 7.9 6 and 7 so is the fasting thing still okay if the numbers are 8.7?
Also if my objective is to get my "average" down over 3 months and I know food will generally bring that big number down for me , is eating when I'm not hungry the better option?
I acknowledge I'm only two weeks in and things will change but I want to give it my best shot.

I think (I had this info on my forum blog which is no longer accessible, so I'll need to check my notebooks) that my morning numbers stayed high (all these high/low values are comparative only to me) for at least the first 9 months on 20g/day. The numbers you're seeing are in the same ballpark. I tried a CGM and that did show very clearly what was going on: a sharp BG fall at 4-5am followed by a long slow rise, which could be stopped by eating - and by eating I mean a few nuts or a very small piece of cheese, less than a cubic inch.

I don't think that "getting your average down" is a helpful way to think about things. What you want at the end of a three month period is to have lower BG at the end compared to the beginning. Rises and falls in BG are perfectly normal, but what's wanted is rises and falls in a range eg 5.0 to 6.5 rather than 6.5 to 9.0. Does that make sense? The long-term BG value is the HbA1c which measures something different to the fingerprick tests, so you can't guarantee a direct read-across.

Your test data is selective and not random, so the average of your readings will be skewed. Testing in my view is not just to see how high your levels are. It's to assess the impact of food and other stimuli on your blood glucose. The highs tell you so much more about what's going on and about the things you can do to control it.

In general I don't see why I would eat when I'm not hungry. I don't think of it as skipping meals. If you're hungry, eat. If you're not, don't. If you want to stop the DP, which is your liver converting its stores to glucose, you probably won't need a full meal. Try a few things and see what works for you.

 

[HSSS]

At two weeks low carbs statements like the above and when @JoKalsbeek basically said "better out than in" last week help me as a newbie come to terms with high early morning numbers when there are mostly fives and sixes for the rest of the day. Over the last week I've enjoyed skipping meals. Its a novelty to me to do that and not feel ravenously hungry. I'm settling into skipping lunch on work days and skipping breakfast on home days.
I have a couple of questions.
This morning my waking 5am bloods were 7.2 and 7am pre eating it was 8.7. Its already down to 7 at 8am and I know will be even lower at the two hour mark.
The last few days my pre breakfast(or first eat) numbers were 6.6, 7.9 6 and 7 so is the fasting thing still okay if the numbers are 8.7?
Also if my objective is to get my "average" down over 3 months and I know food will generally bring that big number down for me , is eating when I'm not hungry the better option?
I acknowledge I'm only two weeks in and things will change but I want to give it my best shot.

Have you considered just a very small item (to stop the dawn phenomenon rather than for hunger) without adding more glucose? Eg a half boiled egg

To a point I dont worry about whether to fast or not based on that pre breakfast reading, more if I’m hungry or not. If it were particularly high and the next planned meal was some time away I’d probably have a small amount of non carb food or bring the upcoming meal forward making sure it was very low carb to not add to the reading either, as I wouldn’t like a high spike and would sacrifice that days draining of the glucose swamp instead. But that’s just me.

 

[KennyA]

At two weeks low carbs statements like the above and when @JoKalsbeek basically said "better out than in" last week help me as a newbie come to terms with high early morning numbers when there are mostly fives and sixes for the rest of the day. Over the last week I've enjoyed skipping meals. Its a novelty to me to do that and not feel ravenously hungry. I'm settling into skipping lunch on work days and skipping breakfast on home days.
I have a couple of questions.
This morning my waking 5am bloods were 7.2 and 7am pre eating it was 8.7. Its already down to 7 at 8am and I know will be even lower at the two hour mark.
The last few days my pre breakfast(or first eat) numbers were 6.6, 7.9 6 and 7 so is the fasting thing still okay if the numbers are 8.7?
Also if my objective is to get my "average" down over 3 months and I know food will generally bring that big number down for me , is eating when I'm not hungry the better option?
I acknowledge I'm only two weeks in and things will change but I want to give it my best shot.

I've checked my notebook for the first week in September 2020, after about nine months on 20g/day. HbA1c had been 36 in April 2020 and would be roughly the same in November. My morning readings were all high fives and sixes. I don't seem to have done any regular morning readings in October 2020 or subsequently.

 

[Deleted member 573395]

I sometimes fast and sometimes had a small no carb snack. If I felt sick without eating I’d eat. The metformin might be better with food, to avoid digestive issues mostly, but that doesn’t mean it has to be first thing. It could be with another meal for instance.

If it were me I’d be skipping the low carb bread though. (How low is it really? Many are just slightly lower than normal and still pretty high carb)

Thanks @HSSS. I take one tablet twice a day so have been spreading them out. I guess they could be taken at different times of the day though.

I’ve tried a few of the low carb breads but the one I have at the moment has been the best so far and seems to have the cleanest ingredients.

 

[Deleted member 573395]

I don’t fast for a number of reasons, I have 3 keto meals a day at about 5-6 am 12pm and 6pm, I don’t snack except for a square of 85% choc about 8.30 with a decaf coffee.

If fasting isn’t for you that’s fine there is no reason to do it if you don’t want to, it’s not necessary to do to be able to get good control. You need to be happy, comfortable and able to maintain long term. Who knows you may in the future change your mind and be able to do it if you want to, I never could but nor did I want to

Thanks @lovinglife. That’s good to know!

 

[Deleted member 573395]

The low carb bread I occasionally have is Livlife. Now ok, slices are very small and it's 2 quid a loaf. However, it's pretty good quality, a good source of fibre, per slice carbs fit well within my daily macros on keto, and it scratches that bread craving itch I have since going low carb. I have it with a higher fat dairy option or protein, to give that "something on toast" sensation I crave.

View attachment 62872
Most of my carb cravings are pretty much resolved in my head 5 weeks into low carbing, I'm enjoying so many of my low carb meals that I've put the higher carb meals out of my mind. However, two main carb cravings remain - dirty, nutrition free white bread, and milk chocolate. Livlife helps with the bread craving and 85% dark chocolate melted into double cream with vanilla extract helps with the milk chocolate one. Both perfectly fine for me in terms of BG reaction, but appreciate that's not the same for everyone.

Thanks for this @Paul_.

Rice has been a big one for me but I’ve become accustomed to cauliflower rice. I recently tried a chocolate keto cookie (1.8g carbs). No reaction on the blood sugar and felt like I was having a real treat.

 

[Deleted member 573395]

Do you take electrolytes? It may stop the headaches and nausea. I don’t eat breakfast but I do have a latte first thing, made with almond milk and a dash of double cream. This keeps me going until 12 noon which is when I eat my first meal of the day. I’m on Metformin and I take it with my coffee, it doesn’t seem to affect me not taking it with meals.

Thanks @MissMuffett. I’ve never tried electrolytes. The feeling sick is a daily thing before breakfast, the headaches not as often. I have noticed the feeling gets worse after having a cup of tea first thing (decaf with Koko unsweetened). And then resolves once I’ve eaten.

 

[HSSS]

Thanks @MissMuffett. I’ve never tried electrolytes. The feeling sick is a daily thing before breakfast, the headaches not as often. I have noticed the feeling gets worse after having a cup of tea first thing (decaf with Koko unsweetened). And then resolves once I’ve eaten.

A couple of things to consider. Is it actual nausea or could it be old fashioned hunger? What are your bgl at that point in time?

 

[Paul_]

Thanks for this @Paul_.

Rice has been a big one for me but I’ve become accustomed to cauliflower rice. I recently tried a chocolate keto cookie (1.8g carbs). No reaction on the blood sugar and felt like I was having a real treat.

Ah, see now you're moving into areas that are my greatest nemesis when it comes to low carb diets. I don't like cauliflower, don't like courgetti, and avocados should be banned for crimes against food. This rules out about 80% of keto/low carb recipes on the internet!

When it comes to sweet stuff, agree completely. Without the endless assault of sugar on my taste buds, low carb sweet treats are now a real treat. Dark chocolate and asparagus also taste sweet to me. Amazing how our bodies adapts to these things.