Blood Pressure tablets - any conspiracy theories?

[barrym]

Hi

I always read with interest the opinions voiced on Statins, and have been sufficiently swayed by the arguments and evidence to stop taking them a few months ago.

After a recent visit to my diabetes consultant she said she was worried about my BP creeping up. I did a few tests myself and finally spoke to my GP about it.

I did take Ramapril years ago before my diabetes, but as I lost weight I came off them.

But I am getting older, which makes it rise, and apparently the guidelines have been changed. Instead of a broad brush 140/90 they have reduced it to 130/80 (according to my consultant although this site says 135/85).

There's no way I can get mine down to those limits without meds. Anyway I am concerned as to the source of the evidence and the motives. I did read in the last couple of weeks that new guidelines had put 4 million UK citizens in to hypertension! A great increase in market size;-)

So am I being cynical? There doesn't seem to be the same sort of argument against BP meds as there is against statins, but I just can't help feeling it's not as clear cut as it might be.

 

[Squire Fulwood]

There is no doubt that tightening limits sells more pills and I have no idea how contrived that is but my argument is of another kind.

Primary care is a good idea on the surface if it prevents future illness but how can you predict which illness. As a result they give you pills for everything. This brings on the next difficulty. Adverse side effects are possible with any pill and I have been unfortunate in that respect.

Since being diagnosed I have had periods of being quite unwell and for two separate months confined to a chair. All of these problems were traced to pills I didn't need at the time of taking them and may never have needed.

My DN gave me the paper they use to diagnose hypertension and according to it I didn't qualify but I was on pills for it. During a 24 hour blood pressure run I dozed off and got a reading of 88/33 which I thought was dangerous. There may be official risk targets but I think DN, with the best of intentions, is making her own up as she goes along.

 

[JohnEGreen]

On my last revue DN said my BP was on the low side if anything but I am still being prescribed BP tablets.

In fact after having stent grafted for AAA my BP plummeted so as to make them refuse to discharge me from the hospital till it came back up but at the same time they where giving me my BP medication crazy or what.

 

[dbr10]

Hi

I always read with interest the opinions voiced on Statins, and have been sufficiently swayed by the arguments and evidence to stop taking them a few months ago.

After a recent visit to my diabetes consultant she said she was worried about my BP creeping up. I did a few tests myself and finally spoke to my GP about it.

I did take Ramapril years ago before my diabetes, but as I lost weight I came off them.

But I am getting older, which makes it rise, and apparently the guidelines have been changed. Instead of a broad brush 140/90 they have reduced it to 130/80 (according to my consultant although this site says 135/85).

There's no way I can get mine down to those limits without meds. Anyway I am concerned as to the source of the evidence and the motives. I did read in the last couple of weeks that new guidelines had put 4 million UK citizens in to hypertension! A great increase in market size;-)

So am I being cynical? There doesn't seem to be the same sort of argument against BP meds as there is against statins, but I just can't help feeling it's not as clear cut as it might be.

My experience is that the diabetes made me lose about 2kg and a LCHF diet another 1.5kg. After that I came off all BP medications.

 

[ziggy_w]

Hi

I always read with interest the opinions voiced on Statins, and have been sufficiently swayed by the arguments and evidence to stop taking them a few months ago.

After a recent visit to my diabetes consultant she said she was worried about my BP creeping up. I did a few tests myself and finally spoke to my GP about it.

I did take Ramapril years ago before my diabetes, but as I lost weight I came off them.

But I am getting older, which makes it rise, and apparently the guidelines have been changed. Instead of a broad brush 140/90 they have reduced it to 130/80 (according to my consultant although this site says 135/85).

There's no way I can get mine down to those limits without meds. Anyway I am concerned as to the source of the evidence and the motives. I did read in the last couple of weeks that new guidelines had put 4 million UK citizens in to hypertension! A great increase in market size;-)

So am I being cynical? There doesn't seem to be the same sort of argument against BP meds as there is against statins, but I just can't help feeling it's not as clear cut as it might be.

Hi @barrym,

They have changed the limits for high blood pressure in the States (sometime last month), but I'm not aware that any of the European countries have followed suit yet, however many believe it will happen soon.

I agree with @Squire Fulwood and you that this will very likely lead to significantly higher sales for the pharma industry -- so they definitely have a vested interest in changing the guidelines.

Looking at your signature, it seems that you are already doing much of what leads to lower blood pressure.

However, your question started me thinking. (Please feel free to ignore the following if you are already doing this.)

Based on my understanding, it seems that inflamation in the body elevates blood pressure and adjusting your omega 3 to omega 6 ratio reduces inflamation -- so I briefly googled the effect of increasing your omega 3 intake on blood pressure. The brief search yielded several studies that report that the effect of increasing omega 3 tends to have a small, but significant effect.

Here is an excerpt from one of the websites http://www.clevelandheartlab.com/bl...-acids-a-natural-way-to-lower-blood-pressure/

The researchers pooled data from 70 randomized clinical trials (RCTs) examining the effect of EPA and DHA from seafood, fortified foods, or supplements, on adults with and without high blood pressure.
...
The analysis found that hypertensive study participants who received the Omega 3’s DHA and EPA had an average decrease in systolic pressure (the top number in the reading) of 4.51 mm Hg, while diastolic pressure fell an average of 3.05 mm Hg, compared to the placebo group.
​

Of course, this was only a cursory search and you might want to look into this a bit more -- .

​

 

[Rachox]

I’m on BP meds, Ramipril and Amlodipine. I’ve been on them for some years from before my Diabetes diagnosis. My GP has adjusted my doses to try to keep below 140/80, no mention of a change in those guidelines yet. Since low carbing and loosing over 4 stone my BP has come down and is now around 121/78. I’m experiencing dizziness when I get up quickly now, so I’m going to ask my GP at my next review if I can drop the Amlodipine. I’m not worried about cutting out the Ramipril as I’ve read that it helps protect the kidneys of Type 2s

 

[barrym]

Thanks for the comments.

I'm still very sceptical. One recommended limit for diabetics regardless of age. Hmm.

Revisiting stats from studies intended for other purposes and drawing conclusions seems a dubious methodology to me.

I'm 66 and whilst that is still young by today's standards, there seems to be this obsessive drive to extend life regardless of quality. I'm extremely likely to decline the meds I reckon.

 

[ziggy_w]

Thanks for the comments.

I'm still very sceptical. One recommended limit for diabetics regardless of age. Hmm.

Revisiting stats from studies intended for other purposes and drawing conclusions seems a dubious methodology to me.

I'm 66 and whilst that is still young by today's standards, there seems to be this obsessive drive to extend life regardless of quality. I'm extremely likely to decline the meds I reckon.

Hi @barrym,

I am not sure whether you are referring to the study on omega 3 fats or not.

Based on what I read the study mentions seems to be a good one. The study is a meta-analysis, which combines the results of all previous studies. This is a standard procedure when one wants to get an idea what the general consensus over the vast majority of studies in the field is. This one combines RCTs or randomized clinical trials. A randomized trial is kind of the gold standard in research because in assigns patients to treatments by chance, so that the most likely explanation for differences in outcomes is the treatment examined and not other factors such as age, weight, exercise status or other possible predictors.

 

[Bluetit1802]

According to my surgery, the target for diabetics is 140/80.
Also, for low BP, under 100/70 needs watching and under 90/60 is too low.

NICE has this to say - 140/90
https://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/hypertension#content=view-quality-statement:quality-statements-diagnosis-ambulatory-blood-pressure-monitoring

The British Heart Foundation says 140/90 "unless your doctor tells you otherwise"

In other words, no-one really knows.

 

[Mbaker]

I decided not to go down the drugs route. My numbers were 140 / 80. My blood pressure protocol is exercise, hand grips below (I have 2 of these. I grip for 2 minutes at about 30% max, rest for 2 mins and repeat 3 times. https://highbloodpressurebegone.com/handgrip-exercises/, https://www.livestrong.com/article/310443-hand-grip-exercises-blood-pressure/):

I also eat loads of vegetables, berries, currents and spices. Spinach and celery are great for lowering BP. I am now at 127 / 77 which I am delighted with. Coming from a Afro Carribean back ground this is a pretty good result (there is a lot of salt in our diets). With roasted garlic I can get the Systolic down to 121, but this is bad for my body ordour; I have been trying to find ordourless Garlic with the same active ingredients as regular Garlic.

 

[Daibell]

Hi. Yes, BP is a bit like statins i.e. the NHS wants you to take BP tablets as you age. I think the consultant wasn't correct and I believe the 140/80 is still the reference limit? If you Google the Internet you will find graphs that show BP increasing a lot with age but the graphs all end at around 65 - why? As I'm 73 I extrapolate the graphs to get my own reference! I always take a series of readings and give these to the surgery who are happy to average them and put them on my records - don't rely on high surgery readings. I believe the 140/80 reference is rather silly unless you relate it to age. The NHS seems to believe that when you are 60/70 you have to need these tablets based on that reference - I don't think so.

 

[Squire Fulwood]

In other words, no-one really knows.

Why am I not surprised

 

[ickihun]

My experience is that the diabetes made me lose about 2kg and a LCHF diet another 1.5kg. After that I came off all BP medications.

I'd love that to happen after bariatric surgery. Its common then too. Low carb gave me higher bp but on double strength betablocker and furosemide which reduces my bp to ideal range. Even after 4st loss.

 

[ickihun]

According to my surgery, the target for diabetics is 140/80.
Also, for low BP, under 100/70 needs watching and under 90/60 is too low.

NICE has this to say - 140/90
https://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/hypertension#content=view-quality-statement:quality-statements-diagnosis-ambulatory-blood-pressure-monitoring

The British Heart Foundation says 140/90 "unless your doctor tells you otherwise"

In other words, no-one really knows.

I wonder if 140/90 is for none diabetics but ideal for heart health in those people.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Dr. Malcolm Kendrick has some interesting opinions on blood pressure that are worth a read:

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2013/09/09/what-is-your-blood-pressure-bp/

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2012/04/02/does-treating-high-blood-pressure-do-any-good/

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/tag/healthy-blood-pressure/

 

[Bluetit1802]

Interesting links, @NoCrbs4Me As I said earlier, no-one knows what our blood pressure should be as long as we are all given tablets at some point. It also seems no-one is measuring it correctly.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Interesting links, @NoCrbs4Me As I said earlier, no-one knows what our blood pressure should be as long as we are all given tablets at some point. It also seems no-one is measuring it correctly.

Yes, but it is clear that lowering moderately elevated BP with drugs appears to have no benefits: ‘No randomised trial has ever demonstrated any reduction of risk either overall, or cardiovascular death by reducing systolic blood pressure to below 140mmHg.’

 

[ringi]

I’m on BP meds, Ramipril and Amlodipine. I’ve been on them for some years from before my Diabetes diagnosis. My GP has adjusted my doses to try to keep below 140/80, no mention of a change in those guidelines yet. Since low carbing and loosing over 4 stone my BP has come down and is now around 121/78. I’m experiencing dizziness when I get up quickly now, so I’m going to ask my GP at my next review if I can drop the Amlodipine. I’m not worried about cutting out the Ramipril as I’ve read that it helps protect the kidneys of Type 2s

I think that Ramipril only protects the Kidneys if BP is on the high side, but have not read any studies on it.

Unless you next review is very soon I think you should book a GP apointment to get your Amlodipine reduces as low BP is responible for lots of broken hips etc.

 

[Rachox]

I think that Ramipril only protects the Kidneys if BP is on the high side, but have not read any studies on it.

Unless you next review is very soon I think you should book a GP apointment to get your Amlodipine reduces as low BP is responible for lots of broken hips etc.

Thanks for your reply and your concern. My next review is soon, just nine days away. I’m being very cautious getting up so I’m prepared for the dizziness at the moment. I guess if I came off all BP meds my BP would go back up so that’s why I’d be happy to go back to just Ramipril, that was the first BP med I was put on. I’ll see what GP thinks is best.

 

[ringi]

Give your surgery a ring to see if they will lend your a 24hr BP monitor before the review - more data the bettter......