Newcastle diet starting Monday, done it once who gonna join me on my journey??

[Pipp]

Hi Pip

This, too, is a great discussion. I know we have gone over this ealier in this thread.

Problem 1 - removing the liver and pancreas fat - possible solution the ND
Problem 2 - staying below our personal fat threshold - possible solution ??????

Absolutely. Also, remaining forever vigilant, and taking action immediately there is a rise in weight and/or BG readings.
Where some former successful NDers fall is that they stop being vigilant and return to former eating patterns.

If you do what you always did you are going to get what you always got!

 

[mohanankur]

Day 3 on ND, weight down by 1 kg. I noticed today a slight improvement in blurryness in my vision today. Kind of strange. May be it's just psychological

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

HbA1c of 34 when it had previously been 70s. Also, nothing I ate caused spikes in BG. In the early days following end of my ND I sort of felt quite euphoric and believed I had beaten diabetes. For me ' reversed' meant I did not have diabetes, but in reality what I did not have was diabetes BG. A subtle difference. If one does not have diabetes that means cured. If one does not have diabetes BG that means controlled.

It is now getting on for four years since I first did ND. In the interim period I have been more immobile than usual (I had spinal injury over 20 years ago that restricts my mobility). I have needed major surgery on 2 occasions that has left me dependent on others for catering. Also, I confess to being less disciplined about food intake than I should so have regained some weight lost. It is apparent that I could be getting close to my personal fat threshold again, as last HbA1c was 41. Teetering on the brink of pre-diabetic levels. BG average readings have crept up from around 4.8 to around 5.9. If I don't sort this I could be in trouble.

What has brought me to this? I believe it has been portion size. Although I have generally stayed low carb I have had an odd beer and sandwich. No spike in BG with them. I have had a lot of cheese, nuts and cream. Some people seem to be able to do that. I can't. So weight gain has been a problem for me. Still 35kg less than at my heaviest, so all is not lost (or perhaps gained) but essential that I shed some of the gained weight.

My reason for telling this? I do not want anyone to think ND, as brilliant as it is for some of us, is a quick fix cure. It is another 'tool' in the box to deal with T2 for some of us, but as with all repairs once initial problem is fixed future maintenence is essential to keep the machine working.

So @Pipp

Firstly thank you for sharing so much information. I am quietly becoming somewhat alarmed as I 've now lost 63lbs and still coming up with diabetic numbers although my BMI is currently 23. There is clearly no denying that this T2DM is a tricky disease!

If its not too personal a question what is your current BMI? I ask this question as one thing has always puzzled me about ND/NP that being that bariatric obese post surgery patients lose "Diabetic" symptoms with minmal weight loss. Yet the same people can have BMI 's that are extremely elevated? So I wonder out loud if one would be best served by doing only the ND/NP program, once diagnosed, and that it is a combination of the agressiveness of the ND / NP program that kicks T2DM into touch? I sense had I at my BMI weight of 27 gone ND I'd now have a BMI of 24 and be T2DM symptom free. I started with a BMI of 30.7

During the ND/ NP program how much exercise were you getting whilst on 800 calories/day ? How much exercise are you doing day to day currently to maintain your lifestyle?

Sorry if this post is too long trying to help other folks with T2DM

Day 2 of ND NP. Weight down 1lb now down from start weight (cumulatively 63lbs from worst levels 62lbs of conventional weightloss & exercise). FBG 5.7 / 103mg/dl

 

[Arab Horse]

@Steve50 wrote "This is one aspect of the NP that can not be as simple as 15%. I believe the right figure is Personal %. Our underweight Diabetes may only be able to drop a comparatively small % whereas the 'fuller figure' Diabetes may need to drop a lot more."

I think that would seem to make sense, Steve. I went from around 124lbs to around 100lbs when I went low carb (probably didn't really high fat) so I dropped over 15% of my body weight but the only difference it made to me was if I kept to virtually no carbs so not sure if it really had any effect on me apart from the drop in BS from my diet.

I sort of started the ND today. I had my usual omelette for breakfast and then went to a horse show so didn't eat until 5.00pm when I had a diet shake in a small tub of yoghurt. I will start the diet properly tomorrow but hopefully with a head start from today.

 

[Steve50]

HI AH

Good luck with it. Let us know how you get on.

 

[Pipp]

So @Pipp

Firstly thank you for sharing so much information. I am quietly becoming somewhat alarmed as I 've now lost 63lbs and still coming up with diabetic numbers although my BMI is currently 23. There is clearly no denying that this T2DM is a tricky disease!

If its not too personal a question what is your current BMI? I ask this question as one thing has always puzzled me about ND/NP that being that bariatric obese post surgery patients lose "Diabetic" symptoms with minmal weight loss. Yet the same people can have BMI 's that are extremely elevated? So I wonder out loud if one would be best served by doing only the ND/NP program, once diagnosed, and that it is a combination of the agressiveness of the ND / NP program that kicks T2DM into touch? I sense had I at my BMI weight of 27 gone ND I'd now have a BMI of 24 and be T2DM symptom free. I started with a BMI of 30.7

During the ND/ NP program how much exercise were you getting whilst on 800 calories/day ? How much exercise are you doing day to day currently to maintain your lifestyle?

Sorry if this post is too long trying to help other folks with T2DM

Day 2 of ND NP. Weight down 1lb now down from start weight (cumulatively 63lbs from worst levels 62lbs of conventional weightloss & exercise). FBG 5.7 / 103mg/dl

Bmi is kind of personal. Probably because I am still ashamed that I allowed myself to get like that. Suffice to say that I am no longer morbidly obese, but still have a way to go before I am overweight rather than obese. I don't think it is as simple as just doing ND on diagnosis. For me, my BG emulated that of someone who had bariatric surgery, in that it fell into non-diabetes range within days. That was my intention, to show that for me surgey was not necessary. However, bear in mind that bariatric surgery is generally only offered to those with extreme obesity. So the theory that it works for all doesn't hold. Perhaps it won'twork as well for those with a start point weight less than extremely obese?

Whilst I was on ND in 2011, I was able to undertake 5 intense hour long aqua exercise classes a week and 3 x 1 hour swim sessions. Since then I have been less active, due to surgery, and other impairments. Have periods when I am unable to exercise for weeks at a time, also had around 18 months totally immobile and dependent on others for care. So currently in a position where I am not able to exercise as much as I would choose, and have been concerned about reaching personal fat threshold. Time for me to re-evaluate. Probably need to look at portion size because I am adhering to low carb.

 

[AndBreathe]

Bmi is kind of personal. Probably because I am still ashamed that I allowed myself to get like that. Suffice to say that I am no longer morbidly obese, but still have a way to go before I am overweight rather than obese. I don't think it is as simple as just doing ND on diagnosis. For me, my BG emulated that of someone who had bariatric surgery, in that it fell into non-diabetes range within days. That was my intention, to show that for me surgey was not necessary. However, bear in mind that bariatric surgery is generally only offered to those with extreme obesity. So the theory that it works for all doesn't hold. Perhaps it won'twork as well for those with a start point weight less than extremely obese?

Whilst I was on ND in 2011, I was able to undertake 5 intense hour long aqua exercise classes a week and 3 x 1 hour swim sessions. Since then I have been less active, due to surgery, and other impairments. Have periods when I am unable to exercise for weeks at a time, also had around 18 months totally immobile and dependent on others for care. So currently in a position where I am not able to exercise as much as I would choose, and have been concerned about reaching personal fat threshold. Time for me to re-evaluate. Probably need to look at portion size because I am adhering to low carb.

Richard Doughty had a very modest BMI when he did the ND; which is probably why he didn't have to do it for very long.

As I recall, and I haven't validated my memory, Professor Taylor's subjects had something like an 80% success rate, so clearly it doesn't work for everyone, but at 80%, and the sooner after diagnosis the better, it is probably something many newly diagnosed diabetics should consider. That isn't to say all newly diagnosed T2s should do this, as it's not for everyone, in terms of lifestyle, social and other medical considerations, but for otherwise healthy, flexible patients, I'd like to have known about it at the oint of diagnosis.

 

[Pipp]

Richard Doughty had a very modest BMI when he did the ND; which is probably why he didn't have to do it for very long.

As I recall, and I haven't validated my memory, Professor Taylor's subjects had something like an 80% success rate, so clearly it doesn't work for everyone, but at 80%, and the sooner after diagnosis the better, it is probably something many newly diagnosed diabetics should consider. That isn't to say all newly diagnosed T2s should do this, as it's not for everyone, in terms of lifestyle, social and other medical considerations, but for otherwise healthy, flexible patients, I'd like to have known about it at the oint of diagnosis.

Agree with all this. I was 6 years T2 before I had the chance. 80% has to be good odds for newly diagnosed. A shame some GPs still won't get onto it. Though Si do appreciate they have to wait for full evaluation of the study.

 

[AndBreathe]

Agree with all this. I was 6 years T2 before I had the chance. 80% has to be good odds for newly diagnosed. A shame some GPs still won't get onto it. Though Si do appreciate they have to wait for full evaluation of the study.

I can wholeheartedly understand they can't, yet, recommend it wholesale, but for those who are clearly hell-bent on reading the internet to a standstill, it would just be so good to have access to a range of reading/educational sites or pages to inform initial action plans. Many people, as we see here, are willing to undertake their own risk analysis and make informed choices, at their own risk.

I appreciate you understand that; just emptying my mind.

 

[Steve50]

The NP has to be a personal choice but I don't think anyone is suggesting you should not talk to your Dr or DN first. Maybe not for support - but if there are good reasons you should not do it you need to know about it. They may not agree with it. Fine. But they should be able to tell you your personal risk given your health.

Again stating the bleeding obvious but I feel it needs to be said.

 

[RobOwen]

If GP's would only recommend that newly diagnosed & even established T2's check this forum out rather than the rather conservative DUK it might help more of us.

 

[Steve50]

Not long to go now Rob

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Bmi is kind of personal. Probably because I am still ashamed that I allowed myself to get like that. Suffice to say that I am no longer morbidly obese, but still have a way to go before I am overweight rather than obese. I don't think it is as simple as just doing ND on diagnosis. For me, my BG emulated that of someone who had bariatric surgery, in that it fell into non-diabetes range within days. That was my intention, to show that for me surgey was not necessary. However, bear in mind that bariatric surgery is generally only offered to those with extreme obesity. So the theory that it works for all doesn't hold. Perhaps it won't work as well for those with a start point weight less than extremely obese?

Whilst I was on ND in 2011, I was able to undertake 5 intense hour long aqua exercise classes a week and 3 x 1 hour swim sessions. Since then I have been less active, due to surgery, and other impairments. Have periods when I am unable to exercise for weeks at a time, also had around 18 months totally immobile and dependent on others for care. So currently in a position where I am not able to exercise as much as I would choose, and have been concerned about reaching personal fat threshold. Time for me to re-evaluate. Probably need to look at portion size because I am adhering to low carb.

Thanks @Pipp for the input. "Perhaps it won't work as well for those with a start point weight less than extremely obese?" makes sense, I just hope I've not screwed my chances up as I'm now only starting ND / NP where my BMI is 23.1 or so. The nugget of knowledge I've gathered from your text above is that one can become un-diabetic and yet still have a large BMI 30+ number. So maybe we should be challenging Prof. Taylor to maybe modify his thoughts that its the aggressive-ness of ND & not exactly the entire weight loss that is helping patients?

 

[Pipp]

Thanks @Pipp for the input. "Perhaps it won't work as well for those with a start point weight less than extremely obese?" makes sense, I just hope I've not screwed my chances up as I'm now only starting ND / NP where my BMI is 23.1 or so. The nugget of knowledge I've gathered from your text above is that one can become un-diabetic and yet still have a large BMI 30+ number. So maybe we should be challenging Prof. Taylor to maybe modify his thoughts that its the aggressive-ness of ND & not exactly the entire weight loss that is helping patients?

There are just far too many variables for it to be so simple. The assuption that very fat people have been eating junk foods for example. Some will have. others, like me will have been following the 'healthy' recommendations of low fat, high (healthy) carbs. Interestingly, I had fed my family the same diet for years. They remained slim and healthy. We had always been into sport and exercise. That stopped for me when I was disabled by an accident. So another variable, how active one is has an effect. Plus genetics. I come from a long paternal line of diabetics. Then there is environment, physical and emotional stress, etc etc. My point being that although there are some common features there are a variety of factors in determining cause, so likely to be variety of reasons as to why some have better results from ND than others.

I prefer to leave Prof Taylor and his team to reach their own conclusions following controlled experiments. However, I see no harm in anyone sending them anecdotal evidence from their personal experiences to aid in study designs. It could be some time before any definitive answers are found. In the meantime, it would help if motivated people did have access to information on various methods of diabetes control, even those in trial stages, in order to make informed choices. Sadly, many people with T2 that I have encountered seem content to hand responsibility for their own well being to the HCPs, who in my opinion, are following an outdated, misinformed protocol.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

There are just far too many variables for it to be so simple. The assuption that very fat people have been eating junk foods for example. Some will have. others, like me will have been following the 'healthy' recommendations of low fat, high (healthy) carbs. Interestingly, I had fed my family the same diet for years. They remained slim and healthy. We had always been into sport and exercise. That stopped for me when I was disabled by an accident. So another variable, how active one is has an effect. Plus genetics. I come from a long paternal line of diabetics. Then there is environment, physical and emotional stress, etc etc. My point being that although there are some common features there are a variety of factors in determining cause, so likely to be variety of reasons as to why some have better results from ND than others.

I prefer to leave Prof Taylor and his team to reach their own conclusions following controlled experiments. However, I see no harm in anyone sending them anecdotal evidence from their personal experiences to aid in study designs. It could be some time before any definitive answers are found. In the meantime, it would help if motivated people did have access to information on various methods of diabetes control, even those in trial stages, in order to make informed choices. Sadly, many people with T2 that I have encountered seem content to hand responsibility for their own well being to the HCPs, who in my opinion, are following an outdated, misinformed protocol.

@Pipp

Alas your point = "Sadly, many people with T2 that I have encountered seem content to hand responsibility for their own well being to the HCPs, who in my opinion, are following an outdated, misinformed protocol." is too true.

 

[andcol]

I read a paper a few years back and there is something special about fasting. When your cells have plenty of energy they replace themselves via replication. If they have a faulty gene they replicate the fault.

When you cells are depleted of energy and become damaged they go into a repair state when the body will do everything it can to fix any damage and not replicate as it is too expensive and therefore will fix the fault.

I also saw a TV programme about some South American Tribe the was cut off from the world that chain smoke every day from children but they never get cancers! However, they do fast for long periods of time throughout the year.

This repair/replace mechanism will definitely kick in when you are on ND. I raise this because (postulation) the ND causing cell repair and not replace may have an impact on the cells of the pancreas and liver and the causing them to become "switched back on" instead of just replicating them in the "off" state (ie broken).

 

[AndBreathe]

I read a paper a few years back and there is something special about fasting. When your cells have plenty of energy they replace themselves via replication. If they have a faulty gene they replicate the fault.

When you cells are depleted of energy and become damaged they go into a repair state when the body will do everything it can to fix any damage and not replicate as it is too expensive and therefore will fix the fault.

I also saw a TV programme about some South American Tribe the was cut off from the world that chain smoke every day from children but they never get cancers! However, they do fast for long periods of time throughout the year.

This repair/replace mechanism will definitely kick in when you are on ND. I raise this because (postulation) the ND causing cell repair and not replace may have an impact on the cells of the pancreas and liver and the causing them to become "switched back on" instead of just replicating them in the "off" state (ie broken).

I can buy that logic.

 

[Wildrover]

For my two penny worth, there's a load of sense and knowledge in these number of threads, with @Pipp, @ Steve50, @AB, @Rob, @LBB, and considering Prof Taylor's original study was 'knocked' because of the low number of participants involved, There's surely a lot of knowledge here, I like @AB's 909 Post, This thread is excellent and will keep going on and on (I hope) BUT maybe it's time to start a new thread totally devoted to the ND plan, where peeps who have done the ND can post ALL their experiences and how they coped ( ie their history) So that anybody who has been recently diagnosed T2 can be pointed to, and as a base of knowledge for them to decide if they wish to do the ND, also this new thread might be helpful for Prof Taylor's further research (if he was also informed of its presence) . There's been a lot of people who have done the ND, people like @Pipp who have done it 4 years ago, my god, I only heard of it 4 months ago , Anyway, ramble over, just a thought, and sorry @Steve50 if I didn't mention you in this rant (for your great input) just that I am doing this on an iPad and can't see the top of my post

 

[Wildrover]

Oops, I see that I did mention you Steve

 

[Steve50]

If this thread is to be used in any scientific way, it will need to be set up properly.

Firstly we would need to decide if it is 'theory building' or 'theory testing'. It could be either. To theory build, we would consider a question such as 'How can a person with T2 use diet to bring about remission?' If we go the theory testing way it would be perhaps 'Does the NP (Prof Taylor) work for a self selected sample of people with T2?'. This would give us our Method.

To do this in any controlled quantitative way would take quite a bit of structure, resource and specific expertise. However, we could use 'grounded theory' and make this a qualitative piece of research. We could possibly use this thread to collect up our data - and then use a conceptual framework that would provide a structured analysis and a legitimate scientific output.

Just saying!