A REAL Cure for Diabetes

[Yorksman]

Yorksman - it is interesting that you linked to Professor Taylor, because that was one of the first pieces of information I found on the internet following the diagnoses.

Thanks for your kind words but I didn't know anything when I joined this forum. The only thing I knew was that I had to stop eating buns, biscuits and boiled sweets. Most of the rest was a surprise. What a forum like this does is to point you is the right direction.

Some questions are interesting even if no one provides an answer. If it causes you to think, "I hadn't thought of that but now that you mention it, why does that happen?", you can at least start googling stuff up. Not knowing combined with curiosity is the first step in learning. Medical researchers still have this curiosity. Many GPs seem to have lost their enquiring minds. My previous GP was excellent. He saved my life. He was a salaried GP whereas my current one is a with profits partnership GP. He's not heartless or money grabbing, but he's definitely lost sight of what the job is all about.

 

[Yorksman]

I suggested nearly two weeks ago that it might be interesting to others to hear from peoples' experience of the ND and have not heard anything. That may be, of course, because everyone ignores everything I blog.

Steady on Gezza, Julie only just joined a few weeks ago. People can't get around everything.

Taylor is now saying that a fast diet is not the important thing but one that both produces substantial weight loss and one that can maintain the weight loss in the future is best. He writes:

"I would not recommend a very low calorie diet initially for most people with type 2 diabetes. Very strict diets may be considered for particular purposes, but a steady, patient, sustained approach to restriction of food intake will be best for most people"

The essential point is that substantial weight loss must be achieved. The time course of weight loss is much less important.

This, Taylor adds, is only applicable to the most common form of Type 2 diabetes. It won't work for others.

 

[julie54]

Yorksman - well I have just got in from the first week of the XPert programme course which I was put on. I am not sure yet whether I will be going back. I found it so sad that the other people there were so lost and confused with lack of information since their diagnosis, and although I have no doubt that the course content will help them to at least understand their condition, I am not sure whether the advice given will empower them. For example, the number of times that the course trainers reiterated that the condition is progressive must leave them feeling that there is no hope! The dietary advice is the standard NHS 'eat well' plate, which of course may be the right way for some, it is not the only way. No mention of low carbohydrate as an alternative. I think I might find myself disagreeing with some of the content. Having said that, the information on blood glucose and how it affects other things like blood pressure/cholesterol was informative, albeit maybe scary for some. I don't know yet, my jury is out on whether to go again next week. I probably will, but may have to just keep my mouth zipped!! One of the trainers did mention the Newcastle Diet, but had her information wrong in that she quoted it as a 12 week, 600 calorie a day diet, and then said that whilst some of the participants in the study initially reduced their blood glucose levels, that they all have since returned to diabetic conditions. Now I can't find that in any of the literature that I have seen in terms of follow-up. The other thing that concerned me was that this particular trainer - although quite young - was very overweight herself, which worried me especially as she said that her father had been a type 2 diabetic for 33 years!! Hmmmmmm!!!

Oh - and thank you for defending me on the previous post!! I agree that weight loss is the important factor and not the speed at which it is achieved.

 

[Anonymous]

I suggested nearly two weeks ago that it might be interesting to others to hear from peoples' experience of the ND and have not heard anything. That may be, of course, because everyone ignores everything I blog.

Steady on Gezza, Julie only just joined a few weeks ago. People can't get around everything.

Taylor is now saying that a fast diet is not the important thing but one that both produces substantial weight loss and one that can maintain the weight loss in the future is best. He writes:

"I would not recommend a very low calorie diet initially for most people with type 2 diabetes. Very strict diets may be considered for particular purposes, but a steady, patient, sustained approach to restriction of food intake will be best for most people"

The essential point is that substantial weight loss must be achieved. The time course of weight loss is much less important.

This, Taylor adds, is only applicable to the most common form of Type 2 diabetes. It won't work for others.

Fair comment if you are going to cherry pick comments from a blog to make a point. As you can see, I wanted to know what stopped the OP from going back on the ND. Here's the rest of it ...

Why did you not complete the ND diet after your birthday and holiday? I wouldn't have thought that those 5 days would have undone everything you had achieved. What do you think of the ND diet looking back?

Please do not misquote me again. Read blogs carefully ... you must remember our previous conversations.

 

[lrw60]

. For example, the number of times that the course trainers reiterated that the condition is progressive must leave them feeling that there is no hope! The dietary advice is the standard NHS 'eat well' plate, which of course may be the right way for some, it is not the only way.

Hi Julie54,
I would like to attend the course just to say to them that I too was told when diagnosed that it was a progressive non-reversable condition. I will let others debate whether I have reversed my condition or not. The fact is that before I lost weight I was a type2 on several meds per day. After losing weight I have no meds for diabetes. I even asked my diabetes nurse at the time if that meant I should surrender my right to free meds for my (much, much better) blood presure. After consultation with the doctor and I believe outside consultation, It was decided that as I was no longer diabetic, I couldn't have free meds. Fair enough. I have to admit that my diet wasn't necessarily low-carb. It was lower carb but also lower fat. After months of trawling through all areas of this fantastic site I would have to side with the low-carbers. How low is for the individual to discover. Before the diet as a type2 I reckon I was eating 350g of carb per day, during the diet about 250, now about 150, sometimes lower, some days much higher. My last readings should be under this post. Good luck with keeping it zipped. Unfortunately I have one heck of a big gob that I enjoy using against those who try to tell me what is best for me when they don't know themselves. Please tell others on the course about me, and also tell them that there are many on this forum who have done the same thing. And many, many more who are improving their life following the advice found here.
Oooo, I could get THAT angry!
Lee.

 

[julie54]

Thanks for that Lee!! Maybe I should continue with the course - not least to keep the spirits up of the other attendees to offset the negative messages that they are getting!! And to give them some positive reinforcement from messages like yours!! But yet - keeping my gob shut is going to be a trial in itself!!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

. For example, the number of times that the course trainers reiterated that the condition is progressive must leave them feeling that there is no hope! The dietary advice is the standard NHS 'eat well' plate, which of course may be the right way for some, it is not the only way.

Hi Julie54,
I would like to attend the course just to say to them that I too was told when diagnosed that it was a progressive non-reversable condition. I will let others debate whether I have reversed my condition or not. The fact is that before I lost weight I was a type2 on several meds per day. After losing weight I have no meds for diabetes. I even asked my diabetes nurse at the time if that meant I should surrender my right to free meds for my (much, much better) blood presure. After consultation with the doctor and I believe outside consultation, It was decided that as I was no longer diabetic, I couldn't have free meds. Fair enough. I have to admit that my diet wasn't necessarily low-carb. It was lower carb but also lower fat. After months of trawling through all areas of this fantastic site I would have to side with the low-carbers. How low is for the individual to discover. Before the diet as a type2 I reckon I was eating 350g of carb per day, during the diet about 250, now about 150, sometimes lower, some days much higher. My last readings should be under this post. Good luck with keeping it zipped. Unfortunately I have one heck of a big gob that I enjoy using against those who try to tell me what is best for me when they don't know themselves. Please tell others on the course about me, and also tell them that there are many on this forum who have done the same thing. And many, many more who are improving their life following the advice found here.
Oooo, I could get THAT angry!
Lee.

Glad you are doing so well. My first big mistake when I joined the site a few months back was to say I had reduced my carbs from 350g to 250g per day and claiming that, for me, this was low-carbing (to me 100g per day seemed quite a lot). My second biggest mistake was when I announced that I was 'diabetes resolved'. I really do hope that your 'journey' on this site runs smoother than mine. I have just spent a couple of weeks on a personal study of the effects of carbs, fats & proteins on my bGs, but I daren't publish them as I know what will happen. If you are interested, send me a PM.

 

[Yorksman]

Please do not misquote me again. Read blogs carefully ... you must remember our previous conversations.

Once again you appear to misinterpret my intention. I was saying steady on Gezza because you appeared rather peeved that people didn't read your posts. I even quoted what the sentances that you wrote to which I referred were in order that there would be no misunderstanding:

I suggested nearly two weeks ago that it might be interesting to others to hear from peoples' experience of the ND and have not heard anything. That may be, of course, because everyone ignores everything I blog.

People ignoring your posts was the subject and I was just pointing out that not everyone ignores what you post nor do others necessarily do it deliberately.

 

[Yorksman]

I found it so sad that the other people there were so lost and confused with lack of information since their diagnosis, and although I have no doubt that the course content will help them to at least understand their condition, I am not sure whether the advice given will empower them.

It was the same on the Desmond course that I attended. One bloke in his mid 80s worried about his feet wondering if he would be able to walk up the steep hill to his house in future, another bloke with anxiety problems getting even more anxious about what he should be eating. One young asian lad was completely paranoid and in the 'it's inevitable, I'm going to become blind, crippled and then die' camp and another older asian bloke in his mid 70's who was slim and appeared fit and who was very jolly and who had a positive attitude. One young lady was simply silent the whole day. I think she was scared. Another asian bloke just wanted to talk about Polynesians eating too much suckling pig, one woman saying that she was too fat and another saying she couldn't get her meter to work.

There were two young women, a dietician and a podiatrist trying to knit some sort of meaningful presentation together for this range of experiences and emotions. I did learn something about different types of fibre and different types of fat but it was a relatively long day just for that. I thought they had been given a thankless task so someone could say that they had implemented positive programmes to make diabetics aware of their lifestyle choices.

I think they missed a trick though because we were all told to bring a packed lunch. I had expected them to discuss with each of us what we had brought. Instead, they showed us plastic models of bacon, fried eggs and sausages.

 

[Yorksman]

If anyone remembers, this was the BBC's Steve Wright in the Afternoon's take on the Newcastle Diet:

Mr Fudd - And That's Before mi Tea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-fPtX51u9c

 

[julie54]

Yorksman - sounds a frighteningly similar experience!!! And guess what they produced for mid morning coffee - a big plate of pastries filled with some sort of sweet mincemeat!!! And they handed them round and people, of course took them!!! I - needless to say - declined!!! What hope, eh!!!!

 

[janeecee]

It appears that the NHS advice and education is woefully inadequate. So far I'm outside the system as my GPs won't accept that postprandial hyperglycaemia is a problem as long as the fasting and Hba1c is 'normal'. I'm very much on my own trying to figure it out and learn what works and what doesn't. Having lived with another chronic illness for over 20 years, I am well aware of that feeling of just being left to get on with it, as well as inadequate support from healthcare professionals. I think that the public are under the misguided impression that after diagnosis (of any long term condition) there is some sort of care package and support system in place, but the reality is that you are just left to get on with it with very little help. These courses aimed at newly diagnosed diabetics seem quite ridiculous by all accounts.

I'm also wary of the 'one size fits all' approach to diabetes management. It's mostly aimed at the 'metabolic syndrome' patient profile, and focuses on weight loss and stupid advice like 'swap your morning Danish pastry at coffee break for a plain scone' and rubbish like that. I have absolutely no dietary vices to give up, my 'sensible' chick pea curry with half my previous portion of brown rice sent me up to 9.6 at 2 hours, and I dread to think what the reading would have been at 1 hour. And then I had my GP telling me it was normal and nothing to worry about! If I'd had a huge Christmas dinner and stuffed myself, maybe I would accept that, but a 'healthy' modest home-cooked meal? :***:

Sadly, I don't fit the typical profile, so all the advice dished out to pre-d and T2 worthless. I was very excited about the ND when I first learned about it. 'The diet that cures diabetes' so the headlines said. But on closer inspection it's a low calorie weight loss programme, with significant weight loss being the cornerstone, and useless for a prediabetic with a BMI of just 20. Also the markers for reversal were Hba1c results of <6% and fasting BGs of <6.5 (but don't quote me on that, I'm going from memory). Some ND successes were still on the threshold of prediabetes, so what exactly does 'reversal' mean?

Gezzathorpe, I'm sorry your efforts to reverse your condition have been met with derision and ridicule. Our carb tolerance varies as does our physical activity levels etc, and some people need to accept your reversal at face value. I would be interested if you were to post your studies on here, if you feel it's the right thing to do. I'm still learning so all info is useful.


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[julie54]

Just linked through to the video Yorksman - made me laugh out loud! The alternative Newcastle Diet!!!!!

 

[Luna21]

I found it so sad that the other people there were so lost and confused with lack of information since their diagnosis, and although I have no doubt that the course content will help them to at least understand their condition, I am not sure whether the advice given will empower them.

It was the same on the Desmond course that I attended. One bloke in his mid 80s worried about his feet wondering if he would be able to walk up the steep hill to his house in future, another bloke with anxiety problems getting even more anxious about what he should be eating. One young asian lad was completely paranoid and in the 'it's inevitable, I'm going to become blind, crippled and then die' camp and another older asian bloke in his mid 70's who was slim and appeared fit and who was very jolly and who had a positive attitude. One young lady was simply silent the whole day. I think she was scared. Another asian bloke just wanted to talk about Polynesians eating too much suckling pig, one woman saying that she was too fat and another saying she couldn't get her meter to work.

There were two young women, a dietician and a podiatrist trying to knit some sort of meaningful presentation together for this range of experiences and emotions. I did learn something about different types of fibre and different types of fat but it was a relatively long day just for that. I thought they had been given a thankless task so someone could say that they had implemented positive programmes to make diabetics aware of their lifestyle choices.

I think they missed a trick though because we were all told to bring a packed lunch. I had expected them to discuss with each of us what we had brought. Instead, they showed us plastic models of bacon, fried eggs and sausages.

I must admit that I too found the course disappointing. I was very underwhelmed by the advice given out, and the main grouse from those at the course was that they still didn't know what was 'right' for them to eat. Many were totally confused as it seemed that the main theme on my course was only sugar and fats. Very little said about carbohydrates, and nothing at all about cutting back on your carbs.
It was a very long day, and to be honest, I have learned much more from this site than I did on that day, which is not good for those who don't seek out information for themselves.
We got the plastic food too, and although we had a bit of fun with it, it really was a waste of time, and a lot of time was spent on it! :shock:

Anyway, I don't presume to know as much as many on this forum, but surely our thread opener was jesting when he said that his aim was to get off insulin as a type1? What he chooses to do with his health is up to him, but I'm concerned about those other people who pop in here for sensible advice and read his opening post.

The advice on diabetes, both types, is very muddled and really needs to be looked at, but I'm almost certain that type1 diabetics will always need some insulin, whether they change their diet or not. Granted they may be able to reduce it, but not stop it altogether?
If there were a 'magic' diet, I'm sure someone would have found it by now, and made millions of £££'s at the same time! :crazy:

 

[janeecee]

Some Newcastle Diet definitions of 'reversal'.

So, it all depends on your definition of 'reversal'. It means below the cutoff point diagnostic for diabetes (but not necessarily prediabetes), and off all meds. It appears that significant weight loss and duration since diagnosis were the keys to the success of the ND. I guess it's not magic. It's more about good control, and not a return to a permanent nondiabetic state.

-----------------------

Reversal of diabetes was defined as achieving fasting capillary blood glucose < 6.1 mmol/l and/or, if available, HbA1c less than 43 mmol/mol (6.1%) off treatment.

Results
Self-reported weight fell from 96.7 +/- 17.5 kg at baseline to 81.9 +/- 14.8 kg after weight loss (P < 0.001).

Self- reported fasting blood glucose levels fell from 8.3 mmol/l (5.9–33.0) to 5.5 mmol/l (4.0–10.0) after the weight loss period (P < 0.001).

Diabetes reversal was considered to have occurred in 61% of the population.

Reversal of diabetes was observed in 80, 63 and 53% of those with > 20, 10–20 and < 10 kg weight loss, respectively.

There was a significant correlation between degree of weight loss and reported fasting glucose levels (Rs –0.38, P = 0.006).

Reversal rates according to diabetes duration were: short (< 4 years) = 73%, medium (4–8 years) = 56% and long (> 8 years) = 43%.

Conclusion
These data demonstrate that intentional weight loss achieved at home by health-motivated individuals can reverse Type 2 diabetes. Diabetes reversal should be a goal in the management of Type 2 diabetes.

--------------------------


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[Yorksman]

Some Newcastle Diet definitions of 'reversal'.

So, it all depends on your definition of 'reversal'.

That sounds as if you have taken it from the the self reported study published this year. The original Counterpoint Study measured first phase insulin response, maximal insulin response and level of pancreatic triglycerides. With enough weight loss, these figures became normalised with the non diabetic control group.

In fig C, the severe diet was used to mimick the effct of bariatric surgery. Taylor states however that it doesn't have to be that quick but success depends on something like a 30% drop in liver fats which is required to trigger the drop in pancreatic fats.

Obviously, on the 2013 self reporting study, it was not possible to measure anything other than the subjects own hand meter readings. The actual work done by Newcastle is in the Magnetic Resonance Centre where they have a range of imaging devices. One of their aims is to use MR imaging to accurately assess the level of damage to the beta cell mass, something which is at present unknown.

 

[janeecee]

The problem is, for the rest of us, we don't have access to the MRI scanners at Newcastle University and we're not part of that study, so we don't really know how much fat we have in our liver and pancreas, nor do we have access to the same range of blood tests. How can we as a laypeople know what metabolic processes are going wrong (or right) at any particular point, and how far along the continuum we are, and most importantly, can we reverse whatever is going on? And if so, how can we tell?

I am not a diagnosed T2 so I don't even have access to regular Hba1c tests. What I can do is test myself with a glucometer, and use my bathroom scales and a tape measure. Prof Taylor says it's all down to losing fat from the liver and pancreas, but how do I know if that is happening. I have very little weight to spare as it is. Since trying to control my BG levels, I have unintentionally dropped a few pounds but with no effect on my BG levels. So, perhaps this means of 'reversing' diabetes isn't going too work for me. Or perhaps it will if I get my BMI down to 18.5, who knows, but that's verging on being unhealthily underweight.

By the definitions used in the ND study, my FBG and Hba1c would not count as 'diabetic' and if a participant had the same FBG and Hba1c as I had at the end of the ND study, they would be considered 'reversed'. So how could I, as someone with postprandial hyperglycaemia but normal fasting levels, and a BMI of 20, apply the key principles of the ND to restore my first phase insulin response?

I did write to Newcastle University to explain my full situation, including my inability to exercise which I feel is a contributory factor, and offered myself as a guinea pig to see if their regime could reverse prediabetes/impaired glucose tolerance but I heard nothing back from them. I didn't even get as much as an automated 'out of the office' reply. Not that I was expecting much, they probably are inundated with enquiries. Still…it would have been good to have been told why the ND regime might have worked for me, or why I may be unsuitable. At this weight, and with a longstanding chronic illness, the DIY Newcastle Diet might not be the right thing to do unsupervised, but I did at least make serious enquiries.


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[Yorksman]

The problem is, for the rest of us, we don't have access to the MRI scanners at Newcastle University and we're not part of that study, so we don't really know how much fat we have in our liver and pancreas, nor do we have access to the same range of blood tests. How can we as a laypeople know what metabolic processes are going wrong (or right) at any particular point, and how far along the continuum we are, and most importantly, can we reverse whatever is going on? And if so, how can we tell?

Well Taylor isn't treating us, he's trying to get the Health Service to take weight loss seriously. The Counterpoint Study in 2011 aimed to confirm, by diet, something which had been observed in people who had bariatric surgery, namely that their diabetes seemed to have disappeared. As Taylor wrote in Practical Diabetes Journal:

"An unexpected result of publication of the Counterpoint study was the intensity and volume of response from people with diabetes. Over 800 emails, letters and phone calls were received about the study. The major theme was of relief at the possibility that type 2 diabetes may not necessarily be a life sentence, and this was coupled with very strong views about the personally devastating effect of the diagnosis of type 2 diabetes. Clearly, these views were expressed by a self-selected group of people who felt very strongly and were motivated to communicate. However, the vital point remains that a substantial number of people are strongly motivated to take action, drastic if necessary, to regain their health. In order to answer the most common questions asked and to provide the practical information requested, our website was extended (http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres)"

He campaigns for a change in attitude, this from the Banting Lecture:

"It has become widely accepted that Type 2 diabetes is inevitably life-long, with irreversible and progressive beta cell damage. However, the restoration of normal glucose metabolism within days after bariatric surgery in the majority of people with Type 2 diabetes disproves this concept."

He is aware that the Health Service is complacent about the issue:

"It must be recorded that many individuals expressed frustration at the routine manner in which their doctor, nurse or dietitian regarded the diagnosis of type 2 diabetes. This conflicted with the cataclysmic blow which they personally felt. They were told that the diagnosis was clear and therefore the guidelines will be rolled out. Lose some weight and take this metformin. Get used to it."

He's extended the department's magnetic resonance website to include pages and links on this subject, for the benefit of the general public and has FAQ's and even guidance notes for GPs. http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/di ... versal.htm

It's one team trying to get the NHS to take this work seriously.

Essentially, he is going over the heads of the NHS by discussing the matter with the general public directly. Few academics would put their career necks on the line in this way. He wants the NHS to be planning your care and requesting scans, but they drag their feet. So, he's saying to us, just lose as much weight as you can and get your GP to help you lose weight.

It might be 20 years before the NHS do anything about this. He's even trying to embarass them on cost grounds. This from MedScape:

"Physicians need to accept that long-term weight loss is achievable for a worthwhile proportion of patients. In the United States, diabetes costs $174 billion annually, and in the United Kingdom, it accounts for 10% of National Health Service expenditure. Even if only a small proportion of patients with type 2 diabetes return to normal glucose control, the savings in disease burden and economic cost will be enormous."

Like you though, I don't know. I've lost 30 Kg and all my readings are well within the normal range. I can even eat chips, ice cream and a bun and I'm in the normal range. But, I don't know what the state of my pancreas is and I still have 30 Kg to lose, so, I'll plod on. Having said that, just losing the weight so far has given me a new lease of life so, even if I don't get 'cured', it will have been worth it. I hope and trust that the decreased glucose levels too will be of benefit to my heart, eyes, kidney and toes. I'll wait until I lose another 10Kg before I experiment with sweet stuff again. At least I have something to hang on to.

 

[janeecee]

Yes, but it all seems to depend on weight loss and the assumption that most T2s are overweight by at least 15-20%. From what I have read on this forum, many people report weight loss in terms of several stone and even those who self report as not overweight are actually at the high end of 'normal' which is hardly what you'd call lean. Similarly, many people talk of 'giving up' the pasties and biscuits, fast food, take aways, social drinking, etc. I'm actually in a minority with no weight to lose and no bad dietary habits, and it's very difficult to work out what is the best way to help myself. Even the NHS advice assumes that people with prediabetes, never mind T2, can avoid progression to T2 by…surprise, surprise…losing weight and giving up the pies! So, I'm still a bit stuck as to what I can do because all this talk of 'reversing' diabetes seems to assume the 'metabolic syndrome' profile as typical.


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[Yorksman]

From what I have read on this forum, many people report weight loss in terms of several stone and even those who self report as not overweight are actually at the high end of 'normal' which is hardly what you'd call lean.

That's right. The research is only on type 2 diabetes. It excludes some other forms. In the FAQ, http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/di ... dy_000.pdf , it states:

"This research is in type 2 diabetes, the usual common form of diabetes. There are some rare forms of diabetes which may be in correctly called type 2 diabetes:

a) Diabetes occurring after several attacks of pancreatitis is likely to be due to direct damage to the pancreas (known as pancreatic diabetes)

b) Secondly, people who are slim and are diagnosed with diabetes in their teens and twenties, with a very strong family history of diabetes, may have a genetic form (known as monogenic diabetes)

c) Thirdly, type 1 diabetes sometimes comes on slowly in adults, and these people usually require insulin therapy within a few years of diagnosis (slow onset type 1)."

Some people however appear slim but do actually carry a lot of fat in their liver and pancreas. Michael Moseley falls into this category, hence his personal interest in the subject. Such people get no warning signs. At least if you keep getting bigger, you sort of know there is a danger. How fat is depositied in the body is a mystery. Some people get it here and some people get it there. You should, in my opinion, be able to ask your GP for an MRI scan of your liver and pancreas but the reality is that they won't take your request seriously. It's a disgrace. It costs about £200 to have one done privately. Has your GP even told yuo what you have? Mine hasn't by the way. He just said diabetes.