To resign or to get sacked?!

[UK T1]

Hi, totally agree with the post above. It is unreasonable to demand you to return to the workplace if you are able to complete tasks remotely. Are you able to volunteer for example to:
Email/ring families to perform welfare type checks and offer 1:1 help with distance learning? I know some teachers and teaching assistants have continued supporting pupils in this way, even doing skype/zoom type shared screen worked through examples. I don't mean sharing videos of your face/the pupil's face, I mean to share the work. Many pupils will not need to return to school, and the lockdown states that pupils should remain at home if possible. Pupils who are struggling with the sudden change of routine might benefit from a daily/weekly check in phone call though, so you can still be helping them.
Is there any planning or preparation of resources you could be making remotely for teachers who are in school or pupils working from home to use?

Your employer has a duty of cafe to safeguard your health, both physical and mental health. Continuing to provide support from home is a reasonable adjustment and I'd be surprised if they did not accept that.

FYI the NEU (National Education Union) recommends that: 'No one at heightened risk should attend schools and colleges from today. No staff should attend who are vulnerable or go home to family who are at risk.'
https://neu.org.uk/advice/coronavirus-keeping-yourself-safe
Important to note that they're including vulnerable adults and adults with vulnerable family members at home, NOT just extremely vulnerable.

 

[Max68]

@DCUKMod

Wow, one brave lady in more ways than one, certainly braver than I. She is certainly an inspiration.

I agree with you and wouldn't ordinarily be concerned but I get the impression it's purely a child care reason rather than educational. It's also an Autism School and that unfortunately means that most students don't have a great grasp of social awareness and social behaviour, and with social distancing you need a disciplined grasp on the situation and I'm not sure if staff can't guarantee their own safety whether therefore you can then guarantee the child's safety which of course is the whole point of such a school. We are doing a lot of home learning via Zoom which is going very well so I guess it comes down to the question of are these children and staff safer at home than they would be at school in the current climate and considering each child comes in via taxi I have my doubts. I think the whole point of the "experiment" is to prove to parents and child that it's not going to be a "regular" day in the hope that parents will then decide it's not worth it, but what price on an experiment? But as you say I will see how things develop.

 

[Max68]

@UK T1

Thanks for your reply. Yep we are doing all the Zoom stuff, regular phone calls, lessons via zoom and work packs which is all going very well,. Face to face as well which is why they insist on various safeguarding policies like a support assistant as well as a teacher in the call. I don't do phone calls myself as I was on a role transporting a student from their home to college originally so wasn't part of a big tutor group, and in fact I think the idea was to take me out of a tutor group totally after Easter as I was always transporting the student at the times of the group so the tutor was left with little support. I was asked last week to take over a phone call to one parent but the parent didn't want that. They wanted the same person who has done it for the last two years as it was familiarity etc which I must say wasn't a surprise. Why they wanted to change tack now of all times was baffling!

I have been doing online research for teachers and will be supporting zoom lessons from this Monday so it's all done remotely at the moment and I am absolutely fine doing that. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with doing research for other teachers and have offered to do quizzes for the kids and have explained this to my Line Manager. The thing is the Union, not sure which one, but it wasn't the one I'm a member of were the ones that two weeks prior to the school being closed totally were the ones that sent those of us home with health conditions or those with family with health conditions, which ironically included the Assistant Head who is the one promoting this "letter from a GP" so it would be interesting to see if he is included in this attendance at school. Not really sure what letter they require either. Maybe it's just to confirm you have a certain condition because I guess they just have your word for it as you declare it after interview. Just seems a waste of time on a GP who probably has far more important things to do at the moment especially when a school can just open all those links above top see the advice!

 

[DCUKMod]

@UK T1

Thanks for your reply. Yep we are doing all the Zoom stuff, regular phone calls, lessons via zoom and work packs which is all going very well,. Face to face as well which is why they insist on various safeguarding policies like a support assistant as well as a teacher in the call. I don't do phone calls myself as I was on a role transporting a student from their home to college originally so wasn't part of a big tutor group, and in fact I think the idea was to take me out of a tutor group totally after Easter as I was always transporting the student at the times of the group so the tutor was left with little support. I was asked last week to take over a phone call to one parent but the parent didn't want that. They wanted the same person who has done it for the last two years as it was familiarity etc which I must say wasn't a surprise. Why they wanted to change tack now of all times was baffling!

I have been doing online research for teachers and will be supporting zoom lessons from this Monday so it's all done remotely at the moment and I am absolutely fine doing that. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with doing research for other teachers and have offered to do quizzes for the kids and have explained this to my Line Manager. The thing is the Union, not sure which one, but it wasn't the one I'm a member of were the ones that two weeks prior to the school being closed totally were the ones that sent those of us home with health conditions or those with family with health conditions, which ironically included the Assistant Head who is the one promoting this "letter from a GP" so it would be interesting to see if he is included in this attendance at school. Not really sure what letter they require either. Maybe it's just to confirm you have a certain condition because I guess they just have your word for it as you declare it after interview. Just seems a waste of time on a GP who probably has far more important things to do at the moment especially when a school can just open all those links above top see the advice!

To be fair, if you are to be excused from attending your workplace (anyone attending any workplace), then there has to be a reason, and if such a reason is medical, it should be verified; hence the GP letter. Otherwise there'd be masses, including key workers just deciding they're vulnerable with something or the other.

My OH's daughter is brave, but she was frightened before going back. She was frightened of what she didn't know, how it would work and whether the works spoken would actually translate into actions.

 

[Max68]

Well the GP phone call was pretty much a waste of time. With regard to myself she said - "Whilst Diabetes and high blood pressure places you at greater risk of serious complications if you were to contract Covid19 diabetes or high blood pressure is not currently on the shielding list. However diabetes is on the list of you being at higher risk of serious complications so as per government guidelines this places you in the "be particularly stringent in following social distancing measures." list and are strongly advised to work from home if possible. It is down to your employer if they wish you to return to work to make sure that you are safe".

The irony being we "were" on the original shielding list. I can only imagine it meant there were too many to send a letter to so diabetes was taken off.

So no letter from her but the employer can contact my GP to get clarification on my conditions. So, how much do I love this job?!?!

 

[Brunneria]

Well the GP phone call was pretty much a waste of time. With regard to myself she said - "Whilst Diabetes and high blood pressure places you at greater risk of serious complications if you were to contract Covid19 diabetes or high blood pressure is not currently on the shielding list. However diabetes is on the list of you being at higher risk of serious complications so as per government guidelines this places you in the "be particularly stringent in following social distancing measures." list and are strongly advised to work from home if possible. It is down to your employer if they wish you to return to work to make sure that you are safe".

The irony being we "were" on the original shielding list. I can only imagine it meant there were too many to send a letter to so diabetes was taken off.

So no letter from her but the employer can contact my GP to get clarification on my conditions. So, how much do I love this job?!?!

Looks like your doc is up to speed, then.
Just one point of clarification - there was no 'original' Shielding list. The Shielding category was introduced some time after the high risk 'stringently social distancing for people with diabetes and other conditions' info was given out, at the time we were all asked to introduce social distancing. That social distancing info was the 'original' list and the Shielding designation appeared later and included a much smaller group.

Please don't think I am unsympathetic to your situation. I feel for you, and maintaining social distancing in your work environment must be an absolute nightmare.

The reason I made the above comment is because I think you will make further progress, and be more likely to get your manager on board, if you stick to the 'stringent social distance' argument, rather than muddying the water with discussions of what may, or may not, have been the guidance in the past.

 

[Max68]

@Brunneria

My mistake then I'm sure I read on here somewhere back in March that diabetes was on the "shield for 12 weeks" list and then diabetes disappeared from the update about a week later. Plus the Union at work when we were first sent home apparently stated that we were on the stay at home for 12 weeks list as that was why I was pulled into the Line Managers office and sent home on 18th March.

Oh well. Spoke to my Line Manager this morning and she asked me to forward an email to her about what the GP said about "Stringent Social Distancing" and also told me to mention I haven't left the house in four weeks and she will forward to the Head. As I said above I wouldn't ordinarily be concerned if this was a country wide easing back but it's not, it's an experiment to try and show parents it currently won't work and I am just reluctant to take the risk for an experiment!

 

[HSSS]

@Max68

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...protecting-older-people-and-vulnerable-adults

these are the official guidelines that talk about being especially stringent. Maybe it’ll help

 

[Max68]

@HSSS Many thanks for that. Indeed it was one of three links I sent this morning

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-guidance-on-social-distancing-and-for-vulnerable-people/guidance-on-social-distancing-for-everyone-in-the-uk-and-protecting-older-people-and-vulnerable-adults

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-coronaviruses

https://www.england.nhs.uk/coronavirus/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2020/03/200321_COVID-19_CMO_MD_letter-to-GPs_FINAL_2.pdf

Sent those three as they seem quite oblivious in some ways. Have requested that I am allowed to work from home until Government and Medical Guidelines change. There is quite a bit of Union advice online as well but not going to forward that as yet. I'll see what comes back from my request. The Head who is insistent of these letters ironically has a wife who is pregnant and pregnancy is in the same group as diabetes. I'll be very interested to see if he attends!

***Update. Also spoke to the Union this morning,. They said my request to work from home was very reasonable in consideration from the guidelines. They said "most" employers would agree to this but if they didn't to call the Union back and the Union would request a Risk Assessment . Will see how it goes.

 

[Max68]

Interesting update -

My GP called again at 1pm and said they had a Practice Meeting this morning and my scenario was brought up. I will be receiving a Fit Note through the post that signs me off "attending" the work place for a month and then it will be revised. This of course doesn't stop me from working at home.

On top of that I spoke to a colleague also with Type 2. Her GP has advised her that she is fine to go back to work as long as social distancing is in place. So many different opinions, glad my GP is erring on the side of caution!

 

[JohnEGreen]

As far as covid 19 is concerned I am beginning to believe there are no experts just people making best guesses though for some they are informed guesses so GPs are non the wiser than most when it comes down to it.

 

[Sadjers]

Another good site for employee Rights and employer responsibility is ACAS.

https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/vulnerable-people-and-high-risk

The ACAS suggests that you should raise this issue with your employer and then they have the duty to manage the risk approximately.

 

[Max68]

@Sadjers Good site that.

Well the rota till July came through this morning and I'm not on it so they have come through to be fair. Noticed a couple of others not down also but couple I expected not to see are down but each to their own I guess on managing their own risk. On the one hand I feel a bit of a wimp but on the other hand I'd rather be an alive wimp!!

Been given more of the online work and that's absolutely fine as it's certainly not an argument about not working, just not entering the work place, especially with such ambiguity about this virus right down to WHO's new comments about only a small amount of people showing anti bodies hence immunity. Concerning stuff indeed.

 

[Max68]

Well it changes again and I knew this was coming. Got a phone call today from my Line Manager. It seems that others with underlying conditions are going in to the school since they partially opened it (one day in every four) and it seems like my GP is the only one who has certificated me to work from home. This is obviously, according to the Head "unfair" that I get paid for working from home and yet others with underlying conditions are going in and taking their chances with social distancing and PPE apparently! So the suggestion or request is that I go on Statutory Sick Pay for the foreseeable for which I believe is 28 weeks and £95.85 per week! I would not be expected to do any work from home.

I have asked if there is a possibility of maybe them creating a Temporary Part Time contract where I work from home and obviously get paid a lesser wage than those who go into school but at the same time earn more than SSP but no idea if they would agree to that. I'm on a four day contract anyway so earn 20% less than others but have up until this point been doing 5 days from home like everyone else. Everyone else from this week forward is only in school between 9.30 and 2pm one day in every four and are at all other times just working from home like me so thought it was a tad harsh as it's not like they are there 5 days a week. No mention of Furlough was mentioned so I might call back and ask about that.

So a bit of a dilemma. The decision of those to go back in has obviously created this situation as obviously if all with underlying conditions had been signed off I suspect I may not have received a call, unless of course they placed us all on SSP. Plus who is right? My GP for signing me off due to the risk factors or others GP's for not doing so. Only time and luck will tell I guess!

Not really sure I have any options really but to accept it. It's not like I can go and get another "risk free job" and I'm not sure if it's worth a game of Russian Roulette!

 

[Cdean8780]

As ridiculous as this sounds it could well push a few of us into a corner at some point. I see in the news today some idiotic Government minister whose name conveniently doesn't appear in the article, has allegedly suggested that schools could reopen after Easter and that the closure of schools could be more damaging than the virus itself. Clearly someone who doesn't have to work in one!!

I do - and as a type 2 diabetic with high blood pressure, albeit relatively well controlled with meds, I, as many of you are in this group with seemingly very little advice. Not in the top high risk group but certainly not advised to go and plant a kiss on the first person you see!!

So a dilemma, which could be applied to any line of work. If (and I would be very surprised if they did) they did ask schools to reopen after Easter where would you stand as an employee who wouldn't want to take the risk? Schools are petri dishes at the best of times and most of our students come in via taxi, more petri dishes!! I'm not in the top high risk group so how would that go down with my rights to stay away, if indeed I have any? Regarding Universal Credit I believe resigning, in normal times, meant that you didn't qualify and again I'm not sure being sacked even qualifies you to receive such benefit?

Obviously these aren't normal times and one would hope that the school would show a duty of care and certain staff would not be forced back, but what if they were? What would you do?

I have same type 2 and high blood pressure work in hospital, cleaning infected rooms.
At first I got amended duties but then that changed as it was a harder/impossible to distance from the infection and b I was placed on the worst area I my opinions non covid area, which had suspected covid patients all time.

I ended up going home self cert n got a sick note which I'm presuming will count against me. (If u show symptoms or have shielding letter you just go off no questions or detriment pay wise). God knows what im gonna do wen the note ends.

As vulnerable/high risk we should b allowed to furlough, key worker or not. My vulnerability meant I couldn't perform my own job anyway so hardly key

 

[Max68]

I have same type 2 and high blood pressure work in hospital, cleaning infected rooms.
At first I got amended duties but then that changed as it was a harder/impossible to distance from the infection and b I was placed on the worst area I my opinions non covid area, which had suspected covid patients all time.

I ended up going home self cert n got a sick note which I'm presuming will count against me. (If u show symptoms or have shielding letter you just go off no questions or detriment pay wise). God knows what im gonna do wen the note ends.

As vulnerable/high risk we should b allowed to furlough, key worker or not. My vulnerability meant I couldn't perform my own job anyway so hardly key

That's a very good point. At the school we have vulnerable children so that is why the school is even being allowed to open. Thing is if I am not comfortable with my own safety how do I do my job properly to keep the children safe? I make a grand a month and with SSP being £380 I'll be £620 down but it's just me at home I don't have dependants so for the sake of £620 and some of that eaten up with fuel to get to and fro is it worth the risk?!

Plus this decision now places another condition on the horizon. Mental health worrying about whether I should risk going back to work or trying to survive on SSP!!

 

[DCUKMod]

That's a very good point. At the school we have vulnerable children so that is why the school is even being allowed to open. Thing is if I am not comfortable with my own safety how do I do my job properly to keep the children safe? I make a grand a month and with SSP being £380 I'll be £620 down but it's just me at home I don't have dependants so for the sake of £620 and some of that eaten up with fuel to get to and fro is it worth the risk?!

Plus this decision now places another condition on the horizon. Mental health worrying about whether I should risk going back to work or trying to survive on SSP!!

Have you contacted ACAS Max68? They might well be able to advise you where the certification or whatever you have from your GP leaves you. Without doubt, they will be quite familiarised with what options are available in law.

 

[Max68]

@DCUKMod, Thanks I haven't thought of that. I will tomorrow. I have already left a message with my Union to give me a call. I think the problem is it's a basic fit note, not particularly fit for purpose with regards to a global pandemic!! Shielding letter may well have been different as I said above. Not helped of course by others who are meant to be stringently social distancing deciding to go in.

 

[zacthedog]

It is strange how bosses see things different, I am type 2 and able to work from home, my boss was talking about furloughing my staff leaving me to go back to the coal face??? I am now confused between government recommendations, my company recommendations and what my boss wants, I have no problem working as I can stay relatively safe and doctors and nurses(and others) who have diabetes are still working on the front line. It is about minimizing your risk and your safety is in your hands as it is every day, this is not going to go away so we are all going to have to find a way of working safely, gloves, masks and soap and water is my recommendation.

 

[DCUKMod]

@DCUKMod, Thanks I haven't thought of that. I will tomorrow. I have already left a message with my Union to give me a call. I think the problem is it's a basic fit note, not particularly fit for purpose with regards to a global pandemic!! Shielding letter may well have been different as I said above. Not helped of course by others who are meant to be stringently social distancing deciding to go in.

Yes, but if the letter/note you have from your GP is not actually fit for purpose, ACAS may be able to help you understand why and what options you may have - whether it be suck it up, try to ask your GP to issue different documentation (he may have thought what you were given was appropriate), ask for furlough, something else, or nothing.

Bearing in mind ACAS will not charge you for the information provided (unless I am misguided in that regard), you have absolutely nothing to lose, except for however long it takes to get through to them.