A low I hadn't noticed before

[IanBish]

But do keep an eye on it.
Maybe do a little experiment, to see what other carbs do to your BG levels?

Thanks, I will do. I may try a pasta bolognese to see if that has a similar effect. I haven't had that for a while.

 

[Chris24Main]

Again... generally speaking.. it's the low blood glucose level that triggers your pancreas to stop producing insulin..

A glucose spike will usually end lower in blood glucose than when you started (for someone with a functioning pancreas of course).
Similarly with insulin.. your insulin level wii be higher at the end than when you start.

What you are really showing is the basic reasoning for very low carb in the first place.. without the (in this case the starch) carbs, your body need only make much smaller hormonal adjustments to deal with the protein and fat, and so your insulin resistance will drop.

At least that's my interpretation of it. If it were me, I'd want to know what happens if you swap the bread for scrambled eggs.

This is a pretty close match to your plots...

 

[Lamont D]

What I was told by my endocrinologist, as the reason for my BG levels going into low hypo levels is because of the excess insulin over produced by the high abnormal spikes, called an insulin overshoot.
This swamps the safety net of a response by glucogenisis from the liver to arrest the crash.
But, that is some metabolic conditions but there are others were there is not sufficient insulin produced and the pancreas takes longer to produce sufficient insulin to bring the BG levels down to pre meal levels.
Then there is first phase response, then second phase, which will be different to different people.
It is not straight forward or one source or one cause and effect from how our body responds to our intolerance to the glucose derived from carbs and sugars.

Hope this clears the total minefield of diversity within the T2 umbrella.

 

[IanBish]

@Chris24Main I don't normally eat breakfast, but in the interests of science I just had some scrambled eggs (I was a bit hungry) and will post back in a few hours.

@Lamont D That's an interesting point about the insulin overshoot. Hopefully that won't happen with scrambled eggs.

 

[IanBish]

Well, I had three scrambled eggs shortly after 9am, and I did go a bit low afterwards. I'm not sure what this means, if anything.

 

[MrsA2]

Well, I had three scrambled eggs shortly after 9am, and I did go a bit low afterwards. I'm not sure what this means, if anything.

View attachment 70269

That's not low! That's enviously level!

 

[IanBish]

That's not low! That's enviously level!

It was 3.9 around 11am! I didn't eat late yesterday, so that's probably why it's so level. Although in the glucose reports in the LibreView app it says:

 

[MrsA2]

Sorry , perhaps I should have said that's not a steep drop.
It is level, whether you think that's too low overall is up to you.
Yes some medications may affect levels and you could discuss this with your doctor.

 

[Lamont D]

Well, I had three scrambled eggs shortly after 9am, and I did go a bit low afterwards. I'm not sure what this means, if anything.

View attachment 70269

That graph is brilliant., That is what you would expect and want.
You will not have any issues if it stays like that.
I'm so jealous! Ha!

 

[Rachox]

My LibreView says the same, but I don’t worry about it. Though that’s probably because I’ve never looked through the LibreView stuff in that much detail, until you posted your screen shot above!

 

[Chris24Main]

Yep - @IanBish - don't know how to say it any differently - this is what you want - that's a near perfect trace. If your blood glucose really is low (bearing in mind previous comments about measurement errors in CGMs) - your liver will simply produce more, out of pretty much anything. With the clear exception of RH (which @Lamont D knows all about) - absent medication, low blood glucose is not in itself something to worry about with a functioning pancreas.

I've been trying not to say this, cause I can't really point to anything simple that backs it up, but my feeling is that when we think about what a glucose spike is.. we think like a river flooding ... or some other thing that will naturally return to .. "normal"

But - we just don't have any system for controlling glucose. It can't return to normal because there is only "too high - produce insulin" and "too low - produce glucagon". There are multiple really complex mechanisms for controlling and storing fat, but for glucose, the control mechanism is mainly about the liver producing glucose when it's needed. From an evolutionary perspective, the body expects to be low most of the time, because we have all these capabilities for pulling in ..stuff... and making glucose from it to use as short term energy. We're not really set up for too much glucose too often.

Excess glucose is more like the equivalent of that scene in Monsters Inc - all the main characters suddenly running around shouting "put that thing back where it came from or so help me!"

There are other players that will effect the performance, but if you do nothing additional, your body requires the blood glucose level to go down (under insulin) enough for the pancreas to flip. It kind of can't be any other way... That's what insulin overshoot is.. though the amount is an indicator of insulin resistance (though I don't want to go there)

Keeping your glucose trace like that means that you are making life easy for your pancreas, and allowing all your hormones to balance. By definition, there is less inflammation, less oxidative stress.. and all the other terms that we often hear, but in the negative.

Overall, you should be really happy with this - it's an excellent result..

 

[IanBish]

That graph is brilliant., That is what you would expect and want.

It's not always that flat (see below).

My LibreView says the same, but I don’t worry about it. Though that’s probably because I’ve never looked through the LibreView stuff in that much detail, until you posted your screen shot above!

I only found about it last week. I was a bit worried about RH, but the replies above have allayed those to some extent.

Yep - @IanBish - don't know how to say it any differently - this is what you want - that's a near perfect trace.

Overall, you should be really happy with this - it's an excellent result..

Thank you. Although I really didn't do anything.

It was my birthday today, and we arranged to go for a Sunday roast. However, they had run out of roasts when we got there. Being really hungry, they gave us some (leftover, I presume) stuffing balls with gravy to eat while we decided what to eat. Those spiked me to 10.1. Everyone decided they wanted cod and chips. So I went along with that. They weren't too bad, in terms of blood glucose. Although I didn't pay for it, I paid for it later by feeling bloated and feeling a bit yucky.

I'm posting an extract of my CGM graph to show @MrsA2 that I'm not always that level (!) I went low after the carbs had been eliminated.

 

[lovinglife]

I’ve never used a CGM but that’s the type of reaction I would have (and have had) to fish & chips, when I’ve tested with finger pricks, your body goes crazy throwing out loads of insulin, you’re on a roller coaster and the only way to get off is to stop the carb party. It’s why I went keto - if I don’t have the carbs I don’t have the ups and downs or the cravings that carbs create. A treat on your birthday isn’t a crime and should be enjoyed, but it can lead us onto a rocky road, which I’m also guilty of in the past

That’s my none scientific take on it as you know I’ve said in the past I don’t do scientific but I know what carbs do to me and I try to avoid them as much as possible

 

[IanBish]

I’ve never used a CGM but that’s the type of reaction I would have (and have had) to fish & chips, when I’ve tested with finger pricks, your body goes crazy throwing out loads of insulin, you’re on a roller coaster and the only way to get off is to stop the carb party. It’s why I went keto - if I don’t have the carbs I don’t have the ups and downs or the cravings that carbs create. A treat on your birthday isn’t a crime and should be enjoyed, but it can lead us onto a rocky road, which I’m also guilty of in the past

That’s my none scientific take on it as you know I’ve said in the past I don’t do scientific but I know what carbs do to me and I try to avoid them as much as possible

The fish & chips weren't too bad, it was the stuffing balls (which weren't all that nice) which caused the biggest (first) spike. I would have preferred a nice, lowish carb meal, but that wasn't available. I won't have any cravings because of this, and I too know what carbs can do, and will continue to limit them. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Lamont D]

It's not always that flat (see below).

I only found about it last week. I was a bit worried about RH, but the replies above have allayed those to some extent.

Thank you. Although I really didn't do anything.

It was my birthday today, and we arranged to go for a Sunday roast. However, they had run out of roasts when we got there. Being really hungry, they gave us some (leftover, I presume) stuffing balls with gravy to eat while we decided what to eat. Those spiked me to 10.1. Everyone decided they wanted cod and chips. So I went along with that. They weren't too bad, in terms of blood glucose. Although I didn't pay for it, I paid for it later by feeling bloated and feeling a bit yucky.

I'm posting an extract of my CGM graph to show @MrsA2 that I'm not always that level (!) I went low after the carbs had been eliminated.

View attachment 70276

My first thought is, that it took over four hours (maybe more) to return to pre meal reading
Can you please let us know when you stopped eating?
The spike is high but because of the starch in the chips and batter(?) of the fish.
Not unexpected at all the high spike.
Did you have anything at 6pm?
Did you drink?
The second smaller spike is probably a delayed effect of second phase response hence the questions about eating. It seems the first phase was insufficient to prevent the high spike. Common in T2.
That is why the second spike happened, until the insulin brought it on its downward trend again.
I'm not sure if is too much insulin, but if you do have insulin resistance, the excessive insulin will bring it lower than normal levels.
Did you take action at the alarm of the hypo reading?
It does seem that it was rising at the end of the graph.

Just to mention if I had eaten what you did, my spike would have been quicker and higher.
My second phase and insulin response, would have been quicker as well.
In total about 3-3.and a half hours later.
My RH is different to your graph.
Hope this helps.

 

[IanBish]

The spike is high but because of the starch in the chips and batter(?) of the fish.

Did you drink?

That is why the second spike happened, until the insulin brought it on its downward trend again.
I'm not sure if is too much insulin, but if you do have insulin resistance, the excessive insulin will bring it lower than normal levels.

Did you take action at the alarm of the hypo reading?

My RH is different to your graph.
Hope this helps.

I didn't plan to eat that - but needs must, sometimes.

There were a couple of beers involved, yes.

I think I'm still insulin-resistant. I still don't properly understand the insulin response, though I get that insulin needs to rise higher (and for longer) to lower the glucose. But I still don't quite understand the second phase response.

I don't have alarms set up.

Thanks for the info.

 

[IanBish]

My first thought is, that it took over four hours (maybe more) to return to pre meal reading
Can you please let us know when you stopped eating?

The time between eating the stuffing balls and the fish & chips were probably two hours. There was a pub involved between the two. I stopped eating at around 5:45pm. Although I did have some wine afterwards. Sorry I can't be more specific.

 

[Chris24Main]

But I still don't quite understand the second phase response.

First response - high blood glucose triggers insulin production.
How much insulin is produced and how effectively it reduces blood glucose depends on insulin resistance.

Second response - low blood glucose triggers pancreas to stop producing insulin and produce glucagon
This causes the liver to produce more glucose

The reason for the overshoot is that there is no way for the body to "know" that you are getting close to the "normal".
Imagine trying to steer a car blindfold down a motorway middle lane, with the passenger only able to tell you when you are in the wrong lane.
To really torture the metaphor, going really low carb - high fat (thus enabling the control systems for controlling energy based on fat management with the relief valve of Ketones) would be like doing the same thing, but switching on Lane Assist. You stay in your lane, and your passenger never has to shout.

I suspect that you would find that the stuffing was full of starch, by the way. I remember a similar incident with a chicken sausage that turned out to be mainly pea starch. That was a shocking eye-opener, and I felt shaky and sick, with something I used to happily wolf down.

 

[IanBish]

Thanks for the explanation, @Chris24Main. Yes, the stuffing balls were all carbs, with a few herbs.