Type1. Protein??

[vxrich]

Ok so I do lots of exercise, run, ride, swim and weights. My question is... Since being on a lchf diet Ive cut down on the amount of protein that I used to eat due to the fact that I now have to bolus for it. Hard to explain but if I train more do my muscles absorb more protein to recover or will they only absorb so much and convert the rest to carbs? I think that makes sense??
What I think Im trying to say is it possible to to eat high qtys of protein on lchf or will this just not work due to the fact my body will convert too much protein to carbs?
Also need a bit of advice on using the extended bolus on my pump. Never used it as I generally used the multiwave function but from what Ive read its quite commonly used on lchf diets.

Ta

 

[Applenerd81]

Harder you train (heavy lifting) the more protein your body will need for repair and you will also be more sensitive to insulin so yes, the glycogenesis effect should be less. So it is possible to eat more protein on lchf when training hard. Check out keto calculator on google and you will find a tool to calculate your protein range for your body.

Extended bolus is useful for high protein high fat meals where digestion and break down into glucose is slow. Takes a bit of trial and error to work out what will work best for you. Test before you eat/bolus and again every hour after your meal to see if you have estimated right. Things heavy with cheese/ fatty meats can raise BGs for hours after eating them for some including myself.

 

[reidpj]

Glucagon drives gluconeogenesis not the amount of dietary protein. The body should excrete (waste) excess protein.

 

[ewelina]

There are three types of boluses: standard, extended and multiwave. The last one is a combination of standard and extended. You bolus some insulin at the time of eating (standard bolus) and then extend the rest. For meal without carbs you would use only extended as you don't need any insulin at the time of eating. Hope that helps

 

[mfactor]

I asked this on my weight training forum a while back and the answer given was that you would have to take 300g per day of protein for it to be a problem...

So not a problem for most of us...........


The Keto calculator is good and gave me a range for protein of 110-180 grams per day, depending on how much training I do...

 

[vxrich]

Thanks for the help. So reidpj, are you saying that a high protein intake is possible so long has my body is using fat as fuel and not having to convert protein to fuel?
Ta

 

[vxrich]

I'm a bit confused now cos I'm struggling to get my ketone level above 0.9. I'm only eating 20-30g carbs, I've lowered my protein levels by half thinking this was the problem. How long does it take to get into ketosis and what else could I be doing wrong?

 

[tim2000s]

I asked this on my weight training forum a while back and the answer given was that you would have to take 300g per day of protein for it to be a problem...

So not a problem for most of us...........


The Keto calculator is good and gave me a range for protein of 110-180 grams per day, depending on how much training I do...

Be wary of this. As a diabetic your reaction to protein and gluconeogenesis (GNG) is not the same as that of a non-diabetic. I've spent a long time looking at this over the past year and have documented my thoughts throughout the forum.

Speaking from a T1 perspective, my sample of n=1, whilst eating a diet where there was 200g-250g of protein a day (which amounted to 40%-50% of my daily calorie intake) I saw a very pronounced GNG effect. If I ate a meal the bolus would account for an initial jump, that I believe can be attributed to a glucagon release in response to an expected insulin release that doesn't occur in diabetics. What I then see is, over a 1-3 hour period, a steady increase in blood glucose levels, which I believe is GNG taking place. I wrote a post here about accounting for this effect using MDI.

In a non-diabetic, the beta cells also release Amylin, which reduces the impact of glucagon and stops the liver from dropping glucose into the blood.

There are also a number of studies that show that protein and fat together have an increased glycaemic effect in diabetics. As a result, if you are eating LC, HF, MP (medium Protein) it does have a pronounced effect on blood glucose.

Typically LCHF has a proportion of 80-85% Fat, 10-15% protein and 5% Carbs. If you are eating more protein than this then it can be hard to maintain ketosis.

I've tested this reaction to protein using 90% whey isolate that has 1g of carb in a 30g serving. It is 24g of protein, and after drinking the shake, I get a reaction that is similar to eating about 15-20g of carbs. If you read amongst various body building sites and papers, you'll see that one of the functions of the whey protein is to force an insulin reaction. In a non-diabetic this is accompanied by glucagon release to counter the insulin. If you don't have any insulin, the glucagon is still released, your liver still dumps glucose as a result, but there is nothing telling your body to use the glucose and therefore your bg rises.,

I eat a Low Carb diet, but I don't describe it as LCHF as there is too much protein, and I therefore almost never hit ketosis, in spite of having around 30g of carbs a day. If you are excreting protein in your urine as a T1 you are eating too much, and putting too much pressure on your kidneys, which is something you really don't want to do.

A few more links for you on this topic:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...n-glycaemic-control-in-type-1-diabetes.80911/
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/insulin-load-index-most-ketogenic-foods.75704/

 

[vxrich]

Wow that's what I call a reply! Had to have a shave after reading that
Very interesting tho and it kinda wraps up my life as a very active T1!
T1 is never easy but add in lots of exercise and it becomes even more complicated! So as I exercise a lot I feel that I need more than average qtys of protein to help recovery/muscle growth so I'm confused on what to do? I'm happy with my weight loss and feel that I'm at a suitable weight now. But do I need to be in ketosis to gain all the benefits of using fat for fuel or is there a middle ground where I can eat lchf with higher amounts of protein? AAAAAHHHH!
Also how do I check for protein in urine? Are there test strips available at chemists?
Ta

 

[reidpj]

I use the test strips (Dus 10) from Homehealth Ltd - the suppliers of the Codefree BS system.

Don't forget that insulin is required to get the protein substrates into muscle cells - which will reduce the available insulin available to reduce plasma glucose - so, it may be a good idea to avoid eating carbs and protein at the same time (something that I have done for years; which helps to keep my glucose levels within the 'normal' range).

I'm on the large side at 117kg and consume, on average, around 65g of protein per day (just over 0.5g per kg of total body weight) but I still show a tiny amount of protein in my urine - we really do over-consume protein in the Western World. I, also, try to break my protein intake up during the day in order to mitigate its effects on GNC, glucagon, etc.

 

[Applenerd81]

Can't agree more on the consumption of excess protein in the west. Way too much! Only elite bodybuilders have the requirement and even in their case it's probably not "healthy".

 

[Applenerd81]

Wow that's what I call a reply! Had to have a shave after reading that
Very interesting tho and it kinda wraps up my life as a very active T1!
T1 is never easy but add in lots of exercise and it becomes even more complicated! So as I exercise a lot I feel that I need more than average qtys of protein to help recovery/muscle growth so I'm confused on what to do? I'm happy with my weight loss and feel that I'm at a suitable weight now. But do I need to be in ketosis to gain all the benefits of using fat for fuel or is there a middle ground where I can eat lchf with higher amounts of protein? AAAAAHHHH!
Also how do I check for protein in urine? Are there test strips available at chemists?
Ta

You probably don't need anywhere near what you think. Eat as little as you can get away with, the only way to be sure of netting your requirements is to monitor your lean body mass (not just body weight) and make sure you are either maintaining or gaining (which is very slow unless your taking anabolic steroids).
The protein requirements highlighted on bodybuilding forums and the likes are not for mere mortals/amateur bodybuilders.

 

[Applenerd81]

I'm a bit confused now cos I'm struggling to get my ketone level above 0.9. I'm only eating 20-30g carbs, I've lowered my protein levels by half thinking this was the problem. How long does it take to get into ketosis and what else could I be doing wrong?

0.9 ketones with good bg is a healthy level of ketosis for someone on insulin. Don't worry and carry on as you are!

 

[Applenerd81]

Glucagon drives gluconeogenesis not the amount of dietary protein. The body should excrete (waste) excess protein.

All I know is on LCHF my dietary protein intake raises blood glucose, more protein = higher blood glucose.

 

[vxrich]

Being an ex bodybuilder I understand the protein consumption but I now do more triathlons so more concerned about recovery. I feel good so reckon I'm worrying about it all too much. Onwards and upwards then!
While I'm here any quick ideas for lchf meal sides? Getting a bit bored of spinach and kale! Not too keen on egg plant either
Ta

 

[reidpj]

All I know is on LCHF my dietary protein intake raises blood glucose, more protein = higher blood glucose.

But it's not the presence of protein that switches on gluconeogenisis (or the breakdown of stored glycogen), it's the presence of glucagon. If you can suppress glucagon secreation, the liver will neither make, nor release stored, glucose; not matter how much protein you consume. Conversely, if you stimulate glucagon secreation, the liver will synthesis (from muscle, etc) new glucose, even in the absence of dietary protein.

 

[vxrich]

So how can I suppress glucagon secretion?

 

[tim2000s]

But it's not the presence of protein that switches on gluconeogenisis (or the breakdown of stored glycogen), it's the presence of glucagon. If you can suppress glucagon secreation, the liver will neither make, nor release stored, glucose; not matter how much protein you consume. Conversely, if you stimulate glucagon secreation, the liver will synthesis (from muscle, etc) new glucose, even in the absence of dietary protein.

It is the presence of protein that switches on the glucagon secretion in this instance. It does this by triggering an insulin reaction with no carbs present, as insulin is needed for amino acid transport into cells. If you have insulin you need glucose and if this hasn't been eaten, then glucagon is released to get it from the liver processing glycogen. Thus, it is the presence of protein that causes the increase in blood glucose levels.

So how can I suppress glucagon secretion?

In a healthy non-diabetic, the beta cells have multiple roles. One is to release insulin and the another is to release Amylin. Amylin slows digestion and crucially suppresses the action of glucagon in the liver. There is also some indication that it can limit the release of glucagon from the alpha cells.

As a T1 with no beta cells, you don't have this mechanism. In the US there is a product called Symlin which is synthetic Amylin and it can be prescribed. It is not licensed in the UK due to fears over the hormone causing hypos.

Insulin can also limit glucagon's action, but not terribly efficiently and if you are injecting it, the majority of your insulin hits the muscles and not the liver, where it is needed to reduce GNG.

 

[reidpj]

It is the presence of protein that switches on the glucagon secretion. It does this by triggering an insulin reaction with no carbs present, as insulin is needed for amino acid transport into cells. If you have insulin you need glucose and if this hasn't been eaten, then glucagon is released to get it from the liver processing glycogen. Thus, it is the presence of protein that causes the increase in blood glucose levels.


In a healthy non-diabetic, the beta cells have multiple roles. One is to release insulin and the another is to release Amylin. Amylin slows digestion and crucially suppresses the action of glucagon in the liver. There is also some indication that it can limit the release of glucagon from the alpha cells.

As a T1 with no beta cells, you don't have this mechanism. In the US there is a product called Symlin which is synthetic Amylin and it can be prescribed. It is not licensed in the UK due to fears over the hormone causing hypos.

Insulin can also limit glucagon's action, but not terribly efficiently and if you are injecting it, the majority of your insulin hits the muscles and not the liver, where it is needed to reduce GNG.

No argument from me, but.... dietary protein does not trigger glucagon secreation when the body precieves that you're hypoglycaemic , nor, indeed, when you experience an adrenaline surge.

 

[reidpj]

So how can I suppress glucagon secretion?

Metformin is thought to 'block' the liver's glucagon receptors, as well as promote the secreation of GLP-1 from 'L' cells (GLP-1 acts on the pancreas to both stimulate insulin secreation and inhibit glucagon release)

I, personally, find that if I keep my (very limited) carbs away from my protein intake (so that they're not 'competing' for any available insulin), and that if I break my protein intake up during the day (not such a great glucagon surge??), my liver seems to not produce so much glucose. e.g. 20g of protein = no BS rise (60g = + 3-4); 10g of carbs = no BS rise; 20g of protein + 10g of carbs = + 3

I always add fat to any carbs to slow their digestion.