Type 2 Anyone on this forum that has reversed/controlled their diabetes without going very low carb?

Pipp · Apr 9, 2018

Thank you for the tag @ziggy_w .

I didn't know about low carb method when I first tried Newcastle diet method, seven years ago. I used a total food replacement method, and although the meal replacement products had a total of around 90 grammes of carbs per day I did lose weight and regain control of blood glucose levels very quickly. It was medically supervised and I was in ketosis, even with that amount of carbs.
In the intervening years the Very Low Calorie Diets have developed and progressed. There are meal replacement products with carb content low enough to be regarded ketogenic diets. As I have read more forum experiences I do believe as a lifetime choice of eating regime low carb is the way that suits most with T2 diabetes. However, there seem to be individual differences for a variety of reasons in how much fat people can manage in their diet. For myself, who had out of control blood glucose, and the need to lose a great deal of weight, rapidly, the best method I could find at the time and with the information I had was to use the Total Food Replacement method. Today, older and wiser, I would probably use a strict keto very low calorie diet to start with. Either with meal replacement products or real food, or a combination. With medical support, I hasten to add, as medication and other health concerns need to be considered. I would follow up with a low carb diet for life. I actually enjoy food better without the addition of rice, bread, potatoes etc, and have never liked sugar.
Ultimately, to answer your question, in my experience low carb is one way for me to control my blood glucose and maintain weight loss. The very low calorie diet method, although allowing me to gain control of weight and blood glucose, is a temporary intervention, and a realiable follow on plan of low carb with sufficient moderate amounts of fat does it for me.

HeathKick2017 · Apr 9, 2018

Hiitsme said:
Hi @HeathKick2017
For me testing was the most important thing and finding what foods my body could cope with and what was better avoided. I didn't go very low carb but probably down to under 100 g of carbs a day. Maybe less at first but I just used my meter. I can now manage more carbs but I am 3 years into this and I still test.

Thank you! I have decided to stick to 100g a day as closely as possible

HeathKick2017 · Apr 9, 2018

Pipp said:
Thank you for the tag @ziggy_w .

I didn't know about low carb method when I first tried Newcastle diet method, seven years ago. I used a total food replacement method, and although the meal replacement products had a total of around 90 grammes of carbs per day I did lose weight and regain control of blood glucose levels very quickly. It was medically supervised and I was in ketosis, even with that amount of carbs.
In the intervening years the Very Low Calorie Diets have developed and progressed. There are meal replacement products with carb content low enough to be regarded ketogenic diets. As I have read more forum experiences I do believe as a lifetime choice of eating regime low carb is the way that suits most with T2 diabetes. However, there seem to be individual differences for a variety of reasons in how much fat people can manage in their diet. For myself, who had out of control blood glucose, and the need to lose a great deal of weight, rapidly, the best method I could find at the time and with the information I had was to use the Total Food Replacement method. Today, older and wiser, I would probably use a strict keto very low calorie diet to start with. Either with meal replacement products or real food, or a combination. With medical support, I hasten to add, as medication and other health concerns need to be considered. I would follow up with a low carb diet for life. I actually enjoy food better without the addition of rice, bread, potatoes etc, and have never liked sugar.
Ultimately, to answer your question, in my experience low carb is one way for me to control my blood glucose and maintain weight loss. The very low calorie diet method, although allowing me to gain control of weight and blood glucose, is a temporary intervention, and a realiable follow on plan of low carb with sufficient moderate amounts of fat does it for me.

Thank you very much for sharing! I will try to eat as low carb as I can — do you incorporate exercise into your routine? I’m wondering if exercise would mean higher carb tolerance as it’d be burnt off

HeathKick2017 · Apr 9, 2018

Brunneria said:
I would say

- it depends on the cause of your T2 (there are several different causes)

So if your T2 is the result of your extra weight and visceral fat on the liver and pancreas AND you lose that weight and keep it off, then your T2 may well reverse. So the weight loss is the key factor, and there are many different weight loss diets around, so pick one, do it, lose the weight, and voila! you are likely to get a disappearance of your T2. Unless you put that weight back on. Low carb is of value as a weight loss tool for many, but it isn't the only way. And low carb is helpful to prevent weight regain for people with insulin resistance, but it isn't the only way.

Having said that, if your T2 is caused by other things - and there are many, including medication, age, genetical likelihood, other illness, environmental factors, etc. etc. - then weight reduction may not be enough alone. People in this situation often find that a multi-pronged approach of diet, exercise, lifestyle, medication, and so on,. are necessary, and going low carb is a very powerful tool in the T2 toolbox.

Short answer: Start testing your blood glucose and map out what is happening to your blood glucose when you eat at your current carb level. That is usually a very good indication of whether we will benefit by reducing carbs further.

My personal view: People with T2 are 'carb intolerant'. Why would we choose to keep putting food into our bodies that we are intolerant to? and which we will probably get more intolerant to as we get older? So I think that low carb is a very very good idea in the long term, whether we 'reverse' or not.

Thank you very much! I found your reply very informative. Being that I am so young (21 years old) and I truly believe my sedentary lifestyle was the main cause of my obscene weight gain and diabetes I am hoping that with weight loss I can achieve remission. And to make this new way of eating carbs sensibly and staying active my way of life! And hopefully keep diabeties at bay for the rest of my life!

HeathKick2017 · Apr 9, 2018

MikeyU said:
Each of as is different, specially when it comes to physiology of our bodies, lcd works in most cases, especially in the beginning, when one is overweight/obese. Initially I dramatically reduced all carbs, especially simple sugars. This worked well, very well, until I got my weight to "normal" levels (BMI under 25) and increased my physical activities a lot. Then I noticed that the more carbs I cut, the higher my bg will rise, slow, steady rise until I eat some carbs and then my bg will start falling again. So now I upped my carbs intake, roughly to 100 g a day and voila! My bg started going down again, slowly but the trend is there. I also noticed that my insulin resistance has decreased, I do not spike so much anymore. I do consume more carbs in the mornings (some wholemeal rye bread), and early afternoons (usually some fruit, strawberries etc.), try to avoid carbs for dinner as much as possible. This gives me pretty good results. Last night I ate some potato salad (with decent portion of bbq meat, veggies and green salad) and my 1 hr postprandial reading was 7.3 and 2 hr was 5.2. Which would indicate a pretty good insulin response. This seems to work for me. I am still battling a dawn phenomenon though, my fbg is mostly in 5.5 - 6.0 range. Hopefully this will get better in time too.

Thank you! I’m actually doing IF at the moment so I eat my last meal at 5pm and first meal at 11am. 100g seems like an achievable amount that I can stick to

PenguinMum · Apr 9, 2018

HeathKick2017 said:
Thank you very much! I found your reply very informative. Being that I am so young (21 years old) and I truly believe my sedentary lifestyle was the main cause of my obscene weight gain and diabetes I am hoping that with weight loss I can achieve remission. And to make this new way of eating carbs sensibly and staying active my way of life! And hopefully keep diabeties at bay for the rest of my life!

You are already on your way with your lovely positive attitude. Good luck to you. Low Carbing is very rewarding in my opinion. I am doing it only 4 months and have never felt better and I am nearly 60 (21 in my head of course!).

Oldvatr · Apr 9, 2018

HeathKick2017 said:
Hello! I’m a newbie here and have spent about two months just reading everyones inspirational stories and adapting it to my life. I have reduced my carb intake and upped my physical activity. I have a lot of weight to loose at least 40kg. I found that 90% of the success stories on here are based on very low carb like less than 50g a day. For me, that is just not feasible, it will affect my quality of life. I don’t have a sweet tooth, I- can cut out all desert, chocs and sugary drinks. But bread and rice are a staple in my diet, I can’t see a life without it. (I like to be realistic) well my main question here is, is there any chance of me reversing or controlling my disease with these “little” changes I’m making e.g. staying under 100–150g of carbs daily?
Is there anyone that has done it?

I have achieved a good result, and reduced my meds significantly (75%) but I am just a control freak. I have not reversed ny condition and am still a PWD. But I am a happy PWD.

I started with 100 g / day, then reduced my meds, then lowered my carb intake etc. I did eventually get into ketosis but after I lost some weight I needed to stabilise things since my meds were causing mild hypo's. I relaxed on the carb counting over Xmas 2 years ago, and then carried on as just an LC diet. I fine tuned it so that by having 2 slices of toast in the morning, I avoided keto, and dropping to 1 a day let me burn fat. I used this for a year to alternate between the states to control both my bgl and my weight at the same time, and I found stability. I have since further reduced my meds again, and am still stable, but now I find I can tolerate higher carbs without too much drama.

The diet I use now is an LC variant of the Mediterranean Diet, and it suits me quite nicely. My family also share this diet, and my wife has lost 3 stones in the last 7 months without actually being carb restricted (she likes donuts and chocolate and....)

HeathKick2017 · Apr 9, 2018

PenguinMum said:
You are already on your way with your lovely positive attitude. Good luck to you. Low Carbing is very rewarding in my opinion. I am doing it only 4 months and have never felt better and I am nearly 60 (21 in my head of course!).

Thank you so much! I am definitely giving it a go. Haha you are so fab!

MikeyU · Apr 10, 2018

HeathKick2017 said:
Thank you! I’m actually doing IF at the moment so I eat my last meal at 5pm and first meal at 11am. 100g seems like an achievable amount that I can stick to

Yes, it's a good plan but remember, that first you need to cut carbs a lot, even way below 100g (and no simple sugars of course, none!!). Only after you achieve a normal weight (close to or below BMI of 25) and get reasonably fit, you can slowly start increasing carbs to 100-120g. And by being fit I do not mean 20-30 mins walks etc. I mean real cardio/aerobic exercise of 45-60 mins 3-4 times a week in addition to daily walking/cycling etc. Start small and gradually increase exercise levels. Once you crank up your metabolism, you can increase carbs intake. Experiment and you will find a sweet spot, enough carbs to provoke a correct insulin response and stop liver from dumping. Basically, the more physical activity, the more carbs you will tolerate. If you spend a day on a couch, no carbs. In time, your insulin resistance will drop and you will stop spiking too. It's all about balance.

Good luck!

One more thing, eat breakfast, early. Getting something in your stomach early stops liver from dumping. In my case, if I skip breakfast, my liver continues to dump and my BG slowly rises, even if my FBG was low. If I didn't eat, by lunch time it'd climb to 6-7 or even higher, all on it's own. I eat small amount of carbs (15-20g) for breakfast and it puts my liver to sleep nicely. Some people advocate IF, in my case it doesn't work well, I need to eat smaller portions but more often.

Granny_Mo · Apr 10, 2018

My husband Peter has lost about 35lbs in just under a year. He has a cervical spinal injury which means that his movement is very restricted and he can only walk very short distances in the house and not at all outside. So he has more than the normal amount of challenge.His blood tests are all in the non diabetic range now - last test was 35 HbA1c I think . He wouldn't claim to have reversed the diabetes but definitely has it under control. Initially he went low carb but not as low as 50 - more like 100gms a day. He isn't aiming to lose more weight now but stays reasonably low carb - about 150 ish. He is more inclined towards low GI now - which means some bread and rice but mainly the seedy wholemeal stuff. He doesn't miss rice so substitutes with cauliflower or celeriac rice. From what I read on here each person is different. I guess a lot of improvement comes with just losing weight. Even 10lbs made a huge difference to Peter's BG levels.

Oldvatr · Apr 10, 2018

MikeyU said:
Yes, it's a good plan but remember, that first you need to cut carbs a lot, even way below 100g (and no simple sugars of course, none!!). Only after you achieve a normal weight (close to or below BMI of 25) and get reasonably fit, you can slowly start increasing carbs to 100-120g. And by being fit I do not mean 20-30 mins walks etc. I mean real cardio/aerobic exercise of 45-60 mins 3-4 times a week in addition to daily walking/cycling etc. Start small and gradually increase exercise levels. Once you crank up your metabolism, you can increase carbs intake. Experiment and you will find a sweet spot, enough carbs to provoke a correct insulin response and stop liver from dumping. Basically, the more physical activity, the more carbs you will tolerate. If you spend a day on a couch, no carbs. In time, your insulin resistance will drop and you will stop spiking too. It's all about balance.

Good luck!

One more thing, eat breakfast, early. Getting something in your stomach early stops liver from dumping. In my case, if I skip breakfast, my liver continues to dump and my BG slowly rises, even if my FBG was low. If I didn't eat, by lunch time it'd climb to 6-7 or even higher, all on it's own. I eat small amount of carbs (15-20g) for breakfast and it puts my liver to sleep nicely. Some people advocate IF, in my case it doesn't work well, I need to eat smaller portions but more often.

Good point about Liver Dump / Dawn Phenomenon. It is something that many here will suffer from at some time. The liver is the main storehouse for glucogen (carb generated glucose) and there is a mechanism to utilise these stores whenever the bgl levels drop below a threshold that varies in each of us, and alters over time too, The thing to think about is that in order for the liver to do this, it must be holding glucogen at the time, i.e. there has to be an excess stored away previously to the morning. Ergo, this is a sign that somewhere in the previous day or so, you ate excess carbs and the insulin acted to store it away for 'future use'. So the diet previous was topping up the stores whenever it can to maintain what is actually a body defence mechanism against starvation.

One thing about a keto diet or vlc diet is that the intake of carbs and protein is low enough and regular enough to prevent this excess from occurring to do the top up, and hence the liver stores become depleted and unable to provide the liver dump. So an LC diet held for a prolonged period can lead to preventing this phenomenon from happening, PROVIDED you do not binge eat to top the liver stores up again. OR use exercise to burn up these stores during the day.

If you are not using a vlc or keto diet then you will need to be more aggressive regarding exercise which is fine when you are young and fit, but at my age and infirmity this becomes problematic to say the least. I do know from experience thar keeping carbs low gives me periods of lower daytime bgl, and I can tell when I had a slap up meal because the fallout from it takes a few days to subside.

I have been doing low crab for three years now, and have lost around 6" from my waistline, so I can say that it is feasible to maintain this way of life, and the benefits in terms of reduced IR certainly shine out compared to where I was three years ago.
Edit to correct: I love crab but it is CARB that does not love me.
Edit to update : Yesterday I got my annual HbA1c. It was 42 so something is working,

STARRYNIGHTS · Apr 10, 2018

HeathKick2017 said:
I found that 90% of the success stories on here are based on very low carb like less than 50g a day.
Is there anyone that has done it?

That is because most people of the people that hang out here like the low carb high fat diet and espouse it.
I found support on other forums elsewhere.

I had prediabetes and reversed it by following Dr McDougalls Starch solution.
I also bought and read Dr Neal Barnards book "Dr Neal Barnards Program for reversing diabetes: The scientifically Proven System for reversing Diabetes without Drugs"
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Neal-Barnards-Program-Reversing-Diabetes/dp/1594868107
You can pick up these books second hand from Amazon for as little as 1p, which is what i did!

My hba1c was 42- the next time they let me test it , 3 mths later, it was 35.
My macros consisted of 80% carbs, 10% fat and 10% protein.
I did high carb, Low fat, and the key is keeping your fat intake right down by NO added fats or oils to your food.
Once you are healthy, some added avocado , olives, nuts etc to your food is fine, but while you are trying to lose weight, cut them out.

During the time it dropped, my staple starches were White and sweet potatoes (about 5 potatoes and 1 large sweet potato a day) and Rice, sometimes white, mostly brown and I also did occasionally have some white naan bred with my soup for lunch.
For breakfast i had for the first 6 weeks a raison cinnamon bagel, but then decided I should eat something less processed, so went for porridge made with water, served with oatmilk and some coconut sugar or maple syrup.

On the Dr McDougall Friends facebook group, there are MANY people who were very sick diabetics who are fine now after going to a NO ADDED FATS OR OILS plant based, starch centred diet!
The added bonus is their risk of heart disease and other diseases also drops, as they see their cholesterol and other bloods fall into healthy levels.

Resurgam · Apr 10, 2018

My risk of heart disease fell too - eating saturated fats and meat - that is - my blood tests showed reduction - if that actually means anything I have yet to be convinced, as people have worked away and taken millions of tablets and pounded the pavements or the gym equipment and the general population is fatter and sicker with every low fat year that passes.
I'm afraid that low carb is the easy option as far as I an concerned.

MikeyU · Apr 10, 2018

Interesting fact, I had a Doctor's appointment this morning, no breakfast of course. My FBG was 5.1, After I got to the office around 9am, I had 2 slices of low carbs/high protein bread with avocado and ham. At 11:00 my BG was 6.8, not tragic but definitely elevated. Based on my previous observations, this is due to late breakfast (I got up at 6:30) and low carbs (I normally eat the normal wholemeal rye bread, not the low carbs version. Go figure....

Oldvatr · Apr 10, 2018

STARRYNIGHTS said:
That is because most people of the people that hang out here like the low carb high fat diet and espouse it.
I found support on other forums elsewhere.

I had prediabetes and reversed it by following Dr McDougalls Starch solution.
I also bought and read Dr Neal Barnards book "Dr Neal Barnards Program for reversing diabetes: The scientifically Proven System for reversing Diabetes without Drugs"
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Neal-Barnards-Program-Reversing-Diabetes/dp/1594868107
You can pick up these books second hand from Amazon for as little as 1p, which is what i did!

My hba1c was 42- the next time they let me test it , 3 mths later, it was 35.
My macros consisted of 80% carbs, 10% fat and 10% protein.
I did high carb, Low fat, and the key is keeping your fat intake right down by NO added fats or oils to your food.
Once you are healthy, some added avocado , olives, nuts etc to your food is fine, but while you are trying to lose weight, cut them out.

During the time it dropped, my staple starches were White and sweet potatoes (about 5 potatoes and 1 large sweet potato a day) and Rice, sometimes white, mostly brown and I also did occasionally have some white naan bred with my soup for lunch.
For breakfast i had for the first 6 weeks a raison cinnamon bagel, but then decided I should eat something less processed, so went for porridge made with water, served with oatmilk and some coconut sugar or maple syrup.

On the Dr McDougall Friends facebook group, there are MANY people who were very sick diabetics who are fine now after going to a NO ADDED FATS OR OILS plant based, starch centred diet!
The added bonus is their risk of heart disease and other diseases also drops, as they see their cholesterol and other bloods fall into healthy levels.

Here in the UK McDougall's is the largest corporate firm selling flour and starch products. Just saying......

Resurgam · Apr 10, 2018

I need to eat early and late to get my BG levels at their most even - fasting elevates morning levels and induces a rapid drop mid afternoon which feels awful.

MikeyU · Apr 10, 2018

Resurgam said:
My risk of heart disease fell too - eating saturated fats and meat - that is - my blood tests showed reduction - if that actually means anything I have yet to be convinced, as people have worked away and taken millions of tablets and pounded the pavements or the gym equipment and the general population is fatter and sicker with every low fat year that passes.
I'm afraid that low carb is the easy option as far as I an concerned.

In the end it's about balance, moderation and proportions, coupled with some exercise and weight loss. I think, extremes are never good...

bulkbiker · Apr 10, 2018

MikeyU said:
I think, extremes are never good...

Interestingly the evidence seems to show the opposite..
Those following an ultra low fat high carb mainly WFPB (the Barnard, Greger, McDonald followers) and those of us following a ketogenic ultra low carb high fat diet seems to get the "best" results along with that other extreme the ultra low calorie Newcastle diet. Those who do more moderate regimes sometimes get good results but not always. I think that there may be a genetic influence as there appear to some who follow WFPB (I avoid calling it vegan because that is more a political view) who thrive on it and others who really suffer. Most people who try keto seem to think it is easier than most other regimes because it provides satiety and more variety. ND is a short term thing so not really a "way of eating" and more a traditional style diet. I guess you pays yer money (or not) and makes your choice. I find keto easy to maintain and so will advocate it as working well for me. As always we have to find our own way.

Tannith · Apr 10, 2018

Professor Roy Taylor

A body of research putting people with Type 2 diabetes on a low calorie diet has confirmed the underlying causes of the condition and established that it is reversible.

Professor Roy Taylor at Newcastle University, UK has spent almost four decades studying the condition and will present an overview of his findings at the European Association For The Study Of Diabetes (EASD 2017) in Lisbon.

In the talk he will be highlighting how his research has revealed that for people with Type 2 diabetes:

Excess calories leads to excess fat in the liver
As a result, the liver responds poorly to insulin and produces too much glucose
Excess fat in the liver is passed on to the pancreas, causing the insulin producing cells to fail
Losing less than 1 gram of fat from the pancreas through diet can re-start the normal production of insulin, reversing Type 2 diabetes
This reversal of diabetes remains possible for at least 10 years after the onset of the condition

“I think the real importance of this work is for the patients themselves,” Professor Taylor says. “Many have described to me how embarking on the low calorie diet has been the only option to prevent what they thought – or had been told – was an inevitable decline into further medication and further ill health because of their diabetes. By studying the underlying mechanisms we have been able to demonstrate the simplicity of type 2 diabetes.”

Get rid of the fat and reverse Type 2 diabetes

The body of research by Professor Roy Taylor now confirms his Twin Cycle Hypothesis – that Type 2 diabetes is caused by excess fat actually within both liver and pancreas.

This causes the liver to respond poorly to insulin. As insulin controls the normal process of making glucose, the liver then produces too much glucose. Simultaneously, excess fat in the liver increases the normal process of export of fat to all tissues. In the pancreas, this excess fat causes the insulin producing cells to fail. http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2017/09/type2diabetesisreversible/
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/1047

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160322080542.htm:
"The study also answered the question that people often ask me -- if I lose the weight and keep the weight off, will I stay free of diabetes? The simple answer is yes! - Prof Roy Taylor

For further info Google Newcastle University Prof Taylor
The thing about Newcastle is that it only lasts for about 4 months then you go on to a maintenance diet. I did it for about 4 months and lost 11 and a half per cent of my weight. ( you usually have to lose about 15 %). I got my HbA1c dow to 40 and my fasting bGs down to 5.6 where they have stayed ever since despite my eating normal carbs. I have kept the weight off without any effort - to my surprise. I think my stomach must have shrunk. I have been eating normal carbs. I consider my T2 reversed. I am greatly relieved to have it out of the way as I have other co mormidities to deal with which won't go away so easily.

MikeyU · Apr 10, 2018

Tannith said:
The thing about Newcastle is that it only lasts for about 4 months then you go on to a maintenance diet. I did it for about 4 months and lost 11 and a half per cent of my weight. ( you usually have to lose about 15 %). I got my HbA1c dow to 40 and my fasting bGs down to 5.6 where they have stayed ever since despite my eating normal carbs. I have kept the weight off without any effort - to my surprise. I think my stomach must have shrunk. I have been eating normal carbs. I consider my T2 reversed. I am greatly relieved to have it out of the way as I have other co mormidities to deal with which won't go away so easily.

I have a very similar experience, although I didn't follow such a strict diet as the ND, in 3 months I lost 13 kg/16% by dramatically reducing carbs, eating less/smaller portions and exercising a lot. Recently I reintroduced carbs (right now about 100g a day) and my sugar levels seem to have stabilised, I do not spike anymore and my FBG has gone down to 5.1. I need to keep it on for much longer to see the trends of course but my stress levels have gone down dramatically in the last few days

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