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Anyone tried juice-fasting to bring sugar readings down?

Discussion in 'Vegetarian Diet Forum' started by Beating-My-Betes, Jan 8, 2021.

  1. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Many thanks :)
     
  2. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    No idea.... I have an odd allergy to bananas and swell up like a balloon if I eat one.. haven't tried one for decades and have no intention of doing so ever again.

    So far as I know fructose is fructose wherever it comes from HFCS or fruit.. not sure the body can tell the difference.

    How pray?
     
  3. Mike d

    Mike d Type 2 · Expert

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    If water does me damage, I'm in a lot of trouble
     
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  4. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    From what I have seen high carb diets work in societies that from birth to death do not incorporate junk food. I believe once the modern diet(s) have broken our systems in the form of Type 2, there is always a "remembrance", when eating high carb / sugars.

    The gent in the video did not use a CGM, that would have caught the spike, I will try to find an earlier reference that shows the importance of a CGM over a glucometer. In addition non-diabetics can show great blood glucose readings until the insulin no longer dampens the response well enough. The gent is young, I predict he will not be able to do that type of stunt at my age 53, an ex Type 2 would be decimated with that type of bolus of carbs. There are no societies prior, or in existence that eat this way, so we don't have observational data over decades within a population to review. Mic the Vegan did a similar test with not impressive results, I believe he is under 30 years old.

    The rest of his video is nonsense. The fat in the blood is triglycerides, mine are between 0.3 and 0.4 on stacks of the right type of fat, I also have a HOMA-IR under 1 which indicates insulin sensitivity - but eating half an organic apple with a normal meal for me raises my blood glucose by 0.4 mmol/L. If you open up another thread and ask Type 2's if the claims this gent is making is their experience the result will be overwhelming negative. All of the foods this gent mentioned (apart from the vegetable oils which I agree with), have been proven so many times to reverse diabetes to the point of boredom (in a good way) on this site, diet doctor, Eric Westman. Ted Naiman, David Unwin as the tip of the ice berg.

    As for the study, these are always against the SAD diet. The results I have seen drop HbA1c, which is great, but not by the amounts that are said to prevent complications i.e. HbA1c's of circa 7.5; with full respect, they tend to be around 20% in deficit of where my non RCT results are (and I am middle of the road, and not a Dr); should an amateur get get better longer term results than one of the most experienced published and influential persons in the world. My avatar shows 5 years of results with meat, fish, dairy, shell fish (and these foods have been in my diet for over 50 years, before, during and after diabetes - removed high carbs) - I would like to see consistent results below 6.5 A1c's, and then other biomarkers similar to Virta Health (mine as well) which Sara Hallberg within the last 2 weeks said beat the standard of care in circa 24 out of I think 28 areas. The carb levels Virta use are max 30 grams per day with compliance is measured by blood ketones, which means not high carb, no other competing protocol puts out their results; I have seen case studies from Dr Fung, Dr Westman and Dr Naiman, even non clinicians such as the Emmerich's which are also lower than the alternatives.

    The sat fat that is associated with heart disease has the number 16 (palmitic (https://www.bmj.com/content/355/bmj.i5796/rr-15 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(14)70166-4/fulltext) after it, this is created in the liver by sugar / carbs (not animal fats) - unfortunately pseudo science trumps fact for convenience, just as more people die with so called normal or low cholesterol numbers'

    I find it interesting that none of the Dr's who advocate this type of eating never show their blood panels, I am particularly interested in those over 50. I would wager their fasting insulin is either double figures or close, HDL low, Trigs high, muscle mass low - happy to be proved wrong, The reason you might want to discard these videos is a massive elephant in the room, they make the claim that meat etc causes diabetes - just by correlation. the majority on this site who are reversed eat meat, and those with the lowest HbA1c's are carnivores.

    I will stick my neck out and say, it is not possible for either a well controlled, reversed or in remission Type 2 to eat 2 mid sized ripe bananas and be under 7.8 mmol/L The 2 ways to get insulin sensitivity are diet and exercise. But it is important to remember athletes get pre and full diabetes, due to carb loading (Tim Noakes, Sami Inkinen, Peter Attia). I would suggest you wear a CGM when you start, this will clearly not be biased.
     
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  5. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    I found the video I referenced.

    This was Mic's first test
    Initial Test.PNG

    This is Mic's second test:
    Test @ 30.PNG

    Test @ 30 Monitor.PNG

    At the time of this video Mic did not declare himself as diabetic, and some of his fbg's indicates that he is clearing glucose over time better than a typical diabetic in my view. The video demonstrated for him the following:

    Eating a Vegan Pizza pushed his spike to 160 (8.8 mmol/L). With a next morning fbg of 110 (6.1). Keep in mind his initial was around 40 points lower.

    Eating Oatmeal and Apple was a 130 (7.2)

    Ethiopian Meal 160

    A meal of vegetables, brown rice, beans with turmeric and salad was a 160

    I think what Mic saw was standard responses. He is clearly not obese, is young - what would these meals do to his responses in 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years; this is what we don't know due to the "new-ness" of these eating patterns. Personally I work from where the rubber hits the road i.e. results, I would have a meltdown with any of the post prandial numbers and variances.
     
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  6. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Guru

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    Hi Everyone,

    I would remind you that this thread was specifically asking for input from people who have experience of juice fasts. It is also appropriately situated in the vegetarian section of the forum.

    This is not for members to launch into lectures on the pros of their chosen (non juice fasting) way of eating, or to promote those ways of eating, especially when they may be ethically or ideologically opposed to veganism or vegetarianism.

    We all get to choose how we eat, and how we manage our diet and our lifestyles. Please respect those choices in others, just as you expect to have your own choices respected by others.

    Further off topic posts will be deleted.
     
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    #46 Brunneria, Jan 9, 2021 at 2:43 PM
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  7. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    You said, "fructose (the sugar from fruit) is processed by the liver so has less impact on blood sugar". I suggested that you (dis)prove that claim to yourself by conducting a similar experiment (doesn't have to be bananas). I'm betting that as someone who has been avoiding carbs that your blood-sugar will absolutely reflect the extent to which you aren't able to handle sugar.

    Not sure why you are talking in such reductionist terms. In both of the videos I posted, the guys were consuming whole fruit. Whole fruit contains fructose, but also contains a lot of water, fibre, vitamins and minerals. Fruit also contains a percentage of fat and protein. High Fructose Corn Syrup is made by converting some of the glucose in the syrup to fructose, using enzymes. It is a by-product of an already-highly processed sugary syrup. Not sure you are conflating such a product with an apple, for instance.

    Even if you could argue that the isolated fructose in both was the same, the delivery method is not. like i said, natural fruit has many natural cofactors that make it a health food in a way that HFCS absolutely does not. If I gave you the option of of a teaspoon of table sugar or a teaspoon of sugar, added to a syrup made of cyanide, which would you choose? We might both agree that the teaspoon of sugar has the same effect, in either case. However, one option is clearly worse than the other.

    But I'd still be interested in a link to some studies that show that naturally-occurring fructose, from fruit, is at the root of NAFLD. All i've managed to find thus far (aside from the studies that implicate meat in NAFLD) are recommendations to not worry about fruit consumption, in terms of fructose.

    I mentioned there are potential dangers when conducting unsupervised water-fasts of more than 3-5 days. I'm not clear whether you were recommending extended fasts, or not.
     
  8. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Thank-you!

    I was actually about to write a similar post.

    I was looking for something very specific i.e experience (either good or bad) from anyone who'd done something similar, for tips and possible support. I did expect that it would be met with some incredulity and even some negativity, and was quite happy for that to happen as long it was friendly banter and hopefully with an interest to watch my progress.

    While I do now feel that I'm having to defend myself, I don't necessarily feel I'm being attacked. Nevertheless, I would prefer this thread to be left for anyone who is interested, without me having to justify myself on a daily basis.

    I do have views that differ from the majority of the community, but I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I certainly have no interest in trying to tell others what they should be doing. Since joining, I've just been happy playing word-games, and I'm happy to have found a nice little space within the veg(an) part of the forum.

    I would appreciate the opportunity to respond to Mbaker's last posts, as i feel some of the info is pertinent. But I'd appreciate if we could draw a line under it. From there, if anyone has anything off-topic that they're happy to discuss, then 'PM' me. For anyone else, please keep posting in this thread if any questions arise. Thanks, again.
     
  9. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    You asked I shared.

    However if you are feeling you have to defend yourself I'll leave you to it.
    Please be careful.
     
  10. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Guru

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    Hi @Beating-My-Betes

    if you wish to respond to any member with off topic subject matter, then feel free to use the private message system, to save derailing the thread. :)
     
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  11. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Guru

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    A number of posts have now been deleted from this thread for continuing the Off Topic discussion, after my request to stay on topic.

    any further such posts will be deleted, and the members who post them will be issued with thread bans.
     
  12. Petecavo

    Petecavo Type 2 · Newbie

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    Anything that you actually stick to that succeeds in losing excess weight longer term tends to help a type 2 (which I am also) - HOWEVER - by juicing your food I understand it allows the food to release its sugars easier.
    It is just another form of 'processing' but in this case you doing the 'processing' yourself rather than a food company.
    This tends to lower the Glycaemic Index of the food and can put you at risk of blood spikes soon after and maybe hunger pangs later.
    At the moment I am having success by using a Google spread sheet , and recording the Calories Carbs and (because I am a kidney transplant patient) the protein I consume on each meal.
    It totals each meal, then totals the day consumption and the shows me a weekly average against my targets I have set.

    I am simply limiting my Calories to 1200 cals per day - My carbs to 90 per day and my Protein to 80grms daily.
    And yes I do go over these a bit - hence why I set my targets low.
    Despite this since Oct 7th 2020 to today 12th Jan 2021 I have dropped from 92.7 kg's down to 85kgs (I am a 6'2" male)
    My blood sugar control has dramatically improved (78 down to 63) and my kidney function has also improved.
    I am now at 24 BMI and plan to continue to a BMI at the lower end of the 'healthy range' aiming for 20 BMI at the moment in an attempt to regain control.
    Best of all I have managed to ditch almost all medication with no Metformin anymore and virtually no Glic, (almost being that I have had 20mg once or twice a week if I have cheated at bit more than intended)
    This is despite being a diabetic for almost 20 years
    Lastly I had previously tried juicing and just couldn't stick at it.

     
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  13. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    D'ya mean raise the index?

    Removing the fibre has advantages and disadvantages. Essentially, the digestion is being done by the machine. As such, the juice is primed for utilisation and absorption. For anyone with insulin resistance, the hit can cause certain undesirable effects. However, these can be somewhat mitigated dependant on dosage. Where I find juice (And controversially, sugar) to be advantageous, is that because it doesn't need hours of digesting, any undesirable effects will disappear very rapidly (Again, this is dose-dependant).
    On the first day, I did experience a lot of hunger at various points. However, they didn't always coincide with timing after a 'meal'. They actually coincided with the same points in the day when i normally get hungry if doing intermittent fasting and when I tried OMAD, last year.

    I did break the fast, last night. Not really mentally ready to not eat. Had resolved (New year, and all that) to use a raw (fruit-heavy) vegan diet, to bring my sugars under control by the end of February. And because I failed to even manage the first week, I knee-jerked into a panicked reaction. However, in only two days I already received benefits:

    I started out on 'day 1', with sugars of 18.6 (unmedicated). This is the morning of 'day 3' (technically speaking), and my sugars have dropped to 12.7. The first number is the highest I've ever seen, and actually a result of clearing out the 'pantry' before starting the fast. That was somewhat of an artificial elevation, so I'd normally have expected that number to come down. But conversely, I haven't been that low for quite a while. And that drop resulting from drinking predominantly fruit-juice (and tea with sugar). I broke the fast with a jar of chickpeas, followed by about 200g of raisins which adds about 150g of carbs on top of the two days worth of juice etc. Also lost a couple of kilos, though that'll have been mostly water.

    After that meal of chickpeas and raisins I felt energised and well. I can't remember any other time, since my diagnosis, where eating a meal has left me feeling good (Aside from fruit meals, that is). And I've woken up this morning also with a ton of energy and feeling better than I have in a very long time.

    Not quite sure which path to take. I'm either going to keep juicing through the day and adding a cooked meal in the evening, or going the raw-vegan route (That will also include juicing). I'm pretty sure the first is a sliding slope, in which the evening meals start getting a little too decadent as time passes :D Will see. Gonna have a nice walk and think it through.




    Tracking is a good call. Will probably do the same, for a little while.

    Great results, man! As you alluded to earlier, weight-loss can be a huge driver in restoring metabolic wellness. And in many case, independent of other factors. People have improved their health-markers on Mc'Donalds diets, diets of nothing but potatoes, and I'm pretty sure that the guy who lost weight on a cake diet also improved his markers. That' not to say that slim people can't end up with bad numbers, but it's interesting nonetheless.

    Weight-loss is also a huge part of my plan. I've been either overweight or obese for most of my life. But I'm not prepared to either cut calories that much, or cut carbs that much. I plan to create my deficit through expenditure/exerci

    It's a mental-game, really. Intermittent fasting can be good training.
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  14. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Master

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    Are those in mmol and are they fasting readings or an average over the day?
     
  15. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Yes, in mmol...and fasted. Unfortunately I can't afford to be testing throughout the day.
     
  16. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Day 1.jpg Day 3.jpg


    Edited by moderator to remove content quoting previously removed text
     
    #56 Beating-My-Betes, Jan 13, 2021 at 12:32 PM
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2021
  17. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Haha @Pipp - Are you optimistic for me, or do you think I'm being over-optimistic? ;)
     
  18. Pipp

    Pipp Type 2 · Expert
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    Hi, again, @Beating-My-Betes .
    Not sure why you tagged me with this question, as I stepped back from your thread a few days ago, as I felt I had nothing further to offer.
    As you have made this direct question to me, I will respond. Though would add that I always believe one should only ask a question if they are sure they will be able to cope with the answer.

    My brief response? No, I am not optimistic for your chances of gaining good control using your method of juice fasting.

    Should you want a more detailed response, just ask.

    edit: Forgot to mention, I do think you are being over-optimistic.
     
    #58 Pipp, Jan 13, 2021 at 2:32 PM
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  19. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    I genuinely thought that you were being optimistic for me. At least I did the first time you left me a nice little rainbow. This time there was a niggling doubt. I thought I'd ask. Sorry to have put you on the spot.
    And I get not wanting anything to do with me or this thread, but why come back just to put a downer on my posts? Why not just ignore me?

    Ok.

    Firstly, I am actually transitioning over to a fruit version of the diet. Juicing will definitely be a part of that programme. Not sure that changes anything you'd want to say.

    I'd be very interested to read some solid evidence explaining why such a plan couldn't/wouldn't work. I've read many accounts of people bringing their sugars under control using different fasting protocols, including juice-fasting; certainly on a whole-foods, plant-based diet, even when fruit is eaten ad-libitum.

    Other than that, write what you want (Though that might need to be done by 'pm')

    As I come ever closer to my 50th year on this planet, I find I'm far more pessimistic that I'd ever have wanted myself to be (When I was younger, imagining myself as an older guy). I think I'm being pragmatic, in the sense that I think that a HCLF approach makes a lot of sense. However, I can see that in this community that opinion is distrusted.

    If your point is that I'm being over-optimistic about my own ability to stick to the plan, then absolutely. I've tried to make it work on many occasions before. But others have done it; enough to show reasonable doubt. If it's possible, then barring out the fact that I might have just become too metabolically deranged, then I should at least have the potential to do it.

    Over-pessimistic? Yeah! I'll take it ;)

    Will be starting a blog, from tomorrow, to record my attempt at bringing my blood-sugars under much better control, in 40 days. See ya there :)
     
  20. Pipp

    Pipp Type 2 · Expert
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    Oh dear, @Beating-My-Betes . How easily posts can be misunderstood.
    First of all, the reason I deemed a post of yours optimisic was that I really admire your optimism that the plan will work, even though I don’t share it. Whether or not you can stick to the plan, I don’t know you, so I cannot comment other than to say there is no shame in not sticking to it if you feel it is not working. I would love to be proved wrong, in my doubt that a high fruit diet will be successful way to control BG levels, and hope you can do that. Though having tried a diet high in fruit, and not much else, my experience did not have a happy outcome. In that I gained weight, and tipped into T2 diabetes. So in that respect I am not optimistic. Anecdotal evidence is all I am offering.

    I know how frustrating it can be to have a belief in one’s chosen path derided, and I am certainly not of the opinion that ‘my way is the only way’. I stepped back from posting because from your early posts it appeared that you were newly diagnosed and were asking for advice on how to manage. Though it later became apparent that you had researched your methodology, and were wondering if others had experience of your chosen method. When my suggestion of vegan low carb was rejected I realized I was on the wrong track. Though,I would still think that not a bad path for you to follow I respect your right to choose your own way.

    The only way for any individual to know what works for them is to try. Though I hope you can monitor closely what is happening with your blood glucose levels , and are prepared to change your plan if necessary. Although you have reduced your BG level, I would be most concerned should I have regular levels in double figures.

    As you don’t provide info regarding your diabetes type, the amount of weight you want to lose, etc, it is difficult to know what else I can offer to the topic. Other than to say that I hope you have a sustainable follow on eating plan. I believe you are sticking to the fruit plan until 23February?

    Please do update this thread to keep us informed of your progress. I do hope it will be a positive experience, but report either way please. Sharing info and experiences is the way to advance knowledge. I hope this is more encouraging for you. Best of luck.
     
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