Fat loss to remission

Outlier

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1,624
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I agree with your second paragraph but not the first. I had dieted using calorie control all my adult life, and was good at it, but it was a horrible experience and I was always hungry. I stopped in the end because I entered one of those mega-stressful times life brings and just couldn't take the constant hunger as well as all the other pressures. I ate "healthy" food (I'm a nutrition geek) but of course that isn't healthy for T2 diabetics.
When I embraced keto following my diagnosis, I knew I was eating significantly more calories than when I applied calorie control. I was amazed at how the excess weight just fell off, my energy levels rose, and I felt much better all round. So, with enormous respect, I dispute that all weight loss depends on calorie deficit because of my own lived experience. And I very much doubt that I'm the only one who has found this.
 

shelley262

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4,997
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
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I agree with your second paragraph but not the first. I had dieted using calorie control all my adult life, and was good at it, but it was a horrible experience and I was always hungry. I stopped in the end because I entered one of those mega-stressful times life brings and just couldn't take the constant hunger as well as all the other pressures. I ate "healthy" food (I'm a nutrition geek) but of course that isn't healthy for T2 diabetics.
When I embraced keto following my diagnosis, I knew I was eating significantly more calories than when I applied calorie control. I was amazed at how the excess weight just fell off, my energy levels rose, and I felt much better all round. So, with enormous respect, I dispute that all weight loss depends on calorie deficit because of my own lived experience. And I very much doubt that I'm the only one who has found this.
This is exactly my experience too constant hunger when previously dieting with low fat calorie deficit and lots of exercise too. Not only did I lose my excess weight on keto with higher calorie days - from the previously forbidden fat I introduced back into my diet - without hunger and without as much exercise but I continue at the same weight give or take a couple of pounds up and down right through my seven and counting low carb years.
 

aris

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126
Type of diabetes
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Tablets (oral)
I agree with your second paragraph but not the first. I had dieted using calorie control all my adult life, and was good at it, but it was a horrible experience and I was always hungry. I stopped in the end because I entered one of those mega-stressful times life brings and just couldn't take the constant hunger as well as all the other pressures. I ate "healthy" food (I'm a nutrition geek) but of course that isn't healthy for T2 diabetics.
When I embraced keto following my diagnosis, I knew I was eating significantly more calories than when I applied calorie control. I was amazed at how the excess weight just fell off, my energy levels rose, and I felt much better all round. So, with enormous respect, I dispute that all weight loss depends on calorie deficit because of my own lived experience. And I very much doubt that I'm the only one who has found this.
How do you know you were eating more calories? Did you rigorously track over an extended period of time? If you did, where do you suspect your excess calories went? How were they utilised or disposed of by your body?

I was on a calorie deficit diet some years ago and lots lots of weight on an estimated 1000 calorie a day deficit. it did vary of course, but that is what I aimed for. I rigorously tracked on my fitness pal for over 500 days straight. I gained a bunch back when I went off it. The adherence problem.

You can absolutely lose weight using both methods - this has been tested in highly controlled conditions - on an isocaloric diet, low carb, and high carb results in the same weight loss.

Im not trying to diminish your personal anecdote - nor trying to convince you to change diet as I think a low carb diet is the better way to go - though not necessarily a high fat low carb/ketogenic one - but a higher protein lower carb one. That is a personal choice though.

I think it is incorrect to say that "calories don't count", with regard to low carb diets when in fact one should say that you "don't have to count calories ". Low carb diets are calorically self regulating.
 
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zand

Master
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So I lost weight on a fat fast consisting of 2300 cals a day for 5 days. So I assume that my daily requirement is in excess of 2300.

I do check my calories when I am doing keto, but to make sure I have at least 1200 cals (preferably 1500 +)every day.
 
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aris

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Type of diabetes
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So I lost weight on a fat fast consisting of 2300 cals a day for 5 days. So I assume that my daily requirement is in excess of 2300.

I do check my calories when I am doing keto, but to make sure I have at least 1200 cals (preferably 1500 +)every day.
How much did you lose in 5 days And how much of that was fat, and how much water?

I had my RMR tested several years ago after I lost loads of weight (over 30kg) on a calorie deficit, and it come out at 2000. So easily could have been 2300-2500 during a normal day doing normal things Including some light exercise.
 

Outlier

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Type 2
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How do you know you were eating more calories? Did you rigorously track over an extended period of time? If you did, where do you suspect your excess calories went?
As I said: I'm a nutrition geek. Half a century of rigid calorie control put me in the Gold Standard of knowing when I was eating more calories. I don't need anything more than my brain to find that. I don't know or care where the "excess" calories went as I could SEE where they didn't go, given that I lost a lot of weight. Of course people can lose weight by calorie control, but it hurts. Keto doesn't. Therefore I find it much easier. That's the control element. I don't actually need self-control at all, which means life's other slings and arrows don't affect my diet because my diet doesn't stress me.
 

aris

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As I said: I'm a nutrition geek. Half a century of rigid calorie control put me in the Gold Standard of knowing when I was eating more calories. I don't need anything more than my brain to find that. I don't know or care where the "excess" calories went as I could SEE where they didn't go, given that I lost a lot of weight. Of course people can lose weight by calorie control, but it hurts. Keto doesn't. Therefore I find it much easier. That's the control element. I don't actually need self-control at all, which means life's other slings and arrows don't affect my diet because my diet doesn't stress me.
As a "nutrition geek" one would have thought you might have a bit more intellectual curiosity about where the excess calories went.

I suspect your brain thought it was consuming more calories, but actually wasn't. That and an increase in expenditure some of which probably came from from protein digestion put you in a technical deficit.

Agreed on the control - low carb is proven to decrease ghrelin and thus hunger, plus increase satiety so you feel full faster and longer. Overall a win.
 
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aris

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If anyone reading this thread is intellectually curious to know where your fat goes when metabolised - watch this brilliant and accessible TED talk

 
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zand

Master
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As a "nutrition geek" one would have thought you might have a bit more intellectual curiosity about where the excess calories went.

I suspect your brain thought it was consuming more calories, but actually wasn't. That and an increase in expenditure some of which probably came from from protein digestion put you in a technical deficit.

Agreed on the control - low carb is proven to decrease ghrelin and thus hunger, plus increase satiety so you feel full faster and longer. Overall a win.
I suspect you are trying to twist facts to try to fit your own mistaken beliefs. I had the same experience as @Outlier as did my non diabetic husband when he follwed LCHF for a couple of months. He lost weight whilst eating more calories.

Perhaps you should rethink your ideas which are based on old science? We can't all be wrong.
 
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aris

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I suspect you are trying to twist facts to try to fit your own mistaken beliefs. I had the same experience as @Outlier as did my non diabetic husband when he follwed LCHF for a couple of months. He lost weight whilst eating more calories.

Perhaps you should rethink your ideas which are based on old science? We can't all be wrong.

Can you cite some peer reviewed studies that show where consuming more calories than you expend results in fat loss?

Your husband may or may not have been eating more calories than on other diets, but either way he was expending more than he consumed overall.
 
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zand

Master
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Can you cite some peer reviewed studies that show where consuming more calories than you expend results in fat loss?

Your husband may or may not have been eating more calories than on other diets, but either way he was expending more than he consumed overall.
No I can't. I don't need to. With @Outlier n=3 here. I doubt there have been any, there's no money in it for the food and drugs companies.

I'm not sure why you keep questioning our calorie counting abilities. Why is it so important to you to be right? You might learn something if you had a more open mind.
 

aris

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I suspect you are trying to twist facts to try to fit your own mistaken beliefs. I had the same experience as @Outlier as did my non diabetic husband when he follwed LCHF for a couple of months. He lost weight whilst eating more calories.

Perhaps you should rethink your ideas which are based on old science? We can't all be wrong.

I re-read my post and based on your response realised my post may have sounded condescending. That was not my intention and I apologise if it was perceived that way.

My intention was to disambiguate "the brain" from the person. Most people hugely misjudge portion sizes by eye. It takes a bit of practice to eyeball calorie content with plain food on a plate, let alone something more complex. You may well have the skills to do so, particularly if you cooked it yourself, but many do not. Dieters also often neglect to add snacks and condiments to their daily calorie intake. Strict calorie logging with a scale is an eye opener, but even then can be 10-15% out due to natural variation of food.
 

aris

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I'm not sure why you keep questioning our calorie counting abilities. Why is it so important to you to be right? You might learn something if you had a more open mind.
Science needs to be based on a solid foundation of truth. Anecdote and "big pharma" conspiracy theories are not a foundation for progressing science.

I'm unsure why you feel so threatened by my statements. I'm not rubbishing low carb, I follow it myself. I'm not telling anyone to stop. I'm merely stating that for fat loss, calories matter. They're just easier to take care of with low carb.

Truth in nutrition and medicine is important - which is why clinical studies are constantly challenged and peer reviewed. I've a pretty open mind - and am willing to change it if given sufficient evidence other than anecdote.
 

zand

Master
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10,794
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I'm not threatened by your statement because I know the truth. The calories in/calories out method only works when bodies work well.

I guess if I ate 3000+ calories a day, even keto calories, I may gain weight. After many years of calorie counting though, I don't have a huge appetite. But if I have 1500 calories of mixed carbs, fat and protein I gain weight. Fact. With 1500 calories of low carb food I don't gain weight. Fact.

You need to understand what it has been like for people like @Outlier and me. I had years of doctors and nurses telling me to lose weight, but the Eatwell Plate combined with calorie counting didn't work. Adding a 2 mile walk every day didn't help either. When I told the HCPs this they accused me of cheating, lying and forgetting I had snacks. I knew the truth. I was weighing food and calculating calories with the help of 3 calorie counting books. No PCs back then, no smart phones, just scales, pen, paper and calculator. A few years back my GP was training for a marathon. I regularly met him when I was about a mile from home on my 2 mile walk. He stopped telling me to get more exercise after that.

When I told my nurse that I realised drinks with artificial sweeteners actually made me gain weight long term, the nurse said with a knowing look 'that's because you think you have done well to save calories and compensate by eating more'.
Wrong, I weighed and counted every calorie.

So I struggled on for years, eating less and less and moving more. Eventually I got ill, catching every virus going and getting ever fatter, until that bout of flu in 2007 when I realised the madness of what I was doing.

I then ate as much as I wanted of good nutritious food, until I stumbled on the idea of low carbing. Around a year or so after that I found this forum...and found I wasn't the only one for whom calorie counting didn't work.

So you see, I am well used to people saying I must have cheated or counted calories wrong, it's just irritating when fellow diabetics don't believe me.

But hey when the famine happens I will be the last one standing as my metabolism is so good at running on just a little fuel.
 

ajbod

Well-Known Member
Messages
767
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Our primary problem as type 2 diabetics is Insulin resistance. You have to try to visualise what this actually means, to the CICO model.

Fats consumed are either used up as fuel, (in the absence of too many carbs), to help the absorption of essential nutrients and support the functions of cells, it also helps to regulate the blood pressure and control the Cholesterol level. The excess is supposedly converted to body fat. But many of us here, have found for us at least this simply isn’t true.

Protein for the most part, is used to manufacture, Hormones, Enzymes and Haemoglobin. It is also used to maintain and build muscles and various cells throughout the body. It is only used as fuel and converted to Glucose when there is a CALORIFIC DEFECIT. If you consume sufficient calories for your bodies needs, it doesn’t get converted and eventually stored as fat. Any excess is expelled from the body.

Carbohydrates however are converted to Glucose and used solely for fuel. This is where Insulin resistance rears it’s ugly head. Since we all have different levels of resistance it is nigh on impossible to calculate the extent of the problem regarding carbs. If we eat for the sake of argument 2000 calories a day, according to the NICE guidelines that’s about 1200 calories from carbs. But with Insulin resistance our bodies cannot use that amount. If we are capable of handling 1000 calories worth, that leaves an excess of 200 calories, and because we are not getting enough fuel from what we eat, we are effectively in calorie deficit, so Protein is converted to Glucose, which adds to the problem. So even with just the 200 calories of excess Glucose, the only place it can go, is to pee out as much as the body can manage, or convert it to fat and store it away from where it is causing a problem. If we manage to pee out half of that, that leaves 100 or so calories worth to be stored away. 100 calories of body fat is approx’ 11 grams , this equates to over 4Kg a year. And that is sticking religiously to the official guidelines.

For a person with this scenario, lowering carb intake, by 200 calories worth each day, and replacing with fats and Protein would be enough to stabilise blood sugars, and maintain weight. But as we’re all different, the reduction needed is specific to our own bodies.

Due to the Insulin resistance, our bodies answer, is to ramp up Insulin production. The immediate solution, store it away as fat, we’ll worry about that later.

So for a type 2 it all boils down to Insulin levels, with higher blood sugars, we have higher Insulin levels, this increases the fat storage rate, and reduces the stored fat use rate. In the absence of raised Insulin levels, a calorie deficit will result in weight loss. But reducing carb levels rather than fat and protein, will result in even lower levels of Insulin, less fat storage and increased fat store usage. The level we need to reduce carbs by, is individual to us all. Keto is effectively lower carb on steroids, Insulin levels are on the floor, and stored fat usage is turbo charged as a result. Inevitably we end up eating less without realising because the fat store supplements the calorie deficit seamlessly.

A reduced calorie diet, by it’s very nature, is a reduced carb diet, if you restrict your diet by 500 calories a day, that is going to be 300 calories of carbs gone. That is the driver of the weight loss. As many of us here know by removing those 300 calories of carbs from our diets, and replacing them with fats and protein, we can get the same outcome, without restricting our calories.

My weight loss came long before any diagnosis, I reached the point where I just needed to lose some weight, at my peak I was 115kg. Looking back now I was showing some diabetic symptoms, carb comas, already diagnosed with Peripheral neuropathy. Funny turns which I now know were false hypos, but the doctors couldn’t care less, as my Hba1c was just about pre diabetic.

As most “diet” food didn’t appeal to me in the slightest, I researched and found Keto. To start with everything was very strictly logged on My Fitness Pal, this was when i ditched milk in coffee, as i was shocked by the affect it had on the figures. My BMR was around 2400 cals. I initially reduced my intake by 400 calories, the weight began to fall off, to the point I relaxed the reduction. Snacked on cold sausages, hard boiled eggs with loads of Mayo, cheese, loads of lovely fatty chicken thighs. My calorie count climbed to over 2800. The weight continued to go at the same rate, eventually reaching 25Kg in 4 months, (looking back now I realise it was actually 30kg), I ended up at the weight I was when I left school, over 40 years before.

When I reached the weight I was happy with, the hard part was balancing my carb intake, so as to have no loss and no gain in weight.

So in my position carbs were the sole factor in weight loss, calories were immaterial.
 

Beating-My-Betes

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664
If we eat for the sake of argument 2000 calories a day, according to the NICE guidelines that’s about 1200 calories from carbs. But with Insulin resistance our bodies cannot use that amount. If we are capable of handling 1000 calories worth, that leaves an excess of 200 calories, and because we are not getting enough fuel from what we eat
Please could you provide some evidence for why you think people with insulin-resistance cannot properly utilise carbs, and for the calculations you've presented.
Due to the Insulin resistance, our bodies answer, is to ramp up Insulin production. The immediate solution, store it away as fat, we’ll worry about that later.
But energy needs trump any fat storage. Unless you're trying to suggest that insulin levels are raised 24/7, preventing fat-burning, then there will always be time to burn fat in response to energetic need e.g when in a caloric deficit. It might be inefficient for the body to store as fat what it'll need in pretty short order, but that's not relevant to the argument you're making

So for a type 2 it all boils down to Insulin levels, with higher blood sugars, we have higher Insulin levels, this increases the fat storage rate, and reduces the stored fat use rate.
I am currently 15 kilos lighter than I was when I joined this place, 5 years ago, and I have a high (measured) level of insulin-resistance.
According to you, I would be incapable of properly utilising the (many) carbs I eat, and my level of circulating insulin should prevent me from utilising fat stores.

So where have I been getting all my energy from, all these years?

A reduced calorie diet, by it’s very nature, is a reduced carb diet,
Not necessarily. I tend towards a manageable deficit purely by reducing the amount of fat and protein in my diet. I either eat similar amounts of carbs, or more on some days.

if you restrict your diet by 500 calories a day, that is going to be 300 calories of carbs gone. That is the driver of the weight loss.
The driver of weight/fat-loss is energy deficit

As many of us here know by removing those 300 calories of carbs from our diets, and replacing them with fats and protein, we can get the same outcome, without restricting our calories.
Objective claims require objective evidence. Please could you share your tracking records.

Energy restriction needn't be intentional for weight/fat-loss, but it does need to exist.
 

zand

Master
Messages
10,794
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Please could you provide some evidence for why you think people with insulin-resistance cannot properly utilise carbs, and for the calculations you've presented.

But energy needs trump any fat storage. Unless you're trying to suggest that insulin levels are raised 24/7, preventing fat-burning, then there will always be time to burn fat in response to energetic need e.g when in a caloric deficit. It might be inefficient for the body to store as fat what it'll need in pretty short order, but that's not relevant to the argument you're making


I am currently 15 kilos lighter than I was when I joined this place, 5 years ago, and I have a high (measured) level of insulin-resistance.
According to you, I would be incapable of properly utilising the (many) carbs I eat, and my level of circulating insulin should prevent me from utilising fat stores.

So where have I been getting all my energy from, all these years?


Not necessarily. I tend towards a manageable deficit purely by reducing the amount of fat and protein in my diet. I either eat similar amounts of carbs, or more on some days.


The driver of weight/fat-loss is energy deficit


Objective claims require objective evidence. Please could you share your tracking records.

Energy restriction needn't be intentional for weight/fat-loss, but it does need to exist.
Please could you provide some evidence for why you think people with insulin-resistance cannot properly utilise carbs, and for the calculations you've presented.

But energy needs trump any fat storage. Unless you're trying to suggest that insulin levels are raised 24/7, preventing fat-burning, then there will always be time to burn fat in response to energetic need e.g when in a caloric deficit. It might be inefficient for the body to store as fat what it'll need in pretty short order, but that's not relevant to the argument you're making


I am currently 15 kilos lighter than I was when I joined this place, 5 years ago, and I have a high (measured) level of insulin-resistance.
According to you, I would be incapable of properly utilising the (many) carbs I eat, and my level of circulating insulin should prevent me from utilising fat stores.

So where have I been getting all my energy from, all these years?


Not necessarily. I tend towards a manageable deficit purely by reducing the amount of fat and protein in my diet. I either eat similar amounts of carbs, or more on some days.


The driver of weight/fat-loss is energy deficit


Objective claims require objective evidence. Please could you share your tracking records.

Energy restriction needn't be intentional for weight/fat-loss, but it does need to exist.
So has the 15kg fat loss got you to remission? (I'm referring to the thread title).
 

ajbod

Well-Known Member
Messages
767
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
The evidence pure and simply is raised blood glucose levels, ie it's not where it's supposed to be. Without Insulin resistance it would be within the cells.