Advice - balancing electrolytes and hydration

[Goonergal]

Hi all. Some advice needed. May be a long post but want to give enough detail. Details is supplements etc. at end.

I am having problems balancing electrolytes and hydration. Cramps are a big issue, particularly during exercise (swimming really sets them off, but also Pilates and gym to a lesser extent) and sometimes during the night.

I am having to drink lots of water to stay hydrated, particularly during fasting days when I pee for England! Waking up dehydrated more often than I’d like.

Feel I’m doing all the right things - taking magnesium supplements, adding salt to food (and sometimes tea), drinking plenty of water, yet the problems persist and I’m wondering whether the balance is right - am I drinking too much and causing an electrolyte imbalance?

Is there something else I’ve missed?

Any thoughts would be welcome. Thanks.

Background - ketogenic diet (not quite carnivore but getting there), 600mg magnesium supplements (citrate) taken daily split 20mg first thing, rest with dinner (along with vitamins D3 and K2), minimum 2.5 litres water a day, often more; blood sugars well within normal range (monthly averages 4.8 mmol). Sometimes use magnesium oil, especially after exercise, but even the sensitive version causes some irritation to my skin so not keen to up usage of that.

Editing to say that upping the magnesium citrate to any great extent (more than a couple of days / more than a couple of tablets) causes bathroom issues!

 

[Indy51]

My question is: are you drinking so much because you're thirsty or because you think you should drink a specific amount per day? I think Prof Noakes is pretty big on drinking only to thirst and nothing more.

 

[Rachox]

I was going to suggest magnesium oil but you say you can’t tolerate it well. Magnesium orally apparently isn’t absorbed very well. Can you rotate the sites on your body that you apply the oil? Also is it tingling you feel when you apply it, as that’s supposed to be an indicator that you are deficient? Therefore logically the tingling would go when you have enough on board.

 

[Bittern]

Current UK advice is 1.5 to 2 Lt per day adjusted up in hot weather. The way we were taught to gauge it in hot areas was by pee colour pale yellow OK, any deeper colour drink more, clear drink less. This a crude measure but has worked for me in some very hot areas. Never had serious dehydration. I'm no medic but would suggest drink to thirst but also reduce all your supplements to zero and see how it goes. There are colour charts for urine on the net for a better idea of colour.

 

[Indy51]

Some other suggestions:

Epsom salts baths - even foot baths are apparently helpful
Drinking a reputable/verified source mineral water (preferably from a glass bottle, not plastic)
Add Himalayan salt to your drinks - amount according to taste

 

[Goonergal]

Hi All

Thanks for your input. Some thoughts below.

My question is: are you drinking so much because you're thirsty or because you think you should drink a specific amount per day? I think Prof Noakes is pretty big on drinking only to thirst and nothing more.

Drinking to thirst and/or dry mouth (seems worse when fasting and in deep ketosis, the metallic taste seems to be accompanied by dry mouth/thirst). Assume dehydration some mornings as awake with a mild headache that disappears after a couple of glasses of water.

reduce all your supplements to zero and see how it goes.

What's the thinking behind that suggestion?

Some other suggestions:

Epsom salts baths - even foot baths are apparently helpful
Drinking a reputable/verified source mineral water (preferably from a glass bottle, not plastic)
Add Himalayan salt to your drinks - amount according to taste

Will have a go at those, thanks.

I was going to suggest magnesium oil but you say you can’t tolerate it well. Magnesium orally apparently isn’t absorbed very well. Can you rotate the sites on your body that you apply the oil? Also is it tingling you feel when you apply it, as that’s supposed to be an indicator that you are deficient? Therefore logically the tingling would go when you have enough on board.

Not just tingling - itching. Gave up with the standard oil as definitely allergic. The sensitive one is less irritating but still uncomfortable.

I have booked in for some Medichecks tests which include magnesium so at least I'll be able to understand whether there's a deficiency or if something else is going on.

 

[DCUKMod]

I was going to suggest magnesium oil but you say you can’t tolerate it well. Magnesium orally apparently isn’t absorbed very well. Can you rotate the sites on your body that you apply the oil? Also is it tingling you feel when you apply it, as that’s supposed to be an indicator that you are deficient? Therefore logically the tingling would go when you have enough on board.

Rachox - I have issues with magnesium oil, which I posted about on a thyroid forum.

I use the Ancient Minerals oil, 6 sprays a night and I rotate sites. Initially, I had a mild tingling, but as time goes (i mean the number of days as opposed to minutes/hours post-application) on the tingling intensifies to a burning sensation and I have had eczema break out in the crook of an elbow, so naturally, I avoid any such areas.

About the only place I have tried is my upper back. I'm a bendy person, so I can reach it, but having had a go, over this last weekend, on my lower back, that's already uncomfortable, so won't bother going further up.

I'm going to be away from home for a few nights this week, so will have a break from the oil then, but am pondering my next steps to consider a trial at least of an oral route.

Sorry, @Goonergal , to jump into your thread.

Goonergal, could I ask you though, when you state that even with all you're doing you wake up dehydrated more often than you feel comfortable with, what is your favoured metric for dehydration?

Edited to acknowledge your dry mouth explanation.

Do you sleep with your mouth open? mouth breathing - especially if you are in a deep, deep sleep could do that on it's own.

 

[hankjam]

@Goonergal with you on the cramps when swimming and doing the morning exercises. I think I probably drink too much water, spend a lot of time passing colourless liquids. Last time I was in the GP's they had a colour chart up for checking dehydration and made me think.. I take the occasional multivit and a lot of salt over various foods, esp celery!! Thinking I will probably cut back a bit on the water and see how it goes.
Hope it goes better as the cramps are pretty hellish.

 

[Bluetit1802]

@Goonergal

A word of warning about your Medicheks magnesium test. Magnesium does not stay in the blood stream, therefore lack of it in blood tests is pretty meaningless apparently. It doesn't necessarily mean you are deficient. It is a reason why we don't have magnesium blood tests as routine.

Potassium deficiency is another cause of cramps. Have you followed that through?

I also have a dry mouth and a metallic taste. It is annoying. I doubt in my case it is anything to do with sleeping with my mouth open (although I often do) as it occurs at any time during the day and isn't there all the time. I solve it by giving my teeth an extra clean or by swilling my mouth out with water rather than drinking more.

 

[hankjam]

Drinking to thirst and/or dry mouth (seems worse when fasting and in deep ketosis, the metallic taste seems to be accompanied by dry mouth/thirst). Assume dehydration some mornings as awake with a mild headache that disappears after a couple of glasses of water.

and @Bluetit1802
The metallic taste in my mouth is something that is really beginning to get me down. My sense of taste seems to have been shot to ribbons, if such a thing was possible. it can go on for days....
I am pretty low carb but not enough for deep ketosis.

 

[Bittern]

@Goonergal
The reason for suggesting stopping the supplements, and it was confined to electrolytes, is that if you are taking too much the body will seek to restore the balance. To do so it will make you urinate more by making you drink more so you may be chasing your tail. Just a thought.

 

[Bluetit1802]

and @Bluetit1802
The metallic taste in my mouth is something that is really beginning to get me down. My sense of taste seems to have been shot to ribbons, if such a thing was possible. it can go on for days....
I am pretty low carb but not enough for deep ketosis.

I'm not sure if it affects my taste when eating. Maybe it does. I can just feel it with my tongue on my teeth, and the dryness makes me feel as though I have bad breath. It isn't pleasant. I don't test my ketones so have no idea if or when I'm in ketosis. It isn't thirst - I can feel it now and have just finished a mug of tea.

 

[Goonergal]

Thanks all for the responses. Frantic day at work so just catching up. It’s interesting - before diagnosis I got severe, nightly cramps in both legs. When I first dropped the carbs they completely disappeared but then started coming back.

Do you sleep with your mouth open? mouth breathing - especially if you are in a deep, deep sleep could do that on it's own.

I don’t think so (no-one to tell me). Before I lost my weight definitely did - used to wake myself up snoring when I dozed off on the sofa!! That doesn’t happen anymore and I no longer wake up with a sore throat.

@Goonergal with you on the cramps when swimming and doing the morning exercises. I think I probably drink too much water, spend a lot of time passing colourless liquids. Last time I was in the GP's they had a colour chart up for checking dehydration and made me think.. I take the occasional multivit and a lot of salt over various foods, esp celery!! Thinking I will probably cut back a bit on the water and see how it goes. Hope it goes better as the cramps are pretty hellish.

Wondered if I am drinking too much. Worth a try.

Magnesium does not stay in the blood stream, therefore lack of it in blood tests is pretty meaningless apparently. It doesn't necessarily mean you are deficient. It is a reason why we don't have magnesium blood tests as routine.Potassium deficiency is another cause of cramps. Have you followed that through?

Thanks, that’s interesting. Magnesium happens to be included in a raft of blood tests. Will see if I can add potassium to the order and get it all done at the same time.

I also have a dry mouth and a metallic taste. It is annoying. I doubt in my case it is anything to do with sleeping with my mouth open (although I often do) as it occurs at any time during the day and isn't there all the time.

Very annoying. Mine too comes at any time of the day - it’s there now (and has been all day) despite having just eaten and drunk a glass of water. Is worse when fasting.

The reason for suggesting stopping the supplements, and it was confined to electrolytes, is that if you are taking too much the body will seek to restore the balance. To do so it will make you urinate more by making you drink more so you may be chasing your tail. Just a thought

Thanks. That’s also worth a try. One thing at a time though!

Thanks again all. Will report back.

 

[shelley262]

Hi @Goonergal magnesium bisglycinate tak3n orally although more expensive seems to be absorbed better by my digestion and without a doubt works better for me than the citrate stuff and for me dosent cause the tummy reaction!
I’ve also read more recently about the balance of potassium and magnesium and relationship to cramp - sorry can’t remember the thread! Has resulted in me looking more at potassium and of particular interest is that when I was high carb I clearly had lots and lots of potassium with one or two bananas a day, orange juice, lots of veg and lots of spuds and now probably have a lot less now - well I know I do! So maybe it’s the balance? Gather potassium supplements are not taken up as easily as they are in food so looking at having more low carb containing potassium stuff such as green veg, nuts etc and possibly lowering magnesium and balancing with potassium - cor we are living human experiments! Of note though my cramp is way better with the more expensive magnesium supplement. I find the spray makes me itch and dosent work so well for me.
Do hope you find the solution we are low carb pioneers!

 

[Goonergal]

Hi @Goonergal magnesium bisglycinate tak3n orally although more expensive seems to be absorbed better by my digestion and without a doubt works better for me than the citrate stuff and for me dosent cause the tummy reaction!
I’ve also read more recently about the balance of potassium and magnesium and relationship to cramp - sorry can’t remember the thread! Has resulted in me looking more at potassium and of particular interest is that when I was high carb I clearly had lots and lots of potassium with one or two bananas a day, orange juice, lots of veg and lots of spuds and now probably have a lot less now - well I know I do! So maybe it’s the balance? Gather potassium supplements are not taken up as easily as they are in food so looking at having more low carb containing potassium stuff such as green veg, nuts etc and possibly lowering magnesium and balancing with potassium - cor we are living human experiments! Of note though my cramp is way better with the more expensive magnesium supplement. I find the spray makes me itch and dosent work so well for me.
Do hope you find the solution we are low carb pioneers!

Thanks. Where do you get the bisglycinate? You mentioned it before and I’ve looked in Holland and Barrett but haven’t found it. I’ve just added a potassium test to the Medichecks order - they had a Black Friday sale so ordered a package of several tests. If I have any blood left after my planned visit to their walk-in clinic on Saturday it will be a miracle.

 

[shelley262]

Thanks. Where do you get the bisglycinate? You mentioned it before and I’ve looked in Holland and Barrett but haven’t found it. I’ve just added a potassium test to the Medichecks order - they had a Black Friday sale so ordered a package of several tests. If I have any blood left after my planned visit to their walk-in clinic on Saturday it will be a miracle.

Got from amazon
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Magnesium-...keywords=magnesium+bisglycinate+500mg+tablets
Now on 2nd lot and seems to be working for me. I get a tiny bit of potential cramp - round the edges of one calf - sometimes but nothing like I did.

 

[CoastGirl]

Hi @Goonergal, a couple of thoughts .....

Having a bath or footbath with Dead Sea salts, for minimum 20 minutes, gives a balance of minerals such as magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium and crosses the skin barrier very effectively. I find it works to give a good balance rather than trying to supplement orally.

Metallic taste in the mouth can be a very common symptom of h-pylori especially when it is not bad enough to show the other symptoms like nausea and diarrhoea.

Hope this helps

 

[Goonergal]

Got from amazon
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Magnesium-...keywords=magnesium+bisglycinate+500mg+tablets
Now on 2nd lot and seems to be working for me. I get a tiny bit of potential cramp - round the edges of one calf - sometimes but nothing like I did.

Thanks. Don’t seem to be any more expensive than the brand of magnesium citrate I’ve been using. Still have a 120 capsule bottle of that left but will order some of these and see how I go.

 

[SueJB]

Thanks all for the responses. Frantic day at work so just catching up. It’s interesting - before diagnosis I got severe, nightly cramps in both legs. When I first dropped the carbs they completely disappeared but then started coming back.



I don’t think so (no-one to tell me). Before I lost my weight definitely did - used to wake myself up snoring when I dozed off on the sofa!! That doesn’t happen anymore and I no longer wake up with a sore throat.



Wondered if I am drinking too much. Worth a try.



Thanks, that’s interesting. Magnesium happens to be included in a raft of blood tests. Will see if I can add potassium to the order and get it all done at the same time.



Very annoying. Mine too comes at any time of the day - it’s there now (and has been all day) despite having just eaten and drunk a glass of water. Is worse when fasting.



Thanks. That’s also worth a try. One thing at a time though!

Thanks again all. Will report back.

@Goonergal my severe and I mean mega severe screaming leg cramps disappeared when I was prescribed potassium. Might be worth talking to your doctor

 

[Goonergal]

@Goonergal my severe and I mean mega severe screaming leg cramps disappeared when I was prescribed potassium. Might be worth talking to your doctor

Thanks. Am getting potassium levels checked (via Medichecks) and will talk to the doctor if that shows a deficiency.