• Guest - w'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the 2025 Survey »

Another reason to watch those carbs...

AliB

Well-Known Member
Messages
334
Location
South Wales
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
This week I have done a bit of an experiment.

Hub and I are both gluten intolerant. I dumped it when my digestion collapsed, and found that the raging diarrhoea and awful stomach pain went away. My restless legs and burning feet also went too. No more IBS or RLS. :D

Over the past three years I have done loads of research and investigation as to why. Why do so many people now have problems with gluten? In fact, one thing I learned very quickly through Celiac forums is that many who go gluten free do not recover - or only partially recover, so the problem isn't just gluten. They dump the gluten, then they get problems with corn, so they dump that, then they get problems with soy so they dump that - and so on.

What I have finally learned is the fact that we have so many problems with these foods - the wheat, barley, rye, oats, corn, soy, etc., because they are not prepared properly before consumption.

All seeds - grains, seeds, beans, pulses, nuts etc., contain - to a greater or lesser degree, nutrient blockers or 'anti-nutrients' (phytates, oxalates and salicylates) that prevent the seeds from premature germination. Germination will only take place when they come in contact with water for an extended amount of time. That triggers the enzymes (phytase, etc.) that break down the nutrient-blockers and allow germination.

Unfortunately, when we ingest the un-neutralised blockers, they prevent us from not only absorbing the nutrition in the grain, but anything else we eat with them. So all grains and seeds need to go through some kind of soaking process before consumption - for 12 to 24 hours depending on the seed and how much blockers it contains. The soaking not only triggers the enzymes, but it also triggers a nutrient 'explosion' to feed the (now growing) seed. That would make the grain or seed far more nutritious for us too. We are told that grains supply this or that vitamin - maybe they do - but we can't get at them!

Our ancestors knew this. Perhaps they didn't know why, but they knew that preparing their food this way made it more nutritious and safe for them to eat. It wasn't just ancient people that did this - in parts of the World where the Western diet still hasn't penetrated, they still prepare their grains in the traditional ways that have been passed down to them through the centuries.

In the interest of speed and profit, and 'modern progress' we have lost this wisdom that has been learned through trial and test over thousands of years. They learned the hard way, through trial and error - we are just doing the 'error' bit!

In traditional bread-making, the baker would start the bread in the afternoon or early evening, leave it to prove overnight and finish baking it in the early morning - well over the 6 hours needed for the chemical and enzymatic interactions to take place between the flour, yeast and water, that would completely convert the gluten into a substance the body can use. Most commercially-made bread is produced following the 'Chorleywood' process that can put the flour in one end and bread out the other within 45 minutes. Speed and profit over health. Even home-made bread doesn't escape - modern breadmakers churn out a loaf within two hours.

It seems that it is the incompletely - or totally unconverted in many cases, gluten that is the real culprit. It's not the gluten - or us - it's what it hasn't gone through - that is the problem.

Now, my husband - if he gets glutened, turns into 'Attila the Hun' for the best part of a week. He becomes bedridden, in pain, deeply depressed, has severe brain-fog and gets very angry and frustrated. You can almost see the black cloud hanging over his head! (He was like that for years until we discovered the gluten connection!)

I read, on a webpage about long-fermented sourdough bread I just happened to chance upon, that the recipe author had found that people who prepare the bread properly - in the time-honoured way, didn't have any problems with it, so on Monday I started making some sourdough bread. Hub has now eaten this bread every day for the last three days - without so much as a twitch. He is his usual (gluten-free) cheerful self sitting watching the Tennis semi-final without so much as a 'gluten murmur'.

I also had a taste of the bread, and I didn't react either. No IBS, no RLS. Amazing.

Now then, it occurred to me, that if it takes a minimum of 6 hours to make the complete conversion, and a decent amount of soaking to break down the phytates, because the Western diet is so, so loaded with unprepared grains and seeds, it really is little wonder that things like gluten intolerance and Coeliac Disease are rapidly increasing. Soy apparently contains one of the highest levels of phytates of all the seeds and that is another thing that is put into virtually everything in some form or another - even in baby formula, which is worrying.

As Diabesity (diabetes and obesity) is also on the rapid increase could it be at least in part because, although we are extremely overfed, we are also becoming rapidly undernourished (and many people inherit a low level of nutrition from their under-nourished parents to start with).

I have felt this to be an issue for a long time, but the revelation that the grain-based stuff is actually depleting us of nutrition rather than giving it to us, has really made me feel this to be an even greater problem than most people realise.
 
Hi AliB

I have a friend who makes her own 100% wholemeal organic bread, made exactly as you say in the traditional method.

Occasionally she gives me a loaf, and I never refuse, 'cos it's delicious. I was really pleased to find that it doesn't affect my blood glucose levels in the slightest. I don't eat much at a sitting, of course - one of her small loaves will last me 4 days.

I don't have any problems metabolising gluten, but have eaten almost nothing but 100% wholemeal bread since about 1974, when only Marks and Spencer sold it. Only occasionally do (or rather, did) I stray into the white bread zone (though I love ciabatta!)

Chorleywood-type white bread is not at all the same thing as Mavis' bread!

Viv 8)
 
Unfortunately Viv, unless you can afford to go to an 'artisan' bread shop that is more likely to make the bread in the traditional way with the long proving time, then even wholemeal bread is left to rise for too short a time to convert properly which doesn't make it actually that much better for us than white bread - and as the phytates are mostly collected in the bran, in some ways it can be even worse!

If your friend leaves it to prove for several hours then she is making it the way it has been done for thousands of years - and that seems to make all the difference.

I think that just because we don't get any obvious reactions to it doesn't mean that improperly prepared flour products aren't damaging us. For years I never realised that it was the gluten that was triggering many of my and my husband's health problems. It wasn't until we dumped it and those issues went away that we realised what it had been doing to us all those years. Not only had it been causing these problems, but it had also been very slowly robbing our bodies of nutrition and that was triggering other issues.

It's REALLY interesting that the properly made bread doesn't affect your glucose levels. I wonder if other people have found that. If the correct process converts the gluten properly, then maybe it does something to the glucose element in the bread too....
 
Your experiment would be worth trying. I love the way that you constantly search for new ideas (old in this case and perhaps most cases).
We do have a sourdough bakery about 40 mins away though I did try it as I started to cut the carbs. Might be cheaper than buying wheat flour then tossing it out. Perhaps my digestion might be healed enough to try and test again.
 
I maybe didn't explain properly that Mavis' loaves are very small - a slice will be about 80mm x 100mm - and I have loads of butter on it :D . Two hours later my bg levels will be back where they were, more or less - I've never tested at either shorter or longer intervals.

Other than that I eat very little bread.

Viv 8)
 
Hi Clearviews - you don't necessarily have to make or buy sourdough bread - even yeasted bread is ok - BUT it has to have had a long proving time. Not even commercially-made sourdough has necessarily had a long prove.

It's the long and overnight proving that is the key. It HAS to prove for a minimum of 6 hours to convert properly, and preferably much longer. If it has a long prove, it doesn't need so much yeast either.

http://nourishedmagazine.com.au/blog/ar ... ough-bread

I am in the process of making a banana 'loaf' (from the 'Nourishing Traditions' book). I added the buttermilk and yoghurt to the flour last night and left it to soak, and will add the rest of the ingredients later and bake it.
 
I've found a real friend in the Ezekiel Sprouted Bread - sourdough and wheat varieties. Actually 'helps' my Bg levels staying normalized.. Who knew? I wonder if it's proved for the 6 hours being talked about here.. My wife is Coeliac's.

What it doesn't explain well -- is why people get an 'onset' of Coeliac's later in life. Is it simply that the body starts to revolt? :roll:
 
Before diagnosis I used to bake bread 2-3 times a week, sometimes white and sometimes wholemeal. I used to do it according to the instruction on the flour bad and only let it prove for around 2 hours. Then I found a video on youtube and from then on the bread just tasted and smelled better. Only use one quester teaspoon full of yeast, about 1 teaspoon full salt and no sugar. The trick is to let it prove for a minimum of 12 hours and bake it in a very hot cast iron pot. I haven't got one of those so I use a pyrex instead.

I only make it very occasionally now because the smell of the baking bread makes me very hungry and I just can't stop eating the oven hot fantastic tasting bread....not good for BG, maybe 4/5 times a year now. :cry:

This is the video that changed the way I bake bread.
[youtube]13Ah9ES2yTU[/youtube]
 
Thank Ka-Mon. I had come across Jim Lahey's recipe but it was interesting to watch him make it. I think I would prefer to mix the yeast into the water and let it dissolve before adding it to the mix as it would tend to prevent those big holes that were apparent in his bread because the yeast hadn't distributed evenly. I suppose if you like big holes it's ok though.....

I have to say, that as the flour needs the long proving before being baked, I wouldn't dredge the bread in unsoaked flour before putting it in the oven as that would trigger the 'gluten' reactions, but I would probably oil the board with coconut oil and melt some on my hands and rub it over the dough as it apparently gives a lovely crisp crust. I have to make sure that ALL the flour is incorporated in the mix, so there is no risk of unprepared flour being left behind. I mix it thoroughly to ensure all the flour is moist and then transfer the dough to a clean bowl to prove in.

That is interesting 'NewDestiny' that the Ezekiel bread doesn't appear to spike your sugar levels. It is made from sprouted/germinated wheat so the phytates have been neutralised and it is a lot more nutritious. I might try having a go at that at some point in the future.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the commercial fast-tracked bread, and all the other unprepared wheat in other baked goods was in fact a big factor in driving the diabetes.

Something has to be triggering it. For it to be growing at such an exponential rate and to now becoming rampant even in young people and children is very worrying. It has gone from being an 'old person's' disease, to occuring across the board.

It used to be believed - for many years - and is sadly still stuck in the psyche of many Doctors - that Celiac only happened in chidren who 'failed to thrive', but now it is recognised that people appear to develop it as they grow older. I suspect it depends on how long their bodies can hold out against the tide of unprepared grains that our food is now awash with.

So much of our food is denatured and 'deadened' by the processes it is put through. So many processes in our bodies are run by enzymes, but as we get older, our ability to make enough enzymes depletes. If we are eating food that contains the enzymes needed for its digestion, like fermented foods, raw dairy, raw honey, salad vegetables, fruit, etc., then we are helping to support our enzyme levels. But if most of what we eat is 'dead' food - pasteurised, homogenised, hydrolysed, fractionated, denatured, etc., and food like bread and other baked goods that have not been prepared to enable our digestions to be able to process them properly, eventually the enzymes will become very depleted.

We are also lacking in a lot of nutrition - the elements the body needs to make the enzymes from. As we age, we get more and more nutritionally depleted as these foods take so much away from us.

I started getting 'apparent' (meaning that the deterioration had probably started years before it became apparent) digestive issues in my early 20's. I suspect the fact that I had weight gain from my teens onwards was an indication that my body's ability to digest the unprepared grains was already impaired. I recognised quite early on that carbs were a problem for me but kept 'persevering' with them.

My digestion kept deteriorating over the next 30 years - I eventually ended up with IBS-D for the latter 12 years before it finally all but collapsed on me 3 years ago. I was a mess. Could hardly eat anything as it was all going straight through me. Over the years because my digestion was so impaired I was getting nutritionally weaker and weaker, and lacking the nutrition my body needed to create the enzymes from.

Since I have been on the healing diet the last 14 months, I have very gradually been rebuilding my nutritional status and things are starting to reverse. Whether it will heal the diabetes remains to be seen - maybe the damage is too great, but only time will tell on that. Still, lots of other things are gradually improving - including my digestion.
 
AliB said:
That is interesting 'NewDestiny' that the Ezekiel bread doesn't appear to spike your sugar levels. It is made from sprouted/germinated wheat so the phytates have been neutralised and it is a lot more nutritious. I might try having a go at that at some point in the future.
And do the 'phytates' being neutralised mean that it's better for us in terms of this 'letting the dough sit overnight' that's the focus of this thread? Or is that a different process?

It used to be believed - for many years - and is sadly still stuck in the psyche of many Doctors - that Celiac only happened in chidren who 'failed to thrive', but now it is recognised that people appear to develop it as they grow older. I suspect it depends on how long their bodies can hold out against the tide of unprepared grains that our food is now awash with.
The other problem here is that most doctors don't recognize the differing ways Celiac's presents based on age. Celiac's main symptoms are 'lower GI based' in young people and kids.. Gastric issue.. But in adults and even moreso in and after midlife -- it's main symptoms are 'joint inflammation'. A good 60% of 'eventual' Celiac's patients, who are people that go first to neurologists for Rheumatoid and Inflammatory (non-rhuematoid) arthritis are really just dealing with Celiac's disease - and yet they put them on these super strong drugs instead of just telling them to eliminate wheat and gluten. This was the case with my wife. She now understand why she had so much lower GI problems as a kid. She was fairly okay from 30-45 and then the horrible inflammatory arthritis set in mid forties. She found out from an internet study she read that stopping wheat might help. Lo and behold within 2 months of stopping all wheat she went from getting out of chair like a 90 year old to herself again -- no pain of any kind.

Unreal!!! But not til after she'd suffered for 3 years with no answers. On and off steroids and the most hard drugs on your liver like Methotrexate.
 
NewdestinyX said:
AliB said:
That is interesting 'NewDestiny' that the Ezekiel bread doesn't appear to spike your sugar levels. It is made from sprouted/germinated wheat so the phytates have been neutralised and it is a lot more nutritious. I might try having a go at that at some point in the future.
And do the 'phytates' being neutralised mean that it's better for us in terms of this 'letting the dough sit overnight' that's the focus of this thread? Or is that a different process?

I'd never heard of "Ezekiel Bread" before so I did a search and came upon the article which I've pasted the link for below. Is this the same bread you are talking about or is there another one?

I sure hope it's not the same one! :shock: :shock: :shock:

http://nobeliefs.com/washingtonnews/EzekielBread.htm
 
Ka-Mon said:
NewdestinyX said:
AliB said:
That is interesting 'NewDestiny' that the Ezekiel bread doesn't appear to spike your sugar levels. It is made from sprouted/germinated wheat so the phytates have been neutralised and it is a lot more nutritious. I might try having a go at that at some point in the future.
And do the 'phytates' being neutralised mean that it's better for us in terms of this 'letting the dough sit overnight' that's the focus of this thread? Or is that a different process?

I'd never heard of "Ezekiel Bread" before so I did a search and came upon the article which I've pasted the link for below. Is this the same bread you are talking about or is there another one?

I sure hope it's not the same one! :shock: :shock: :shock:

http://nobeliefs.com/washingtonnews/EzekielBread.htm
You have to be careful what you read in 'blogs'. There are usually 'agendas'. That's the bread. He makes no scientific statements. It's a 'spouted bread' product. I buy it for THAT aspect - not anything to do with any Christian underpinnings. There are other 'sprouted' bread products out there under different names. But to get educated about it -- Google -- 'sprouted breads'.
 
NewdestinyX said:
Ka-Mon said:
I'd never heard of "Ezekiel Bread" before so I did a search and came upon the article which I've pasted the link for below. Is this the same bread you are talking about or is there another one?

I sure hope it's not the same one! :shock: :shock: :shock:

http://nobeliefs.com/washingtonnews/EzekielBread.htm
You have to be careful what you read in 'blogs'. There are usually 'agendas'. That's the bread. He makes no scientific statements. It's a 'spouted bread' product. I buy it for THAT aspect - not anything to do with any Christian underpinnings. There are other 'sprouted' bread products out there under different names. But to get educated about it -- Google -- 'sprouted breads'.


Yes, I agree about having to be careful what you read in blogs but there is a picture of the "Ezekeil Bread 4:12 with Human Dung" written on it. I don't think he will be silly enough to forge a product like that no matter what his "agenda" was.

I think the makers of the bread would sue him from here to Kingdom come and force his ISP to close his blog immediately if he was lying. The fact that that article has been up since 2006 tells me that they can't do anything about it because it is true what he wrote. And why would he need to make a "scientific statement"? Surely an original picture of the original bread is ample proof of his claims, is it not?
 
Ka-Mon said:
Yes, I agree about having to be careful what you read in blogs but there is a picture of the "Ezekeil Bread 4:12 with Human Dung" written on it. I don't think he will be silly enough to forge a product like that no matter what his "agenda" was.

I think the makers of the bread would sue him from here to Kingdom come and force his ISP to close his blog immediately if he was lying. The fact that that article has been up since 2006 tells me that they can't do anything about it because it is true what he wrote. And why would he need to make a "scientific statement"? Surely an original picture of the original bread is ample proof of his claims, is it not?
What it claims as it's reason for existence is entirely beside the point as 'sprouted bread products' by other companies also exist. We need to be careful not to 'lose the forest for the trees' here. Just Google 'sprouted bread' and then we'll be 'looking at the trees' of the issue of 'sprouted breads'. The Ezekiel "SPROUTED" bread is the only bread I can eat that doesn't even move my meter at all. I'm stickin' with it. SOMETHING about it is working to not spike blood sugar. Doesn't matter whether the method comes from Judeo-Christian underpinnins or Confucius himself... It works as a diabetic safe food for me !! :D
 
NewdestinyX said:
Ka-Mon said:
Yes, I agree about having to be careful what you read in blogs but there is a picture of the "Ezekeil Bread 4:12 with Human Dung" written on it. I don't think he will be silly enough to forge a product like that no matter what his "agenda" was.

I think the makers of the bread would sue him from here to Kingdom come and force his ISP to close his blog immediately if he was lying. The fact that that article has been up since 2006 tells me that they can't do anything about it because it is true what he wrote. And why would he need to make a "scientific statement"? Surely an original picture of the original bread is ample proof of his claims, is it not?
What it claims as it's reason for existence is entirely beside the point as 'sprouted bread products' by other companies also exist. We need to be careful not to 'lose the forest for the trees' here. Just Google 'sprouted bread' and then we'll be 'looking at the trees' of the issue of 'sprouted breads'. The Ezekiel "SPROUTED" bread is the only bread I can eat that doesn't even move my meter at all. I'm stickin' with it. SOMETHING about it is working to not spike blood sugar. Doesn't matter whether the method comes from Judeo-Christian underpinnins or Confucius himself... It works as a diabetic safe food for me !! :D

Grant, I have searched and found out about other "sprouted breads", I am not saying there aren't any neither am I saying anything re "Christian" or "Judeo-Christian underpinnings". I have neither mentioned anything about your BG's or even you eating it, all I asked in my first posting re the Ezekiel Bread to find out if it's the same bread you are talking about. Did I anywhere say you should not eat it? Did I ask if you buy the bread because of your religious beliefs? No, nothing of the sort.

What I did was to reply to your comment about being careful of what one reads in blogs and about the author of that blog not making a scientific claim. It's your diabetes and your choice how you decide to keep it under control and what diet you choose. Whatever you choose is not going to do me any good or any damage for that matter. All I asked was "is that the bread you are talking about" because it was you who mentioned Ezekiel Bread by name in the first place and not any other sprouted bread.

Anyway, I think it might be best if we drop this conversation as I have a feeling that it's making you uncomfortable which was not my intention in the first place.
 
Ka-Mon said:
Grant, I have searched and found out about other "sprouted breads", I am not saying there aren't any neither am I saying anything re "Christian" or "Judeo-Christian underpinnings". I have neither mentioned anything about your BG's or even you eating it, all I asked in my first posting re the Ezekiel Bread to find out if it's the same bread you are talking about. Did I anywhere say you should not eat it? Did I ask if you buy the bread because of your religious beliefs? No, nothing of the sort.

What I did was to reply to your comment about being careful of what one reads in blogs and about the author of that blog not making a scientific claim. It's your diabetes and your choice how you decide to keep it under control and what diet you choose. Whatever you choose is not going to do me any good or any damage for that matter. All I asked was "is that the bread you are talking about" because it was you who mentioned Ezekiel Bread by name in the first place and not any other sprouted bread.

Anyway, I think it might be best if we drop this conversation as I have a feeling that it's making you uncomfortable which was not my intention in the first place.
I'm sorry, Ka-Mon.. I may have entirely misunderstood your original post to me. Already, in only 40 or so posts, I've been dealing with a couple of 'seeming' agenda-driven members that have 'jumped on me' without a provocation that I can recognize on my part -- -- what a welcome.. Most people have been AWESOME - please hear me.. But I think when I read your first post to me I picked up on a 'posture' in the words that it now appears you just didn't intend.

Here's what you wrote that made me get a little defensive:
Ka-Mon said:
Is this the same bread you are talking about or is there another one?

I sure hope it's not the same one! :shock: :shock: :shock:
The bold part is my emboldening but that line with the three 'shock face' smiley emoticons sorta gave me the impression that the 'claims of the bread' were at issue, the religious underpinnings, etc. So I didn't just 'make up an unprovoked' reaction out of the blue -- BUT- I DID 'infer' a communication from your words there -- that you're now saying was NOT YOUR INTENT at all. I accept that and take you at your word. But my reaction, again, wasn't entirely 'unwarranted' given the above quote.

We can SURELY leave it to rest and move on. No harm done of any kind.. Moving on.... :D
 
The only connection with Ezekiel was the fact that several different types of grain were used to make the bread. Why Ezekiel was required to make the bread was prophetic and does not bear any relevance to what is made today. However, the fact that the grains are soaked prior to making the bread does break down any phytates.

Ezekiel bread is usually made of ground germinated grain that is compressed into flat cakes and dehydrated, not baked. What you are basically getting is a 'bread' made with 'green vegetables' not milled grain 'per se'. Once sprouted it is no longer a grain, but a plant. If it has been baked, it is not proper 'Ezekiel' bread. As you say Grant, 'sprouted bread' is probably a better description. 'Ezekiel bread' is just a selling 'gimmick'. It's just a 'brand' name - is all.

With dough-based bread, the long fermentation also breaks down the phytates, but the chemical interactions also convert the gluten proteins into safe substances rather than damaging ones. However, although time consuming, the best process of all is to use freshly ground grain. That way, all the elements are still intact - the wheatgerm is still fresh and not rancid. All stored flour will lose elements relatively quickly. The wheatgerm - the bit that contains most of the nutrition goes rancid very quickly - which is why it is removed from most commercial bread - it is not good for shelf-life - and profit.

Gluten has been found to trigger all sorts of health issues, not just digestive or joint. My Mum's Celiac issues were Type 1 Diabetes, lifelong anaemia and fertility issues. Mine are IBS, restless legs (gluten ataxia) and burning feet. My husband's are depression, severe brain-fog, and an escalation of his joint pain and fibromyalgia. As he is not on the healing diet with me and still eats sugar, dairy and some GF carbs, I have no way of knowing if dumping those foods would completely put paid to the Arthritis and Fibro too.

http://www.celiac.com/articles/1106/1/C ... Page1.html

I think we have to be careful even with the properly made bread. I suspect that just like those with impaired carbohydrate metabolism have issues with carbs, some with gluten damage may still be sensitive to gluten, even if it is prepared properly, simply because their sensitivity has been heightened. 'True' Celiacs (although I am convinced that Celiac is just a more progressive and serious version of 'gluten intolerance') are far more 'damaged' in terms of their ability to absorb nutrition and may find ANY grain/seed based carbs difficult to deal with because of the phytate issue.

My hub has not been well this week, and although his reactions haven't followed the path that they would usually when he has been glutened, he may still be manifesting a slower response. I am monitoring this to see what happens over the next few weeks. His health goes up and down anyway, so I don't know if this is just a general malaise, or whether there is any connection. He is convinced it isn't the bread - but then he would be! Having been given it back, he doesn't want to lose it again!

Whilst my ONE Celiac test came back negative (my Doctor now recognises she needs to send people for testing several times before they will get a positive result - false negatives are VERY common), whether I am or not is pretty irrelevant as I am not bothered about knowing - and there is no way I would go back to eating unprepared grains to find out. We haven't a clue if my Hub is or not, as he has never bothered getting tested for it at all. He has had joint problems since he was a child, so it is quite possible that he has Celiac.

Like you with your wife - suffering for years without knowing the reason, I weep for all the years my Hub was in a gluten-induced stupor - and for all the years we as a family had to try and cope with it. The children's formative years were spent with a man whose temper could change at the drop of a hat, who always seemed to be angry and irritable, who was in too much pain to play with them, and the stress I was under as his temperament waved from one extreme to another without any warning. I was a nervous wreck when he was driving the car - he never knew where he was going - and I never knew whether it was right to give him directions or not, or whether he would pull out in front of someone! He couldn't see that his inability to mentally focus was a problem..... A lifetime spent treading on eggshells.

Life for us all is so much happier now. He is a different man off the gluten. Happy, gentle, considerate - focused. I just regret the fact that the discovery came too late for him to benefit during his youth, and for the kids and I to have benefitted too.
 
NewdestinyX said:
[I'm sorry, Ka-Mon.. I may have entirely misunderstood your original post to me. Already, in only 40 or so posts, I've been dealing with a couple of 'seeming' agenda-driven members that have 'jumped on me' without a provocation that I can recognize on my part -- -- what a welcome.. Most people have been AWESOME - please hear me.. But I think when I read your first post to me I picked up on a 'posture' in the words that it now appears you just didn't intend.

No everyone in this forum has an "agenda" Grant and you should only feel like defending yourself if you are sure that you are being attacked. And yes, there might have been (in fact there was) a "posture" in my words but it was of a shock and not that of attacking or humiliation that you may have encountered from others.

Here's what you wrote that made me get a little defensive:
Ka-Mon said:
Is this the same bread you are talking about or is there another one?

I sure hope it's not the same one! :shock: :shock: :shock:
The bold part is my emboldening but that line with the three 'shock face' smiley emoticons sorta gave me the impression that the 'claims of the bread' were at issue, the religious underpinnings, etc. So I didn't just 'make up an unprovoked' reaction out of the blue -- BUT- I DID 'infer' a communication from your words there -- that you're now saying was NOT YOUR INTENT at all. I accept that and take you at your word. But my reaction, again, wasn't entirely 'unwarranted' given the above quote.

Ok Grant, put yourself in my shoes and ask yourself how you would react if you read the same article about this bread. I believe that you would not react any differently if you didn't have a clue about the ingredients and the [Biblical] history of the bread and neither would anyone else.

I also believe that the way you reacted was a combination of the "warm" welcome you received by some members and possibly read that I was one of the "trouble making thugs" who are members of a certain "clique". Take my advice and don't believe everything you read seriously because as you've said, there are (or at the very least seem to be) "a couple of 'seeming' agenda-driven members". I'll not go into that any further for obvious reasons but I can tell you that other than looking after myself and controlling my own diabetes and helping if I can I have no other "agenda/s". The choice I made suits me and everyone has the right to choose whatever they wish. But alas some don't see it the way I (and others) do and label people as "thugs who must be put in their places" and as "members" of a certain "clique" of "anti-low-carbers" who are "trouble makers".

No one has the right to tell others how they must live their lives and what they must eat. We do not live in a country governed by dictators so every individual is (or should be) free to make their own choice of whatever they chose to eat or what regime to follow.

You are not the only one whose had a "warm welcome" from some members, many have been treated the same way, including myself.
 
Back
Top