Pesky dawn phenomenon

[Bebo321]

Bebo321, I think your advice is brilliant and I will certainly be trying this myself. I prefer to exercise first thing but I find because of DP, I can't - very frustrating!

That's great Tweetypie!
You know there's a thread 'new you in 42' which you may like to take a look at on the forum, started by the fantastic 'Jamrox' - it's just basically a group of us trying to motivate each other to exercise more (whilst having a bit of a laugh in the process!)

 

[Tweetypie]

You know there's a thread 'new you in 42' which you may like to take a look at on the forum, started by the fantastic 'Jamrox' - it's just basically a group of us trying to motivate each other to exercise more (whilst having a bit of a laugh in the process!)[/QUOTE]
Thanks, I will give it a go. Might try and go for a walk before bed, instead of being a

 

[Bluetit1802]

Great results Bluetit1802!
I love the fact that you are so on top of your diabetes!
A few thoughts about what you are experiencing ;
Firstly, weight loss will no doubt be having a positive affect on your BGs, as your insulin resistance will have improved and I would suggest that this is why your fasting levels are lower.
Consuming carbs for breakfast (even a small amount) will inevitably raise your BGs a little, but the only way to know for certain that this is the cause is by cooking yourself up a bit of bacon and eggs (if you can face it) instead, and see what result this has on your pre-lunch reading.
It does seem odd that you are not maintaining the same levels as before however - perhaps someone else on the forum could enlighten you there.

Just out of interest, have you tried more vigorous exercise too see what effect that has on your BGs? It might be something to consider if your fitness level allows - or if not something you could work up to?Although intense exercise will ordinarily cause your blood glucose levels to rise, however if you follow it with a period of moderate exercise you should enable to bring the level back down again.

I only ask, because the beneficial effects of higher intensity exercise actually last longer (possibly even up to 24hrs or so) and I am wondering if that might help you get your fasting bloods down even lower, whilst also improving your insulin sensitivity further.
Perhaps before you go on your walk, you could do some gentle stretches and warm up your muscles - jog on the spot for a couple of minutes then run on the spot as fast as you can for a minute or so - then go on your walk as usual. See if this makes further improvements.

Anyway, it's just a thought. Either way you are doing a brilliant job at managing your diabetes - you should feel very proud of yourself.

Thank you @Bebo321 I will try your suggestions and see what happens. Watch this space ...

 

[Ian DP]

I have just found this very interesting thread, I too have been doing a few 'experiments' trying to lower my pre breakfast levels, (without much success), but I have found a way of stabilising my morning levels immediately after testing.

* I test very first thing in the morning, as soon as I get up. Over last 8 weeks this has averaged 6.1 (max 7.6, min 5.2).
* Immediately after testing I have some a large handful of fruit ( normally blueberries and/or strawberries, blackcurrents, raspberries) with a good measure of double cream or plain Greek yoghurt.
* my average 1 hour testing after this breakfast over last 8 weeks is 6.4, but I do not do this test every day, as it is so predictable it is a waste of test strips, most of these tests have been when I have been particularly high in the morning. Eg 24-May, pre breakfast reading was 7.0, ate some berries and cream, 1 hour later I was 5.2.
* I always try to keep active immediately after breakfast! sitting down or lying down does not help.

1 to 1 1/2 hours after my berries and cream I have a 2nd breakfast, egg, sausage, bacon mushrooms and tomatoe.
1 hour after my 2nd breakfast my average test reading over last 8 weeks is 5.6

I think the key is; test immediately you get up, eat something quick immediately you get up, then have a proper breakfast later when you can.

This works for me, and if you can fit something like this into your busy morning schedule it may be worth a try.

As for high morning blood sugar levels, I think a lot of it is down to the protein eaten during the day. 10g of protein = around 5g of carbs, but it takes much longer to go through our system. I am actually trying to put on a little weight, so tried upping my fat and protein levels at breakfast and lunch (I am on a LcHf diet). This had no effect on daytime BS levels, but increased my pr-breakfast levels, even though my evening meal was the same or even less. I got to the point of hardly eating anything in the evening, but it made no difference. As soon as I lowered my breakfast and lunch protein levels my pre-breakfast readings came back down to levels beforehand.





Diagnosed T2 in sept 2013, BS levels 20+. BMI 22, age 58. Requested a GAD test in November, came back very high 2,000+, doc said I would be T1 very soon, but presently LADA, and managing to keep 99% of my BS readings one hour after meals under 7.8 without insulin or any medication.
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[Brunneria]

I have just found this very interesting thread, I too have been doing a few 'experiments' trying to lower my pre breakfast levels, (without much success), but I have found a way of stabilising my morning levels immediately after testing.

* I test very first thing in the morning, as soon as I get up. Over last 8 weeks this has averaged 6.1 (max 7.6, min 5.2).
* Immediately after testing I have some a large handful of fruit ( normally blueberries and/or strawberries, blackcurrents, raspberries) with a good measure of double cream or plain Greek yoghurt.
* my average 1 hour testing after this breakfast over last 8 weeks is 6.4, but I do not do this test every day, as it is so predictable it is a waste of test strips, most of these tests have been when I have been particularly high in the morning. Eg 24-May, pre breakfast reading was 7.0, ate some berries and cream, 1 hour later I was 5.2.
* I always try to keep active immediately after breakfast! sitting down or lying down does not help.

1 to 1 1/2 hours after my berries and cream I have a 2nd breakfast, egg, sausage, bacon mushrooms and tomatoe.
1 hour after my 2nd breakfast my average test reading over last 8 weeks is 5.6

I think the key is; test immediately you get up, eat something quick immediately you get up, then have a proper breakfast later when you can.

This works for me, and if you can fit something like this into your busy morning schedule it may be worth a try.

As for high morning blood sugar levels, I think a lot of it is down to the protein eaten during the day. 10g of protein = around 5g of carbs, but it takes much longer to go through our system. I am actually trying to put on a little weight, so tried upping my fat and protein levels at breakfast and lunch (I am on a LcHf diet). This had no effect on daytime BS levels, but increased my pr-breakfast levels, even though my evening meal was the same or even less. I got to the point of hardly eating anything in the evening, but it made no difference. As soon as I lowered my breakfast and lunch protein levels my pre-breakfast readings came back down to levels beforehand.





Diagnosed T2 in sept 2013, BS levels 20+. BMI 22, age 58. Requested a GAD test in November, came back very high 2,000+, doc said I would be T1 very soon, but presently LADA, and managing to keep 99% of my BS readings one hour after meals under 7.8 without insulin or any medication.
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Fascinating - thank you!
I'm impressed you can face berries and cream so early. But it makes sense.
And I like the hobbit inspired second breakfast...

I'm currently trying to reduce my overall protein consumption. The problem is that it is so easy. Ham, cheese, eggs, etc are such easy snacks, packed lunches and breakfasts. And the alternative (to feel full and satisfied) is so much fat. I like it, but there are limits.

 

[Bebo321]

I have just found this very interesting thread, I too have been doing a few 'experiments' trying to lower my pre breakfast levels, (without much success), but I have found a way of stabilising my morning levels immediately after testing.

* I test very first thing in the morning, as soon as I get up. Over last 8 weeks this has averaged 6.1 (max 7.6, min 5.2).
* Immediately after testing I have some a large handful of fruit ( normally blueberries and/or strawberries, blackcurrents, raspberries) with a good measure of double cream or plain Greek yoghurt.
* my average 1 hour testing after this breakfast over last 8 weeks is 6.4, but I do not do this test every day, as it is so predictable it is a waste of test strips, most of these tests have been when I have been particularly high in the morning. Eg 24-May, pre breakfast reading was 7.0, ate some berries and cream, 1 hour later I was 5.2.
* I always try to keep active immediately after breakfast! sitting down or lying down does not help.

1 to 1 1/2 hours after my berries and cream I have a 2nd breakfast, egg, sausage, bacon mushrooms and tomatoe.
1 hour after my 2nd breakfast my average test reading over last 8 weeks is 5.6

I think the key is; test immediately you get up, eat something quick immediately you get up, then have a proper breakfast later when you can.

This works for me, and if you can fit something like this into your busy morning schedule it may be worth a try.

As for high morning blood sugar levels, I think a lot of it is down to the protein eaten during the day. 10g of protein = around 5g of carbs, but it takes much longer to go through our system. I am actually trying to put on a little weight, so tried upping my fat and protein levels at breakfast and lunch (I am on a LcHf diet). This had no effect on daytime BS levels, but increased my pr-breakfast levels, even though my evening meal was the same or even less. I got to the point of hardly eating anything in the evening, but it made no difference. As soon as I lowered my breakfast and lunch protein levels my pre-breakfast readings came back down to levels beforehand.





Diagnosed T2 in sept 2013, BS levels 20+. BMI 22, age 58. Requested a GAD test in November, came back very high 2,000+, doc said I would be T1 very soon, but presently LADA, and managing to keep 99% of my BS readings one hour after meals under 7.8 without insulin or any medication.
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Great info here Ian DP,
May I ask a couple of questions?
What would your BG rise be (roughly) if you didn't take any berries and yoghurt?
Have you tried eating berries without the yoghurt/cream?
Have you found that particular berries have more of a beneficial effect over others?
Do you like citrus fruit? If so, would you have a go at replacing your berries for some orange slices - or even red currants (high citrus content) and see what impact if any that has?

Interesting comment about protein and fasting blood sugars - I'm going to have to do some reading around that when I'm not quite so sleepy!

 

[andcol]

I have made a few posts about protein and my BG levels. My first was after a meat feast where the protein kept me at 5.5 through the night all the way to 11AM. I thought my meter had broken originally. I have now proved it and I get my higher fastings after eating a lot of protein in the evenings and it is highest after eating beef out of all the proteins.

 

[Ian DP]

May I ask a couple of questions?:

Hi bebo,
I don't know what my BG rise would be if I didn't take any berries
I am on a LcHf diet, so eating just fruit is like eating just carbs, so I always have some 'fat' with them. Most LcHf diets do not recommend any fruit, but I find a handful or one smallish apple is ok with me.
Any berries (or any fruit) that can be grown in the uk seems fine. Eg most berries, apples, pairs.
I avoid Mediterranean fruits (oranges, grapes, bananas). These tend to have higher carbs, and certainly seem to result on higher BG for me
Red currents should be fine, I have not tried them.



Diagnosed T2 in sept 2013, BS levels 20+. BMI 22, age 58. Requested a GAD test in November, came back very high 2,000+, doc said I would be T1 very soon, but presently LADA, and managing to keep 99% of my BS readings one hour after meals under 7.8 without insulin or any medication.
Sent from the Diabetes Forum App

 

[Bebo321]

I have made a few posts about protein and my BG levels. My first was after a meat feast where the protein kept me at 5.5 through the night all the way to 11AM. I thought my meter had broken originally. I have now proved it and I get my higher fastings after eating a lot of protein in the evenings and it is highest after eating beef out of all the proteins.

Wow!
That's great Andrew!
Just out of interest - have you discovered any particularly appetising evening meals that do the job of keeping fasting BGs low for you? I have trouble thinking of something appetising that doesn't involve a good dollop of protein.

 

[sanguine]

Woke up to 6.5 (!). I don't know if it's related to Andrew's beef protein effect, but I had a good quality burger (no bun, salad) last night but was 6.3 after 2 hours (5.3 before eating). Had bacon/egg/mushroom/tomato breakfast, then walked into the office from hotel (30 minutes) and walked up to the 11th floor. Then I tested at 6.2, so presumably the exercise burned off any impact from breakfast and then some.

 

[andcol]

Wow!
That's great Andrew!
Just out of interest - have you discovered any particularly appetising evening meals that do the job of keeping fasting BGs low for you? I have trouble thinking of something appetising that doesn't involve a good dollop of protein.

It is funny but I seem to be lower after a more carby less protein/fat evening meal. Not what you want to hear, but I am never that high now

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[sanguine]

So maybe I should have had the bun with the burger after all ...

But I suspect it's never as easy as that, we are all different in our makeup and body behaviour when it comes to the nuances.

 

[Bluetit1802]

.......... and Andrew has all but reversed his diabetes, so his current methods may not suit us all just yet.

 

[Bebo321]

Hey there,
Remember the #gbdoc tweet chat at 9pm this evening is about the dawn phenomena. Hope to see you there!

 

[andcol]

So maybe I should have had the bun with the burger after all ...

But I suspect it's never as easy as that, we are all different in our makeup and body behaviour when it comes to the nuances.

Don't know about that. I no longer see levels above 8 whatever I eat so what now works for me probably will not work for you.

 

[Ian DP]

Another thing I have found, is never do any testing within an hour of having a cup of tea or coffee. Milk has quite a lot of natural sugar in it, and I have found it seems to travel fast. Not good to get up in the morning, have a cup of tea then test.


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[Bluetit1802]

Another thing I have found, is never do any testing within an hour of having a cup of tea or coffee. Milk has quite a lot of natural sugar in it, and I have found it seems to travel fast. Not good to get up in the morning, have a cup of tea then test.


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I agree about tea with milk affecting readings. However, I decided that as I always have and always will have a mug of tea once my meal is finished there is little point in depriving myself of it just so I can get a lower reading for my records. I may as well have the tea and record the reading, because that is the reality. I see no point in falsifying reality.

 

[peacetrain]

I agree about tea with milk affecting readings. However, I decided that as I always have and always will have a mug of tea once my meal is finished there is little point in depriving myself of it just so I can get a lower reading for my records. I may as well have the tea and record the reading, because that is the reality. I see no point in falsifying reality.

I think Ian meant don't drink the tea straight after you have taken your first bg reading as this would affect your bg level and show up on the test you do before breakfast... I think?


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[Bluetit1802]

Oh. OK. I can see that is a good point. It didn't occur to me because my fasting test is the same as pre-breakfast. I don't test twice.

 

[peacetrain]

Ah sorry Bluetit, I may have you confused with Brunneria. I may not have read every post and I assumed Ian was trying to solve problem of increase between waking and pre breakfast levels.


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